pay as you save?

Gareth2011

Hi All,
Back in 2010 pat Rabbite was at an energy conference and they said they were going to set up a system called "pay as you save". The grants that are in place at the mo are finishing up in 2014 I think. The pay as you save is where your energy supplier pays a company to do it for you and you pay it back through your energy bills over a number of years maybe even 20 years. Its really for people who cant afford to pay upfront to get the work done then claim it back.

Anyone heard anymore bou it recently on if it was def hapening or not?

Dirk Gently

what work are you talking about? Insulation / boiler change overs?

Gareth2011

Not too sure of what extent they will do it but I do know for sure it will involvle the insulation side of things as Ireland has to have 1 Million buildings brought upto code by 2020 with regard to ommisions etc. Even with the grants only 20 or 30 thousand buildings have been done and they reckon its because people don't have the money upfront to pay for it. And its true. My house has little or no insulation in it (supidly bought like this) but I cant afford to pay for it upfront so the pay as you save would be ideal. Don't know bout boilers change overs etc. I just remembered it was mentioned in April or May of this year again but thats it.

Dirk Gently

I was looking into insulation myself recently. Board Gais actually do it through your bills. You pay them back over the space of a year. The problem is they've outsourced everything which doubled their prices over everyone else. For example, you get a 60 euro grant towards a ber cert, however board gais charge you €275 for the cert, less your grant. In reality you can get a ber for between 100-150 euro.

Over all I was quoted 1900 by board gais compared to between 800 and 1000 euro by other private contractors. I've decided to bite the bullet and pay the cash upfront rather than pay over the odds through monthly bills. That will mean sometime in the new year, mostly like after the cold spell but half price is half price. I own several woolly jumpers and an electric blanket to insulate me from board gais instalment prices over the winter.

I would imagine instalments over bills to pay for work would be a commercial decision by each company rather than government policy. Grant or no grant, you either pay up front or over several years.

Gareth2011

Wow big difference there. Im with Airtricity and don't think they have done anything yet must find out if they do. I can do the attic myself I found a company that is selling the rolls of insulation called climowool for 15 a roll. thats for the 100,150 and 200 mm. Covers 6. something meters per roll I think. Can send you the company in pm if you want rolled attic insulation and do it yourself if your want to do it that way. Im saying do it yourself so you dont have the cost of the contractor but you only get grant if you are doing more than one insulation job. eg (Cant just do attic insulation and get grant has to be attic and walls lets say) Plus min grant is 400 for first time. I was looking at doing my attic, paying for it and then getting walls done but claiming for both at same time but dont think I cant do it that way.

Dirk Gently

be careful doing it youself. The grant is for insulation carried out by contractors signed up to the scheme. You also need to have 95% of the house insulated, that only leaves you with 5% of the total area to play with. For example, I have a front porch which consists of 7% of my total area, the porch is double brick as opposed to cavity wall like the rest of the house which means I'd have to dry line the inside of that in order to bring the insulated area up over 95% and avail of the full 600 euro grant.

Before you do anything, make sure you qualify for the grant. I'd suggest booking board gais to come out and survey the house for you, if nothing else it gives you all the facts and figures and materials you need. Then get someone else to quote you off their data (don't show them the board gais price though ). My neighbour got his walls pumped by a contractor but then told him he'd do the attic himself. I warned him and the contractor warned him that he may not be able to insulated the attic up to spec in order to qualify. He went ahead anyway, rolled insulation in the attic himself and alas, didn't get the grant because he left cold bridges everywhere. The contractor offered to pump between the joists and then cover the whole lot again with 150mm of solid insulation plied with reflective material on each side, a great system which really works as I've been in homes who had it done and they are like saunas.

Be sure to qualify before doing work yourself. Thats the chance you take by doing it DIY. No point saving 100 euro on a contractor if you lose 600 on the grant.

Gareth2011

Yes I know what your saying. If im doing it myself I wouldnt be looking for a grant because as you said it has to be done by a registered contractor on the seai list. But if I was getting it done by contractor id get the lot done by them. Thats another reason The energy companies are looking to do it too is that you wont need to qualify for the grant because you pay it back in instalements not upfront like if your going for grant.

Dr Galen

This isn't really a Politics thread OP. I think it would be much better in another forum. I'll move it over to an appropriate one and let the Mods there decide the best place for it

CHeers

DrG

Gareth2011

no prob I only thought afterwards I was in the wrong place.

Dirk Gently

Gareth2011 wrote: »

Yes I know what your saying. If im doing it myself I wouldnt be looking for a grant because as you said it has to be done by a registered contractor on the seai list. But if I was getting it done by contractor id get the lot done by them. Thats another reason The energy companies are looking to do it too is that you wont need to qualify for the grant because you pay it back in instalements not upfront like if your going for grant.

Actually you can qualify for the grant with the energy companies. They apply for you when they complete the work. You pay back installments amounting to the full price, less the grant, but like I said earlier, bord gais seem to be the only ones doing it so far and they have priced themselves out of the market because they outsourced everything. Your grant money is basically going to pay their overheads.

They hire a surveyor to price up the job, hire the ber assessor, hire an outside contractor to do the work and set up a seperate account in a seperate department (possibly outsourced too) to handle repayments. All that outsourcing means in order for them to make money on it they have to charge extra on top of the market value. A private contractor will price up the job himself for free, quote you for the work and then you apply for your grant. cuts out all the middle men.

In truth, if you want a grant you should do your best to save the price of the work from a contractor and then apply for he grant. I know installments sound good but you end up paying way over the odds, especially if as you say the scheme you mention is a replacement for the grant system. It is a tough choice when you dont have the money to fork out straight away but it's worth working towards, even if it takes you another 6 or 9 months to save it before getting the work done. Having said that I stopped buying oil last febuary and just use a wood stove to heat the sitting room so I'm not pissing away oil. If you are pissing away fuel it could be worth going the installment route to reduce that fuel bill sooner than later.

I chose to put my oil bill towads a stove and insulation rather than keep pouring money into oil. Last winter I went through most of my tank in 2 months, not having the house insulted cost me big time. I'll be getting the insulation done in the new year by private contractor, too late for this winter pobably but once done my fuel bills will come down and I can turn the thermostat down on the boiler in future. The difference the pumped walls and properly done atic make to a house is amazing. you use much less fuel and the heat stays in the house long after you turn the heat off.

My advise for best value for money is getting it done by private contractor and applying for grant unless you have no other option but to go with installments. Even in doing it yourself, I still reckon after being in a few homes which got it done, and seeing for myself the difference it makes to heating previously cold houses that it's worth paying a contractor to do the job right, you'll save in the long run. No point in doing the attic if your walls aren't pumped and you wont pump yourself cheaper than a contractor. dry lining you could do yourself but thats dearer again.

Gareth2011

I would perfere to get it done by contractor alright. My walls are solid 215mm on the old part of the house I believe the newer part (bout 7 or 8 years old) has cavity and has dpc in the walls. Dont know about the walls being insulated but with the last owners not bothering to insulate the walls or attic im guessing they didnt pump the walls either but il get that checked. The original front part was built in 1940's you see so il either have to get the internal insulation which takes space away from the rooms or the external rendering. I cant get the walls pumped cause their solid block not cavity. I'm the same I dont bother with the oil while it heats the rads up great its just wasting it with no insulation. I got pallets and I have some left still along with logs I have drying in garage.

As im typing this I can see my breath in the room cause its at front of house so im hoping the snow stays away cause it makes it even worse.

How much do you think it would cost to get attic insulated with 300mm and get walls done? Im thinking few grand at least. Have you any opinion on it?

JohnnieK

If something like this dose happen it will squeeze small sole traders like myself, and smaller installation companies out of the market and put even more people on the live register. And as a sole trader if I do go to the wall there's no social welfare for me and I'm the only one working in my house so it could lead to my house been repossessed when I fall behind on payments. Good man Pat Rabbit:mad:

Gareth2011

Is there any big insulation companys out there? I thought you were all smalll guys. Tbh they need a million buildinga insulated by 2020 to comply with Europe and the current grant system is due to end in 2014. They do need to do something for people who cant afford to pay upfront to get insulation. The paying it through your energy bill can do that and as Dirk said in previous post Board Gais source out their work so there is nothing to say you wont get onto theirs or the other electricy companies list as a registered installer. But fear not I believe its not due to fully come into force till 2013