Meeting a behaviourist..

Graces7

Interesting the dogs and people we meet at markets...

Last week a pat dog in training to work with autistic children; lovely chocolate labrador.

Got chatting re dogs with the handler of course. Re our own rescues, and collie with her now well controlled thunder phobia.

It was .... well, words are hard. A dogmatic ( scuse the pun//) and inflexible list of orders.

We have tried so many things with this severely abused girl and owe so much to so many here on the forum for advice and compassion. THANK YOU. Sometimes she goes off at the deep end with no apparent stimulus; maybe a flashback etc or damage, and always when there is thunder. It reduces her to a total cringeing wreck whose only safe place is me. Preferably inside me! And we now have a simple system. Medicate her; valium on a vet's advice etc. She knows this and as soon as I pick up the bottle she lies down and rolls over. Then I walk with her outside until the medication starts to take over; she will rub her head on the grass. Then we confine her to a safe space where she can still see and hear us.

This young woman averred that all of this was WRONG .. Things we have read and rejected FOR THIS DOG. She gave the reaction for ACP which you good folk here taught me to avoid, as the reaction to valium. DAP was the only thing however bad the dog is. Collie is way past that.

And NEVER stay with the dog.. shut her in and leave her because else she will think there is something wrong. ???? Meaning the dog is putting it on for show???

I said with a straight face that we tried that once; she ran away and was missing eleven days after breaking the door down.

A small pause then.

I HAVE A DEGREE IN ANIMAL BEHAVIOURISM was repeated over and over. So doe our family folk and add to that forty years experience.

It is the inflexibility that concerns. And I wonder what actual experience she has had. No way would I trust her with our two either.

Do they not get taught to take each dog as the individual they are? Or is this just a lack of experience? That time hopefully will ameliorate?

All her theories are things we have read and in this case rejected after listening to others with similar experiences.

Each dog is different; we listen to them and watch them and their needs. Collie trusts and loves; there is no way she would be left in that state of utter terror. Now we get her through it swiftly and the reaction is less than it was even a year ago. Medication is rare now.

She is old now; please God she wil have some years of peace at last. She was left alone to suffer for too long.

Thank you for all we have read here; better here than any "expert!"

pauliebdub

I understand that some people who pass themselves off as experts have very fixed and dogmatic views on how animals should be handled, reading a book and passing an exam is one thing but having the experience of dealing with so many types of animals is quite another.

I would be very reluctant to give something like valium to a dog however and would seek a second or third opinion before doing so but if it alleviates a distressing situation so be it.

suziwalsh

Unfortunately very few people are experts and its the always the ones who arent who claim they are....always use your gut. Every dog is different and once you're welfare friendly and have explored all options then you'll be fine. Not all behaviourists are bad but then not all those who say they are qualified...really are...

Graces7

pauliebdub wrote: »

I understand that some people who pass themselves off as experts have very fixed and dogmatic views on how animals should be handled, reading a book and passing an exam is one thing but having the experience of dealing with so many types of animals is quite another.

I would be very reluctant to give something like valium to a dog however and would seek a second or third opinion before doing so but if it alleviates a distressing situation so be it.

Exactly so. We tried so many things, believe me. The real danger with collies is that they get so totally terrified that a heart attack is a real risk. I read many similar experiences on some of the collie forums where there had been deaths. One thunderstorm that first year we had her lasted 72 hours and the dog vomited throughout. We could not get a vet to visit and to have got her in the car in the open would have increased the trauma. We kept her alive with homemade rehydration fluid that time.

The only thing any vet offered - apart from the one who arrived at the door with a lethal injection in her hand - was ACP and we knew how bad that is.

We tried whiskey which she hates; it has become a useful word to use if she does wrong... lol!

One vet suggested anti histamines which we had OTC but it did not have the swift calming the valium has.

The valium takes the edge off enough that she can regain some control and dignity. ie be at peace with what is going on. ie lose the acute stress and terror which is so damaging and which was being reinforced over and over again. it is a useful drug in such cases. She is a happier dog than at any other time. She knows now that there will be help.

Tranceypoo

Oh, your poor dog, what on earth did she go through to make her so traumatised by these situations. It must be awful, not just for her but for you as well, to have to watch, try and comfort etc.

Honestly, I started doing a home course in dog psychology, at the end I can do an exam, get a certificate and, in theory, set myself up as a dog behaviourist. But all this course is, is sending me copies of pages from a dog book, reading each chapter and summarising it in 250 words or less. How that would qualify me as a dog behaviourist is beyond me!!! I suppose like every line of work, there's good ones and bad ones, but I would think a behaviourist would judge each dog individually and not just say 'the dog suffers from this, therefore I do this'.

Shanao

I have a feeling that I know this behaviourist and if it is who i think it is, I have had run ins with her before and have helped out a few people who used to go to her and got nowhere after spending 200euro+. I've trained under two behaviourists but still want to do another course or two before I could comfortably call myself fully qualified. There are far too many internet degree behaviourists out there now trying to make money:mad:

Whispered

Every dog is different and anybody who tries to push a single way of dealing with a problem is no more an expert than if they were simply reading it from a book.

Graces7

Shanao wrote: »

I have a feeling that I know this behaviourist and if it is who i think it is, I have had run ins with her before and have helped out a few people who used to go to her and got nowhere after spending 200euro+. I've trained under two behaviourists but still want to do another course or two before I could comfortably call myself fully qualified. There are far too many internet degree behaviourists out there now trying to make money:mad:

Do you know I worried after posting that she might be on boards!!!

Thank you. Finally she settled for agreeing to differ, but I was drained.

Graces7

Tranceypoo wrote: »

Oh, your poor dog, what on earth did she go through to make her so traumatised by these situations. It must be awful, not just for her but for you as well, to have to watch, try and comfort etc.

Honestly, I started doing a home course in dog psychology, at the end I can do an exam, get a certificate and, in theory, set myself up as a dog behaviourist. But all this course is, is sending me copies of pages from a dog book, reading each chapter and summarising it in 250 words or less. How that would qualify me as a dog behaviourist is beyond me!!! I suppose like every line of work, there's good ones and bad ones, but I would think a behaviourist would judge each dog individually and not just say 'the dog suffers from this, therefore I do this'.

We found her chained up 24/7 to a 56 lb weight at our rental. Our landlord had bought her for Daddy after Mammy died; Daddy did not want her and never spent another night at the house. Puppy was locked up alone in a dark shed thus 16/24 then fed, let out to roam. She knew every field and fence in the area. We asked to take her on; she was thin as a greyhound, never wormed or fixed.

And she would have gone through hell in thunderstorms.

Since Daddy died, fed by whoever was around and that was her only human contact.And they did not see that that was wrong.

Local tradition was that you must never let a dog in the house when there is thunder, but they all kept theirs outside anyway. In all weathers.

She was five then ; I am not a dog person, well I am now. I had no experience of dogs at that time, but excellent skilled advice from family. I already had a wee dog left from relatives who had her when they were here. These two were my first ever dogs. I know a lot more now!

We are sure she was kicked and she was headshy also. Getting her away when we left was interesting. "We miss her.." HUH! We had the full support of a local rescue group and their backing.

We also have had three house moves in the last while and we are all unsettled still but well into our second year here.

Collie is now as happy as it comes. She has the skills she needs for the life we live, and we have fields to run them in. She has learned to sing anddance for her supper and her vocabulary is hilarious when I am fixing their food

But it has been a long hard time with her; to hear that young woman! Wonder if she has kids and if she lets them cry in a dark room alone.

One thing that emerges often is that there is such a prejudice v behavioural issues. So it is fine to give pain relief for a hurt leg but not for a damaged mind? That is what I came up against with all the vets. Valium is simply pain relief for terror.

I realise now that we have only had to use it twice in the last two months; it used to be more often. She knows we can and will help and that limits the fear.

And as soon as the thunder stops, she is herself; shakes it off and eats and drinks.

Thank you

tk123

Can I ask where this trainer is based? I wonder if it's one I've met a few times? She's very vocal and "hands-on" with her dogs - my dog and most of the other dogs in the park are afraid of her. Polar opposite to the trainers and behaviourists we know from training/daycare.

Graces7

tk123 wrote: »

Can I ask where this trainer is based? I wonder if it's one I've met a few times? She's very vocal and "hands-on" with her dogs - my dog and most of the other dogs in the park are afraid of her. Polar opposite to the trainers and behaviourists we know from training/daycare.

This was a Cork city market. She was very vocal to me but the dog just stood there. Good as gold! Probably dared no be else. He was wearing a yellow coat re the autism training.

It was the wrong data re the valium that concerned also. She recited what many know to be fact re ACP word for word. That it does not reduce fear but stops the dog from acting. ie increases the fear in reality. We were given some for collie but never used it. The valium takes the edge off enough for her to cope and focus. And to feel safer. The only thing that totally ends her terror is when the thunder stops. but the meds help.

Nor did I ask for any advice! And no the dog was not with me.

ppink

what is ACP?

Graces7

ppink wrote: »

what is ACP?

A veterinary drug used as a sedative; there have been threads on it here. It has a bad reputation and few use it now.

joyce2009

I think at the end of the day you know your dog and its up to you to see what works and what doesnt,,you seemed to have done all you can before resorting to drugs but for gods sake if it works and eases the stress on the poor dog then fine.She deserves a break and it looks like she got it with you. Fair play on taking her on, shes one lucky dog.:)

Tranceypoo

That is a very sad (and I fear quite common) story, very sad, some peoples attitudes to dogs in this country disgusts me and I think will never change. I'm glad she got a happy ending, the least she deserves!

Graces7

Tranceypoo wrote: »

That is a very sad (and I fear quite common) story, very sad, some peoples attitudes to dogs in this country disgusts me and I think will never change. I'm glad she got a happy ending, the least she deserves!

The family who had her said that none of them wanted her or would take her in. They went on to buy the boy a beautifull little spaniel, which they refused to allow in the house. He turned from a lovely wee puppy into an undisciplined and unhappy dog. I used to drive past their house and see the dog tied up in the front garden; no one in and in all weathers. Yes I reported them; the rescue group knew what we had done of course.

I kept them informed as I was planning to take the collie when we moved with or without permission from them.

Just fed the dogs; collie now has a great line in singing and dancing! After a really good run in the empty fields. Please God she has many years left

Graces7

joyce2009 wrote: »

I think at the end of the day you know your dog and its up to you to see what works and what doesnt,,you seemed to have done all you can before resorting to drugs but for gods sake if it works and eases the stress on the poor dog then fine.She deserves a break and it looks like she got it with you. Fair play on taking her on, shes one lucky dog.:)

I don't have any problems using medication. Not for physical or any other problem. These things are here to help. Some of the stories on the collie forums are shocking. The time she ran away she broke one door down and almost got through another, looking for me. The strength of panic is almost unbelievable.

Rather medicate than have her die of shock and terror.

It has been five years now and I am humbled by her devotion. Watching her race across the field to me brings tears to my eyes. Heart and all are given. There were times I thought I would have to give her up, but we have weathered all that now.