Christianity and homosexuality

sunflower27 · 08-12-2011 7:32pm #1

I am new to this forum, but was reading another thread today and it got me thinking....

I was brought up Catholic, fairly staunchily so, until I was 15.

Anyway, I am not gay, but was thinking today how the Bible looks at homosexuality.

Surely a person is born this way. So why then should they be considered flawed or wrong?

I have seen threads on boards over the years about people being tormented about 'coming out', the anxiety they face is paramount.

If God created us all, then why should anyone judge anyone for being gay as wrong? In particular the Bible's take on homosexuality. It just seems so hypocrital to me on so many levels.

Apologies if this has been touched on here a hundred times, I just wanted to see what people think.

Terrlock · 08-12-2011 7:48pm

I believe in God.

I believe that the BIBLE is the word of God.

Me thinking that gay is right or wrong doesn't matter.

We are all sinners, every one of us.

What matters is what does God say?

Who am I to judge someone for being gay, if I lie.

Who am I to judge someone for being gay if I steal.

Who am I to judge someone for being gay if I commit adultery.

I am just as much as sinner as everyone else.

So what I think or what any man thinks doesn't matter.

Nobody has the right to Judge anyone else.

Jesus teaches this when they all wanted to stone the women for being a prostitute.

He said those who have not sinned may cast the first stone.

They all walked away because they have all sinned in different ways.

And he himself did not condemn her, but told her to live her life free from sin. from then on. He saved her from the sin that if he wasn't there would have killed her.

It is only by the Mercy of God that we are saved.

It is only by accepting Jesus as Christ your saviour and allowing the Holy Spirit to live our lives for us that we are saved.

The whole point to this life is to free ourselves from this invisible prison of sin that we all create for ourselves.

Only when we are free of that can we live the best life we were meant too.

sunflower27 · 08-12-2011 7:54pm

So why is homosexuality deemed so wrong in the Bible?

None of us are free from sin, but homosexuality is specifically documented as wrong?

I just don't understand why this is so. I have gay friends, absolutely lovely human beings.

Why the need to document it so?

I know Jesus did not write the Bible, but why was it in there that it is a sin? It is NOT a sin. When we think of the awful and cruel acts people are capable of, why is loving someone in a physical way of the same gender considered wrong?

Onesimus · 08-12-2011 8:11pm

Cathechism of the Catholic Church

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

******

You May also want to Ask An Apologist for further explanation or browse the Catholic answers forum ( link provided in this paragraph ) for already answered questions relating to your topic and you will find your answer that way also.

I hope this helps.

mikom · 08-12-2011 8:15pm

Onesimus wrote: »

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity.

Basically become a priest.
Talk about being shortchanged.

Terrlock · 08-12-2011 8:40pm

Homosexuality is documented as being an abomination to the Lord.

It's not any worse or better then any other sin.

Have you read the Bible yourself?

If you break 1 commandment its the same as breaking them All.

Onesimus · 08-12-2011 8:42pm

mikom wrote: »

Basically become a priest.
Talk about being shortchanged.

Your confusing the word chastity with abstinence and celibacy

anyone can ''abstain'' from physical sex but if it's done without love then it's of no worth at all.

The following is chastity:

''2337 Chastity means the successful integration of sexuality within the person and thus the inner unity of man in his bodily and spiritual being. Sexuality, in which man's belonging to the bodily and biological world is expressed, becomes personal and truly human when it is integrated into the relationship of one person to another, in the complete and lifelong mutual gift of a man and a woman.

The virtue of chastity therefore involves the integrity of the person and the integrality of the gift.''

So what every person is called to do is to live out the truth of Gods design for man and woman in the state of each life that one is called albeit single life, marriage or religious celibacy.

So everyone is called to recognise Gods truth of design for their sexuality and live that out in whatever state they be and thats called chastity.

Terrlock · 08-12-2011 8:42pm

Therefore, again I tell you, who you choose defines what you do...

And one who chooses Me will not sin.

Yet anyone who chooses another, and not Me, has denied Me and has sinned...

For to disobey God is sin.

Again, to deny Me, for the sake of another,
Or to choose anything of this world instead of Me, is to sin against Me.

Yet anyone who calls on My name, in true repentance,
With sincere remorse in their hearts over that which they have done, shall be saved...

For Love has saved them.

Therefore, thus says The Lord to all His people:

Here I am!... Choose Me.

philologos · 08-12-2011 8:44pm

Terrlock: Just brilliant. Thank you for posting the clear Gospel truth about the amazing grace secured for us through Jesus. What a perfect way to discuss this topic.

God calls us all to live by His Word in holiness. Being holy meaning nothing more than being set apart from the world to live for Jesus. That's all that Christians are trying to do. We stand firm by His Word because it shows itself to be true in every respect of our lives. The world tries to resist His truth, but ultimately it is more valuable than gold or silver. I follow Him because His testimony is more secure than anything we'll ever hear from man.

sunflower27: What do you think sin is? - For Christians it seems to be what is against God's standard. Sin isn't declared by man, it is declared by God Himself. I have no authority to claim that something is a sin or something isn't. No man does. What I can do is point to what God has given us through the Bible, and say that that is His Word that we should aim to listen to.

It's important to note that Christian teaching on sexuality is a tiny part of what Christianity is, but it is still a part of it. Christians must consider all of God's Word and the impact that it should have on peoples lives. Every facet of it - business dealings, how we relate to society, how we relate to Government, how we relate to family, friends, unbelievers, how we work, how we play, our priorities, our weaknesses, and our successes. All areas of our life must be done for God's glory.

Ultimately we can live for Him which is for our ultimate good, or live solely for ourselves which is to our ultimate detriment.

headmaster · 08-12-2011 8:48pm

The fact that THEY themselves feel THEY have to come out says it all. It's clear from the trauma of coming out that they know themselves they are not normal. Nothing else to say really, they say it all themselves. Then throw in their tantrums and tempers at anyone questioning their sexuality and you have it all. I guess i'll now have to suffer for having an opinion, h'mm.

The Quadratic Equation · 08-12-2011 8:52pm

Just because someone was born with the urge to carry out certain acts and practices, does not make these acts and practices correct, nor does it mean they must act on them. Catholicism disapproves of homosexual acts for Catholics, not homosexuals. There is a huge difference. You can be Catholic and homosexual. Also remember Catholicism disapproves of hetrosexual sex outside marriage for Catholics as well. Sex is especially for the loving procreation of human life, not for personal lust.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0sILSapUUc

mikom · 08-12-2011 8:54pm

headmaster wrote: »

The fact that THEY themselves feel THEY have to come out says it all. It's clear from the trauma of coming out that they know themselves they are not normal.......

........ in the eyes of others

Onesimus · 08-12-2011 8:55pm

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Just because someone was born with the urge to carry out certain acts and practices, does not make these acts and practices correct.

Thats the Elephant in the room. There is no scientific proof that they were born with homosexual tendencies. It is a phsychological disorder. many married men often have attractions to the opposite sex throughout their life and then suddenly become gay. I know many who have attended a phsychologist and after some therapy returned to their wives and were turned away from homosexuality and back to their true state. This all the more proves they were not born with it and that it is clearly a pshychological state.

sunflower27 · 08-12-2011 9:02pm

Terrlock wrote: »

Homosexuality is documented as being an abomination to the Lord.

It's not any worse or better then any other sin.

Have you read the Bible yourself?

If you break 1 commandment its the same as breaking them All.

We all break them, that is a part of being human. It's just become a bit of a serious annoyance of late about the Catholic church.

sunflower27 · 08-12-2011 9:06pm

headmaster wrote: »

The fact that THEY themselves feel THEY have to come out says it all. It's clear from the trauma of coming out that they know themselves they are not normal. Nothing else to say really, they say it all themselves. Then throw in their tantrums and tempers at anyone questioning their sexuality and you have it all. I guess i'll now have to suffer for having an opinion, h'mm.

Hang on, so a young man of say 15 is attracted to boys not girls. Why would anyone CHOOSE this torture? The torture of having to 'come out'?

If it is possible for peple to be born with physical deformities or mental illness then does it not make sense that someone is born with a predisposition to being attracted to the same sex?

sunflower27 · 08-12-2011 9:10pm

I see now why I haven't posted here before.

I don't judge anyone, be they gay or not. For those of you that do, maybe you have to take a closer look at yourselves.

Thou shalt not judge, yet some of you are doing it with bells on. Shame on you.

sunflower27 · 08-12-2011 9:12pm

headmaster wrote: »

The fact that THEY themselves feel THEY have to come out says it all. It's clear from the trauma of coming out that they know themselves they are not normal. Nothing else to say really, they say it all themselves. Then throw in their tantrums and tempers at anyone questioning their sexuality and you have it all. I guess i'll now have to suffer for having an opinion, h'mm.

Oh come on, so someone that has suicidal thoughts as a result of mental illnesss and seeks treatment/acceptance is also not normal?

How judgemental. Honestly...

Zombrex · 08-12-2011 9:13pm

Onesimus wrote: »

Thats the Elephant in the room. There is no scientific proof that they were born with homosexual tendencies. It is a phsychological disorder.

That is not true. The scientific evidence says that genetic factors play a significant role, but they are not the only determining factor in sexual orientation, environment also plays a role.

Or to put it another way if you have certain genes (which are still not fully identified) you are much more likely to be gay but it is not a certainty.

The most compelling evidence from this comes from studies of twins. If you have a twin who is gay you are much more likely to be gay yourself than an average person (50% compared to 10%). This holds even across twins separate in childhood (ie grew up in different environments). Obviously 50% is not a certainty, which indicates that environmental factors also play a role, but there is little doubt (except from people ideologically opposed to such an idea) that there is a significant genetic factor in homosexuality.

Anyway, some what off topic since even if there is a significant genetic factor in homosexuality I don't think many Christians would see that as relevant, there are genetic factors in lots of things that Christians still consider immoral.

philologos · 08-12-2011 9:14pm

sunflower27 wrote: »

I see now why I haven't posted here before.

I don't judge anyone, be they gay or not. For those of you that do, maybe you have to take a closer look at yourselves.

Thou shalt not judge, yet some of you are doing it with bells on. Shame on you.

Who is judging who?

It seems like you are claiming the reason you've not posted here is because some people disagree with you. That's hardly a good starting point for dialogue is it?

Excuse me if I've read you wrong, but I find it a little off that you should claim that I need to look at myself because I don't hold the same views as you do.

sunflower27 · 08-12-2011 9:16pm

Zombrex wrote: »

That is not true. The scientific evidence says that genetic factors play a significant role, but they are not the only determining factor in sexual orientation, environment also plays a role.

Or to put it another way if you have certain genes (which are still not fully identified) you are much more likely to be gay but it is not a certainty.

The most compelling evidence from this comes from studies of twins. If you have a twin who is gay you are much more likely to be gay yourself than an average person (50% compared to 10%). This holds even across twins separate in childhood (ie grew up in different environments). Obviously 50% is not a certainty, which indicates that environmental factors also play a role, but there is little doubt (except from people ideologically opposed to such an idea) that there is a significant genetic factor in homosexuality.

Anyway, some what off topic since even if there is a significant genetic factor in homosexuality I don't think many Christians would see that as relevant, there are genetic factors in lots of things that Christians still consider immoral.

Thanks Zombrex for putting that more eloquently than I could.

There is another thread on here about why people are shunning Cathocalism and to be honest, this thread sums it up a lot for me.

You can be gay and be a loving, beautiful person... I am actually quite astounded at some of these close-minded, uninformed and prejudiced opinions on here.

Zombrex · 08-12-2011 9:18pm

sunflower27 wrote: »

Oh come on, so someone that has suicidal thoughts as a result of mental illnesss and seeks treatment/acceptance is also not normal?

How judgemental. Honestly...

Being judgement is sort of the point. Christians believe they have access to God's judgment of what is right and wrong.

I don't believe they do, and you probably don't believe they do. But really you shouldn't be surprised or shocked at the notion that Christians believe God judges you.

Easy solution, don't be a Christian :P

sunflower27 · 08-12-2011 9:18pm

philologos wrote: »

Who is judging who?

It seems like you are claiming the reason you've not posted here is because some people disagree with you. That's hardly a good starting point for dialogue is it?

Excuse me if I've read you wrong, but I find it a little off that you should claim that I need to look at myself because I don't hold the same views as you do.

I am asking an opinion of why homosexuality is regarded such as sin.

I haven't posted here because it is not a question I really thought of before, but am now.

sunflower27 · 08-12-2011 9:20pm

Zombrex wrote: »

Being judgement is sort of the point. Christians believe they have access to God's judgment of what is right and wrong.

I don't believe they do, and you probably don't believe they do. But really you shouldn't be surprised or shocked at the notion that Christians believe God judges you.

Easy solution, don't be a Christian :P

Fair point, I knew there was a reason my belief was waning, as I suppose are many others.

Thanks for making me see the light

MagicMarker · 08-12-2011 9:21pm

Onesimus wrote: »

Thats the Elephant in the room. There is no scientific proof that they were born with homosexual tendencies. It is a phsychological disorder. many married men often have attractions to the opposite sex throughout their life and then suddenly become gay. I know many who have attended a phsychologist and after some therapy returned to their wives and were turned away from homosexuality and back to their true state. This all the more proves they were not born with it and that it is clearly a pshychological state.

Or perhaps your friends are gay and lying to you and their wives, and themselves of course.

Improbable · 08-12-2011 9:21pm

sunflower27 wrote: »

I am asking an opinion of why homosexuality is regarded such as sin.

I haven't posted here because it is not a question I really thought of before, but am now.

Near as I can tell, it's because the church believes that is god's will.

philologos · 08-12-2011 9:22pm

sunflower27 wrote: »

I am asking an opinion of why homosexuality is regarded such as sin.

I haven't posted here because it is not a question I really thought of before, but am now.

Great, but your posts are verging along the lines of telling me what I should believe really.

Either you want to find out more about what Christians think, or you want to tell Christians that God is wrong or that they should change the Gospel. It can't be both.

I'm up for a fair discussion.

Onesimus · 08-12-2011 9:22pm

Zombrex wrote: »

That is not true. The scientific evidence says that genetic factors play a significant role, but they are not the only determining factor in sexual orientation, environment also plays a role.

Or to put it another way if you have certain genes (which are still not fully identified) you are much more likely to be gay but it is not a certainty.

The most compelling evidence from this comes from studies of twins. If you have a twin who is gay you are much more likely to be gay yourself than an average person (50% compared to 10%). This holds even across twins separate in childhood (ie grew up in different environments). Obviously 50% is not a certainty, which indicates that environmental factors also play a role, but there is little doubt (except from people ideologically opposed to such an idea) that there is a significant genetic factor in homosexuality.

Anyway, some what off topic since even if there is a significant genetic factor in homosexuality I don't think many Christians would see that as relevant, there are genetic factors in lots of things that Christians still consider immoral.

Zombrex, ''its not a certainty'' is nothing but ''theory'' and a theory of how things occur is not evidence but simply a fanciful tale.

if there was hardcore and visible scientific evidence that a person was born gay then you can bet your bottom dollar it would make headlines across the WORLD and would be the most talked about and discussed topic since the dawn of mankind. This has not happened at all.

Improbable · 08-12-2011 9:25pm

Onesimus wrote: »

Zombrex, ''its not a certainty'' is nothing but ''theory'' and a theory of how things occur is not evidence but simply a fanciful tale.

I don't understand this. Could you explain further?

sunflower27 · 08-12-2011 9:29pm

I am not telling anyone what to think. We are all entitled to our opinions.

I don't judge people on account of their sexuality, why would I?

The point of this thread was to ask why, if God created us all, those that are born with a predisposition to fancying the same sex should feel wrong.

I apologise if I am becoming vigilant, it really is just something I thought of today and I realised why would I want to be associated with any religion/belief that judged anyone on something that they are born with.

It could have been me, and yet I would still be a loving, kind and generous person.

soterpisc · 08-12-2011 9:31pm

sunflower27 wrote: »

I see now why I haven't posted here before.

I don't judge anyone, be they gay or not. For those of you that do, maybe you have to take a closer look at yourselves.

Thou shalt not judge, yet some of you are doing it with bells on. Shame on you.

Nobody is judging anybody here!!!! We are judging the acts not the person!!!

So climb down from your high horse and read the debate.

Also this topic has been on the forum time and again. I suggest you have a read of what has been said before.

Ciaran0 · 08-12-2011 9:31pm

Onesimus wrote: »

Zombrex, ''its not a certainty'' is nothing but ''theory'' and a theory of how things occur is not evidence but simply a fanciful tale.

if there was hardcore and visible scientific evidence that a person was born gay then you can bet your bottom dollar it would make headlines across the WORLD and would be the most talked about and discussed topic since the dawn of mankind. This has not happened at all.

The irony of this is almost painful. You refute other people's views on homosexuality as there is a lack of evidence, yet you are a one of the Christian faithful, who believes despite a lack of evidence....

Improbable · 08-12-2011 9:32pm

soterpisc wrote: »

Nobody is judging anybody here!!!! We are judging the acts not the person!!!

So climb down from your high horse and read the debate.

Also this topic has been on the forum time and again. I suggest you have a read of what has been said before.

But is it not the case that if homosexuality is a sin that the person is a sinner? So would that not mean that you are judging them?

philologos · 08-12-2011 9:33pm

sunflower27: IMO it's jumping the gun to assume that sexuality is biologically determined, we don't know this scientifically. The "born with" hypothesis is a jump.

I think my first post sums up my opinion on all forms of sin. I think Terrlock summed it up well.

I believe God's right. That's my only judgement. The rest is His. I believe that man and woman were created to be one through marriage, that was His intention from the beginning.

I also don't believe that Christianity precludes me from being a loving, kind or generous person. Indeed, it's given me a greater understanding of these things since I came to know Jesus personally.

Christianity and homosexuality

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