Enda not supporting David - Treaty

femur61

Just spoke to my brother in London, who is an accountant, they are very annoyed with the Irish for not supporting Cameron, they might look for their 7bn back yet soon.

Will this decision come to haunt us. Having a brief look this morning what they have agreed. One thing that struck me if we will be penalised for having a deficit, then is PS and SW going to have to take a massive hit? (BTW personally I think the PS are overpaid in this country)

the keen edge

I doubt they are very annoyed with us.

What meaningful support can we offer anybody on either side of the fence?.

hmmm

Cameron and the right of the Conservative party couldn't care less about the Micks. Let them dig their own hole in Europe, they have completely isolated themselves.

jc84

i don't think enda had any other option, he has more to lose being in the euro than david cameron, however there doesn't seem to be much support for the uk not signing up to this treaty here on boards, i think he did the absolute right thing for britain

can they just go looking for the 7bn back anytime if they wanted?

jc84

hmmm wrote: »

Cameron and the right of the Conservative party couldn't care less about the Micks. Let them dig their own hole in Europe, they have completely isolated themselves.

because he didn't bend over for merkel and sarkozy to allow them free reign over budgets and destroy the financial industry of london? ok, if there is finally a referendum to leave, i'll most likely be voting yes, has the uk ever gotten more from the EU than it contributes?

hmmm

jc84 wrote: »

because he didn't bend over for merkel and sarkozy to allow them free reign over budgets and destroy the financial industry of london? ok, if there is finally a referendum to leave, i'll most likely be voting yes, has the uk ever gotten more from the EU than it contributes?

I'm tired of this infantile "bending over" stuff - can we not have a civilised debate?

Access to the worlds largest market is vital for the UK yes. It also gives them much more diplomatic power than they'd otherwise have. So yes it is vital.

If the UK wants to leave, they'll have to negotiate access to EU markets anyway. That will come at a price.

As for Ireland leaving - the rest won't even notice we're gone, but as another thread is discussing at least we can retrain as fishermen.

WebGeek

hmmm wrote: »

Cameron and the right of the Conservative party couldn't care less about the Micks. Let them dig their own hole in Europe, they have completely isolated themselves.

Yes, and we'll be the goody two shoes of Europe, never capable of making our own choices again. At least Cameron has the balls to stand up to Merkozy, unlike the spineless Irish always looking for the handout.

meglome

WebGeek wrote: »

Yes, and we'll be the goody two shoes of Europe, never capable of making our own choices again. At least Cameron has the balls to stand up to Merkozy, unlike the spineless Irish always looking for the handout.

And yet it's 26-1, you'd almost think others have a different view.

Simtech

Why would they care? They'll get the jobs lost in the IFSC when the financial transaction tax comes in.

hmmm

Simtech wrote: »

Why would they care? They'll get the jobs lost in the IFSC when the financial transaction tax comes in.

You think the Europeans are going to bring in this tax and then simply allow their financial services industry walk away to London?

Now that the British are no longer involved, the French and Germans have a free hand to destroy what they can of the UK FSI and bring it back to their financial centres. Hopefully Ireland can get a piece of this also, us being the only native English speaking financial centre in the Eurozone will be vital.

The UK have walked away from the table where the rules are being made. Stupid mistake by Cameron, he didn't think his bluff would have been called.

R P McMurphy

femur61 wrote: »

Just spoke to my brother in London, who is an accountant, they are very annoyed with the Irish for not supporting Cameron, they might look for their 7bn back yet soon.

Will this decision come to haunt us. Having a brief look this morning what they have agreed. One thing that struck me if we will be penalised for having a deficit, then is PS and SW going to have to take a massive hit? (BTW personally I think the PS are overpaid in this country)

We have long ago agreed to minimize the deficit. If there had been a bit of foresight on our revenue streams the adjustment required would not be so big. What exactly would be gained in us heading in a similar direction to the UK? we would still require the adjustment. A large part of the current difficulties facing Ireland originated from the cheap credit flowing across the Irish sea not from the structural funds from Brussels

Chuck Stone

femur61 wrote: »

Just spoke to my brother in London, who is an accountant, they are very annoyed with the Irish for not supporting Cameron, they might look for their 7bn back yet soon.

Who's they?

Also the 7bn was a shot of adrenaline. The patient must kept alive because there is so much UK money and business in Ireland.

Personally I couldn't give a flying fuck what they think of us.

R P McMurphy

hmmm wrote: »

You think the Europeans are going to bring in this tax and then simply allow their financial services industry walk away to London?

Now that the British are no longer involved, the French and Germans have a free hand to destroy what they can of the UK FSI and bring it back to their financial centres. Hopefully Ireland can get a piece of this also, us being the only native English speaking financial centre in the Eurozone will be vital.

The UK have walked away from the table where the rules are being made. Stupid mistake by Cameron, he didn't think his bluff would have been called.

That is what I first thought when I saw Cameron's move. Could work out pretty well for Ireland to their detriment. Could be a financial services trade war looming

the keen edge

R P McMurphy wrote: »

That is what I first thought when I saw Cameron's move. Could work out pretty well for Ireland to their detriment. Could be a financial services trade war looming

How are Irish financial services viewed globally at the minute?.

Surely recent events must have impacted on them in a negative light?.

snubbleste

hmmm wrote: »

Hopefully Ireland can get a piece of this also, us being the only native English speaking financial centre in the Eurozone will be vital.

em, what about that other eurozone english-speaking warmer climate country, Malta ?

hmmm

snubbleste wrote: »

em, what about that other eurozone english-speaking warmer climate country, Malta ?

No financial services industry to speak of, lack of qualified accountants and graduates, poor comms and air travel links (relative to Ireland).

woodoo

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Who's they?

Also the 7bn was a shot of adrenaline. The patient must kept alive because there is so much UK money and business in Ireland.

Personally I couldn't give a flying fuck what they think of us.

I agree and they are making a profit on that loan anyway. It was all signed off. The have no business calling in in early.

DJCR

They should either join the Euro and contribute constructively to the discussions or leave the EU and go sit in the corner.

Thats for the 7bn + interest .... sound of ye to give us money to continue buying your stuff (Symptomatic of what Germany and France have been doing for years hence the reason why we are in this mess).

KINGVictor

hmmm wrote: »

You think the Europeans are going to bring in this tax and then simply allow their financial services industry walk away to London?

Now that the British are no longer involved, the French and Germans have a free hand to destroy what they can of the UK FSI and bring it back to their financial centres. Hopefully Ireland can get a piece of this also, us being the only native English speaking financial centre in the Eurozone will be vital.

The UK have walked away from the table where the rules are being made. Stupid mistake by Cameron, he didn't think his bluff would have been called.

You have been repeating this line in several threads, seems to me you are desperately trying to convince yourself that the situation you describe is an imminent possibility. To think that France and Germany have destroyed their British enemy and are ready to share the spoils among themselves and throw some Ireland's way is very naive. How are you coming to these conclusions?

The situation is very fluid and volatile. No one is sure about the eventual outcome, lots of hurdles to overcome. Despite all the smiles and camaraderie displayed yesterday by Merkozy and others, they are still very worried( rightly so) about the future of the Euro and how they are going to implement this inter-governmental agreement. Even the federalists are against inter-governmentalism in Europe , Guy Verhofstadt, the former Belgian PM has threatened to go to court over the agreement because it sets a dangerous precedent for the EU. This is because member countries can in future form sub-groups to make agreements separately.

The FT reports that:

Mr Cameron found strange bedfellows in Brussels’ most ardent EU federalists. Guy Verhofstadt, the former Belgian prime minister who is the European Parliament’s most outspoken advocate of a United States of Europe, threatened to take EU leaders to court if they proceeded with a treaty outside EU strictures.

Your assertion that Europe would now swamp on the city and share the loot amongst themselves is just an illusion.

meglome

KINGVictor wrote: »

You have been repeating this line in several threads, seems to me you are desperately trying to convince yourself that the situation you describe is an imminent possibility. To think that France and Germany have destroyed their British enemy and are ready to share the spoils among themselves and throw some Ireland's way is very naive. How are you coming to these conclusions?

The situation is very fluid and volatile. No one is sure about the eventual outcome, lots of hurdles to overcome. Despite all the smiles and camaraderie displayed yesterday by Merkozy and others, they are still very worried( rightly so) about the future of the Euro and how they are going to implement this inter-governmental agreement. Even the federalists are against inter-governmentalism in Europe , Guy Verhofstadt, the former Belgian PM has threatened to go to court over the agreement because it sets a dangerous precedent for the EU. This is because member countries can in future form sub-groups to make agreements separately.

The FT reports that:

Mr Cameron found strange bedfellows in Brussels’ most ardent EU federalists. Guy Verhofstadt, the former Belgian prime minister who is the European Parliament’s most outspoken advocate of a United States of Europe, threatened to take EU leaders to court if they proceeded with a treaty outside EU strictures.

The situation is fluid but I've been wondering about what hmmm said for months now. Every since I heard the conservatives were going to have a referendum on EU membership. With the anti-EU media in the UK they could easily vote no and I wondered was that an advantage to us. I'm certainly no expert but it does seem quite possible.

jc84

hmmm wrote: »

You think the Europeans are going to bring in this tax and then simply allow their financial services industry walk away to London?

Now that the British are no longer involved, the French and Germans have a free hand to destroy what they can of the UK FSI and bring it back to their financial centres. Hopefully Ireland can get a piece of this also, us being the only native English speaking financial centre in the Eurozone will be vital.

The UK have walked away from the table where the rules are being made. Stupid mistake by Cameron, he didn't think his bluff would have been called.

the uk will attract even more financial investment, the financial tax will apply to all european countries except the uk, it will serve europe right if they lose their financial services to the uk

hmmm

hmmm wrote: »

You think the Europeans are going to bring in this tax and then simply allow their financial services industry walk away to London?

Now that the British are no longer involved, the French and Germans have a free hand to destroy what they can of the UK FSI and bring it back to their financial centres. Hopefully Ireland can get a piece of this also, us being the only native English speaking financial centre in the Eurozone will be vital.

The UK have walked away from the table where the rules are being made. Stupid mistake by Cameron, he didn't think his bluff would have been called.

What planet are you living on?

The IFSC is simply a transferring and holding depot for hedge money, any financial tax and the IFSC will be gone overnight. The rest of the EU doesnt even come close to the city of London in clout. They are sucking the hind tit of the UK in every possible manner when it comes to financial services, hence Camerons stance.


How exactly are the Europeans going to stop JP Morgan, BOA, State street et al leaving the IFSC for London?
Do you think the US multinationals give a **** about the EU or what they think.

They might be able to stop BNP Paribas, deutsche bank and a few of the other Euro banks from leaving and thats about it, does us a fat lot of good.

David109

There was an item on BBC Radio4 5 O'Clock news where one of Gordon Brown's former financial gurus raised the fear that all Euro business in London could transfer to Frankfort, or Dublin. Didn't catch his name.

RTE 1 News at 6 had Micheal McGrath fearing Dublin would lose to London instead.

hmmm

Gage Aggressive Lambaste wrote: »

What planet are you living on.

Where are you getting this strange idea that the Eurozone is going to unilaterally impose a tax and wipe out their financial services industry? Fantasy. The French have been pushing for the tax, but they know they can't apply it unless the rest of the world joins them.

jc84

hmmm wrote: »

Where are you getting this strange idea that the Eurozone is going to unilaterally impose a tax and wipe out their financial services industry? Fantasy. The French have been pushing for the tax, but they know they can't apply it unless the rest of the world joins them.

well they obviously are pressing ahead with it otherwise cameron would not have vetoed. it does not matter what the rest of the world does, if the eu decide to impose a tax on financial transactions within the eu there's nothing to stop them

Dirk Gently

This is a no brainer for Ireland tbh. a clear choice between being an active member of the euro and the european market with tighter fiscal rules and more financial regulation or to go it alone and go down the route of moving to the right with light touch financial regulation. It's nice to be neighbourly and all but the Brits are big enough to go it alone, were not. They reckon their financial services is worth appeasing, we dont have that choice to make. Our interests lie a unified fiscally responsible europe. Either way we'll never out compete the city of london for financial services which ever route we take. I don't want to try either.

ambid

femur61 wrote: »

Just spoke to my brother in London, who is an accountant, they are very annoyed with the Irish for not supporting Cameron, they might look for their 7bn back yet soon.

Will this decision come to haunt us. Having a brief look this morning what they have agreed. One thing that struck me if we will be penalised for having a deficit, then is PS and SW going to have to take a massive hit? (BTW personally I think the PS are overpaid in this country)

The UK didn't loan us money because they were feeling charitable. Their banks have £90 billion worth of exposure to failed Irish banks, and their loan was to try to keep those banks solvent.

They can't call in their loan and even if they could they would suffer even greater losses if that action caused those banks to collapse.

Their loan was made out of self-interest. It was not an act of charity.

hmmm

hmmm wrote: »

Where are you getting this strange idea that the Eurozone is going to unilaterally impose a tax and wipe out their financial services industry? Fantasy. The French have been pushing for the tax, but they know they can't apply it unless the rest of the world joins them.

Why do you think Cameron vetoed it, they are bringing it in. Fair enough for them because they can put pressure on their banks to stay, we on the other hand will be destroyed with this implemented.

The majority of the fund companies here are American, I see absolutely no reason they will stay here. If I am the client services manager for Bank of America in Dublin, how am I going to persuade the small fund manager in the states to still use BOA in Dublin as their custodian, when every transaction they do will be taxed?

There is no chance they will stay, the banks clients will just move their business to somewhere that doesn't tax them and so the banks will be forced to move.

The clients of the banks will force the banks hand in this matter.

liammur

Ireland had no choice. Everyone knows this, none more so than the British. If a Eurozone country hadn't agreed, all hell would have broken loose on the markets, and as it is, they are fairly jittery.

hmmm

Gage Aggressive Lambaste wrote: »

Why do you think Cameron vetoed it, they are bringing it in.

Cameron vetoed more than that, primarily he vetoed increased
financial regulation that would have disproportionately affected the city. The UK wants the benefit of access to EU financial markets while retaining minimal regulation, it was never going to be allowed after everything that has happened.


I see opportunity in all this, you see doom and gloom. Fair enough.

Raskolnikov

hmmm wrote: »

Where are you getting this strange idea that the Eurozone is going to unilaterally impose a tax and wipe out their financial services industry? Fantasy. The French have been pushing for the tax, but they know they can't apply it unless the rest of the world joins them.

It's being widely reported that the financial tax and corporate tax harmonization is a joint initiative.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16075890

"We must strengthen growth through competitiveness and convergence of the economic policies of eurozone members at least," said the letter from French President Nicolas Sarkozy and German Chancellor Angela Merkel.

It called for "a new common legal framework fully compatible with the internal market", covering:

* financial regulation;
* the labour market;
* convergence and harmonisation of the corporation tax base and introduction of a financial transaction tax;
* policies that support growth and a better use of European funds within the eurozone.

I can't believe that no one is addressing the real issue here, that is the attack on Ireland's democracy. If these proposals are to be pushed through, it will probably mean the biggest constitutional change to the country since independence. Surely this is something that should be put to the people? Or are Irish people just too stupid to be allowed to express their opinion on this? Open question...

Crazy Horse 6

femur61 wrote: »

Just spoke to my brother in London, who is an accountant, they are very annoyed with the Irish for not supporting Cameron, they might look for their 7bn back yet soon.

Will this decision come to haunt us. Having a brief look this morning what they have agreed. One thing that struck me if we will be penalised for having a deficit, then is PS and SW going to have to take a massive hit? (BTW personally I think the PS are overpaid in this country)

Cameron did what was best for the British and Enda did what was best for the European elite.

Neddyusa

hmmm wrote: »

The UK have walked away from the table where the rules are being made.

It is generally a good idea to walk away from a table that is on fire:rolleyes:

View

jc84 wrote: »

the uk will attract even more financial investment, the financial tax will apply to all european countries except the uk, it will serve europe right if they lose their financial services to the uk

The tax can be brought in under existing EU single market rules by QMV. The veto doesn't alter that - it merely annoys everyone else by requiring the treaty to be outside the EU structures. Annoying someone is not generally a good diplomatic strategy particularly when they can outvote you using QMV rules.

nesf

Raskolnikov wrote: »

It's being widely reported that the financial tax and corporate tax harmonization is a joint initiative.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16075890

I can't believe that no one is addressing the real issue here, that is the attack on Ireland's democracy. If these proposals are to be pushed through, it will probably mean the biggest constitutional change to the country since independence. Surely this is something that should be put to the people? Or are Irish people just too stupid to be allowed to express their opinion on this? Open question...

What they are talking about is a Tobin tax which is a tiny tax on the exchanging of currencies from one currency to another. It was designed originally to dampen down speculation and reduce volatility in the currency markets by discouraging day trading in currencies or very fast flipping of positions. That said it only works if everyone does it, otherwise currency traders just move their business elsewhere.

It's a good idea but basically the US and UK would have to be on board for it and I can't see that happening.

nesf

nesf wrote: »

What they are talking about is a Tobin tax which is a tiny tax on the exchanging of currencies from one currency to another. It was designed originally to dampen down speculation and reduce volatility in the currency markets by discouraging day trading in currencies or very fast flipping of positions. That said it only works if everyone does it, otherwise currency traders just move their business elsewhere.

It's a good idea but basically the US and UK would have to be on board for it and I can't see that happening.

thats one way of putting it!

A tax makes transactions less efficient and means equilibriums are reached at a slower pace.

To hell with free markets, I dont think we should have agreed to this. The next thing will be to rig markets like we have done the property market. France sucks - their unemployment rate was high during the boom times and remains so and its because of their economic model. Adopting this kind of model Europe wide is a terrible idea

mistermouse

I do wish our guys would make a firmer stand in Europe once and a while but the deal hasn't been fleshed out yet, Cameron should probably have stayed in and fought his corner, then walked if it wasn't to his liking.

Cameron played to his own party more than anything, getting out before knowing or contributing to the process, now he cant at all.

Getting back to the OP, no one in Britain could really expect us as a member of the Euro Block to just pull out. Britain aren't in the Euro, we are, we have many less options especially as we're bankrupt. They surely couldn't have even expected us to. I'd think they are more annoyed with the original co-objectors who deserted them during the night.

Cameron should really have stayed in, fought for a good deal and then, have asked us for support. Not have left for party politics before the party began (pardon the Pun)

Sand

Well, unquestioning and unreasoning deference to EU authority seems to be the default Irish position so I'm not sure it was ever in doubt where Enda's vote would fall.

That said, a stopped clock is right twice a day and Enda probably landed on the right side of the issue. Theres nothing announced so far that is any more encouraging than the last half-dozen "The Crisis Is Over!!!" summit announcements, but it appears that Cameron very much overplayed his hand in the negotiations and his bluff was called. It appears he was looking for "safeguards" and "opt-outs" which were already protected under existing treaties, and the rest of the EU simply werent willing to pay the structural and political price Cameron needed to appease his raving loony wing. He misjudged the mood, got isolated, and now has to make the best of it. I also dont think that theres anything particularly permament here - theres a lot of huffing and puffing on both sides where theyre saying "Didnt want you around anyway, /sulk" but once tempers cool the realities of the situation will dawn - the UK needs the EU, the EU needs the UK. An upcoming change of leadership in France for example could dramatically change the tone of the relationship with the UK.

Ireland didnt go along with Camerson's bad play, which is lucky, but I wouldnt think the Irish actually thought it out in any way - they just went with the default "Do whatever the man from the EU/ECB says to do". We shouldnt mock the raving loony fanatics that Cameron is suddenly being hero-worshipped by: It wasnt so long ago Sarkozy had to fly over here to appease our own raving loonies who wanted assurances that conscription for the eastern front, mandatory abortion, outlawing of the catholic church, etc, etc wouldnt be imposed by the EU.

Plus theres absolutely nothing in the the Franco-German announcement that demonstrates theyre doing anything more than appeasing their own raving lunatic wing...

nesf

Deleted User wrote: »

thats one way of putting it!

A tax makes transactions less efficient and means equilibriums are reached at a slower pace.

To hell with free markets, I dont think we should have agreed to this. The next thing will be to rig markets like we have done the property market. France sucks - their unemployment rate was high during the boom times and remains so and its because of their economic model. Adopting this kind of model Europe wide is a terrible idea

Reducing volatility versus reaching equilibrium faster, you don't win cleanly either way tbh.