SEA BASS

Sonnenblumen

I was shocked to hear recently, a radio commentator mention in passing that the vast bulk of sea bass on sale in ireland originates from fish farms in Turkey and Greece and that irish trawlers are prohibited from fishing for or landing any sea bass? Some of the bass sold in Irish supermarkets originates from stock caught in Irish waters, exported to be re-exported ??

Is any of this true?

CJhaughey

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

I was shocked to hear recently, a radio commentator mention in passing that the vast bulk of sea bass on sale in ireland originates from fish farms in Turkey and Greece and that irish trawlers are prohibited from fishing for or landing any sea bass? Some of the bass sold in Irish supermarkets originates from stock caught in Irish waters, exported to be re-exported ??

Is any of this true?

It is illegal for a ROI registered vessel to sell wild bass.
Its not illegal for a Northern Ireland Vessel to land wild bass in the ROI, in fact they can fish right up to the shoreline all around the ROI and catch wild bass which ROI vessels cannot.
All bass sold here is of farmed origin, usually farmed in the Med/Adriatic and imported.
Makes a lot of sense? We could set a quota for bass here and catch it and sell it for profit, instead any that are caught as bycatch has to be returned back to the sea dead or alive.
The French and UK governments don't put any such restrictions on their vessels for obvious reasons and if bass was made a quota species in the morning Ireland would be enjoying a quota of 0%
France and the UK would have the majority of the quota because they have the track history of catching it.
Ireland seems to be determined to fashion itself into a playground for rich people that can come and catch Salmon and Bass while the locals are forbidden from making living from fishing them.
Much like the landlords did back aways...

the beer revolu

I have never seen wild bass for sale in Ireland, imported, reimported or otherwise.
The only wild bass I've eaten is one I've caught (legally).

nudger

Short answer sadly, yes.

ginoginelli

One of our Ireland's biggest blunders in history was handing over our fishing rights. Feckin eejits.

thatcher

CJhaughey wrote: »

It is illegal for a ROI registered vessel to sell wild bass.
Its not illegal for a Northern Ireland Vessel to land wild bass in the ROI, in fact they can fish right up to the shoreline all around the ROI and catch wild bass which ROI vessels cannot.
All bass sold here is of farmed origin, usually farmed in the Med/Adriatic and imported.
Makes a lot of sense? We could set a quota for bass here and catch it and sell it for profit, instead any that are caught as bycatch has to be returned back to the sea dead or alive.
The French and UK governments don't put any such restrictions on their vessels for obvious reasons and if bass was made a quota species in the morning Ireland would be enjoying a quota of 0%
France and the UK would have the majority of the quota because they have the track history of catching it.
Ireland seems to be determined to fashion itself into a playground for rich people that can come and catch Salmon and Bass while the locals are forbidden from making living from fishing them.
Much like the landlords did back aways...

I'm a little late comming to this debate but a few points need clarification. Northern Ireland (or for that matter any other UK or EU vessel) cannot fish inside our 12 mile limit. All EU vessels over 15 meters are fitted with VMS(vessel monitoring system) and are constantly monitored. Contrary to popular perception foreign vessels cannot come and go from Irish waters as they please.
For what it is worth the total recorded sea bass catch by all NI vessels for 2010 was a mere 80kgs, ie two boxes and as CJHaughey states unlike ROI vessels they are perfectly entitled to land and record them.
Irish bass are very much an inshore species. In 15 years of research by the two Marine Institute research trawlers, they recorded a mere 60 bass out of a total of several million fish of other species. UK research (CEFAS)carried out in the Irish Sea over 6 years(up to our 12 mile limit but not inside) did not record a single bass even though they recorded over 60 different species.
Irish bass angling is not for "rich" people. It is enjoyed by very ordinary Irish people who often spend their money in remote coastal areas. It is also enjoyed by visiting tourists who bring badly needed cash to Ireland. frankly I don't care if they are rich or not as long as they spend their money here.
Bass angling in Ireland is worth €18 million a year and growing. If every single bass in Ireland was killed and sold it would be worth less than half that and of course they would be gone forever.
CJHaughry may have a chip on his shoulder about visiting "rich" tourists but 10's of thousands of Irish people depend on the Irish tourist industry to pay their bills and feed their children. So for any " rich" tourists reading this- you are more than welcome to come to Ireland and spend your money. If ever there was a time we needed it it's now.

CJhaughey

thatcher wrote: »

I'm a little late comming to this debate but a few points need clarification. Northern Ireland (or for that matter any other UK or EU vessel) cannot fish inside our 12 mile limit.

You are wrong.if you want to try to correct you had better give correct info.
NI vessels can fish right up to the shore in the ROI, its called the Voisanage agreement. Which is a reciprocal agreement between NI/UK and the ROI.
"On 13th September 1965 the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries wrote to the Ministry of Agriculture in Belfast and confirmed that ‘boats’ “owned and operated by fishermen permanently resident in the Six Counties will be permitted to fish within the new limits”(6 mile limit). The letter also stated that “vessels up to 75ft (22.86m) in length overall may fish within our exclusive fishery limits subject only to the usual regulations which would affect our own boats also”.



On 14th December 1965 the Ministry of Agriculture in Belfast wrote to the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries in Dublin and acknowledged the Republic of Ireland position “that Northern Ireland owned and operated fishing vessels will continue to be allowed to fish within your new limits”. They also confirmed their agreement with the UK government position of 24th August 1964."

Bass aggregate in specific areas offshore and are targeted by foreign midwater vessels usually French, they have landings data for bass from Irish waters that is considerable.
The reason that the MI, research vessels don't catch bass is because they tow specific transects as part of their surveys, they don't tow through areas that hold bass because the bass stay in specific areas.
Even if there are big aggregations of fish

As you may know Quotas are set for fish stocks based on historical landings and as Irish fishermen have been banned from landing Bass if, Bass were to be brought into the quota system Irish Fishermen would lose out on any quota due to not landing Bass.
Would you see this as a fair situation? That Ireland would be the sole EU country to have no commercial fishing for Bass for its own fishermen?
Ireland was allowed to land Bass under a quota system then it could be monitored and controlled. The reason that Bass was placed under restriction was because there was a free for all in the 1970's, time has moved on since then and monitoring from VMS etc has changed beyond all recognition.
In other words its not Kill-em-all any more.
So why should the ROI still pursue the same policy as regards Bass while importing foreign Bass?
Farmers protested against Brazilian beef and this is a very similar situation.

Melendez

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CJhaughey

Melendez wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Probably landed in UK or other EU state and brought in to Ireland.
Could also be frozen but you'd have to ask the restaurant.

the beer revolu

Melendez wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Have you seen wild sea bass on a menu?
Are you sure?

Melendez

This post has been deleted.

thatcher

CJhaughey wrote: »

You are wrong.if you want to try to correct you had better give correct info.
NI vessels can fish right up to the shore in the ROI, its called the Voisanage agreement. Which is a reciprocal agreement between NI/UK and the ROI.
"On 13th September 1965 the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries wrote to the Ministry of Agriculture in Belfast and confirmed that ‘boats’ “owned and operated by fishermen permanently resident in the Six Counties will be permitted to fish within the new limits”(6 mile limit). The letter also stated that “vessels up to 75ft (22.86m) in length overall may fish within our exclusive fishery limits subject only to the usual regulations which would affect our own boats also”.



On 14th December 1965 the Ministry of Agriculture in Belfast wrote to the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries in Dublin and acknowledged the Republic of Ireland position “that Northern Ireland owned and operated fishing vessels will continue to be allowed to fish within your new limits”. They also confirmed their agreement with the UK government position of 24th August 1964."

Bass aggregate in specific areas offshore and are targeted by foreign midwater vessels usually French, they have landings data for bass from Irish waters that is considerable.
The reason that the MI, research vessels don't catch bass is because they tow specific transects as part of their surveys, they don't tow through areas that hold bass because the bass stay in specific areas.
Even if there are big aggregations of fish

As you may know Quotas are set for fish stocks based on historical landings and as Irish fishermen have been banned from landing Bass if, Bass were to be brought into the quota system Irish Fishermen would lose out on any quota due to not landing Bass.
Would you see this as a fair situation? That Ireland would be the sole EU country to have no commercial fishing for Bass for its own fishermen?
Ireland was allowed to land Bass under a quota system then it could be monitored and controlled. The reason that Bass was placed under restriction was because there was a free for all in the 1970's, time has moved on since then and monitoring from VMS etc has changed beyond all recognition.
In other words its not Kill-em-all any more.
So why should the ROI still pursue the same policy as regards Bass while importing foreign Bass?
Farmers protested against Brazilian beef and this is a very similar situation.

I’m aware of the Voisanage agreement. The Voisanage agreement does not allow Northern Ireland or anybody else to land bass in Irish waters. The countries involved in the Voisanage agreement (ROI &NI) are bound by each other’s fisheries laws, and in the Republic of Ireland’s case our bass legislation.
I admit my original statement should have been clearer i.e. Northern Ireland, UK or anybody else cannot fish for bass inside our 12 mile limit. You actually make this point yourself.
The letter also stated that “vessels up to 75ft (22.86m) in length overall may fish within our exclusive fishery limits subject only to the usual regulations which would affect our own boats also”
If it was not the case how do you explain Northern Ireland’s paltry total of 80kg of bass for all NI vessels in 2010?
You may choose to ignore the Marine Institute and UK research as it contradicts your point of view. Commercial fishermen have always complained about the science when it does not tell them what they want.
How do you explain that the total bass landing by all UK vessels for 2010 are a mere 9 tonnes for all offshore waters in the Irish and Celtic Sea outside of their 12 mile limit? Not only that but the 9 tonnes caught between gill nets or hook and line. The figure for trawled bass in all this area was 0 which means below half a tonne. (recent statistics from CEFAS)Are you going to suggest that UK vessels do not know how to fish either?
So UK vessels that are perfectly entitled to target and land bass in the Irish and Celtic Sea failed to do so. Why?
As for French vessels, their total catch for all the Irish Sea, Celtic Sea and offshore waters right down to Northern France the total was a mere 35 tonnes for 2010.(ICES stats)
The total EU bass catch for a vast area to the southwest and north of Ireland was only 4 tonnes for 2010.
As far as Ireland discreet bass stock are concerned, all evidence shows them to be an inshore stock.
You mention yourself advances in VMS. This makes it virtually impossible to record bass caught in Irish offshore waters in other sea areas and after all why should they do so? As you mention yourself they are entitled to target and land bass right up to our 12 mile limit but seem unable to do so.
Incidentally if our bass management system is such a bad idea why is NI just about to introduce the same system up there? Are they also pandering to the rich tourist or is it that they consider our system, while not perfect, gives the best and most sustainable return to Ireland from a very fragile national resource.

Cardinal Richelieu

CJhaughey wrote: »

Probably landed in UK or other EU state and brought in to Ireland.
Could also be frozen but you'd have to ask the restaurant.

Is there any pressure on restaurants to display origins/catchment area like the retail trade has to do?

the beer revolu

I just don't buy the much held notion that any injury to fish stocks in Irish waters must be caused by "foreign boats" and that Irish fishermen are just trying to make an honest living.

The notion of "if I don't land it (legally or not), someone else will" is far too rife in the industry. I've been on trawlers and the lack of consideration for the sea and its produce made me sick - so much so I rarely buy commercially caught fish.

Clearly, there are problems with the regulations and the implementation of them but I cant stand the attitude of
EU regulations = Bad,
Fishermen = Good, honest struggling folk who would never bend or ignore the rules.

And when the sea has been raped until it is barren by international fishermen we can blame the EU or whoever else to shift the blame from the fishermen.
Unfortunately, the average consumer doesn't give a toss either.

It's not less regulation fishing needs - it's more.

emmet the rover

Cardinal Richelieu wrote: »

Is there any pressure on restaurants to display origins/catchment area like the retail trade has to do?

restraunt suppliers must provide info on where the fish was caught/farmed this is usually a printed label on a box/bag of fish. it also means nothing to somone who does not know hoe the areas of the sea is divided up.

however please remeber that fish are seasonal creatures and are fished in many diffrent parts of the sea. in order to print the info on where the fish orignates the menues would need to be reprinted daily or more often.

BIM is the irish fisherys board and they monitor f the fishing industry as well as offering a logo for restraunts to display.

in my experience most cod is caught in the north sea and is often caught on norweigen ships
salmon comes from scotland
mussles can come from ire or scotland
anything else your guess is as good as mine double so when frozen

Zzippy

Thatcher is 100% right, the bass fishery in Ireland provides far more value to the economy as species managed for angling than it would as a commercial species. Commercial fishing for bass has been prohibited in Irish inshore waters since 1990, and as bass are very slow-growing, it has taken 20 years for the stock to regenerate to the extent that bass angling is now an attractive proposition. I have been to angling shows in the UK, France, Holland and Germany, and foreign anglers are coming in their droves to fish for bass here - they have a huge appreciation for Irish bass regulations, which mean that bass fishing here is now much better than in their own countries.

Airlines, ferry companies, hotels, B&Bs, car rental companies, tackle shops and angling guides are all reaping the benefits and providing employment in rural areas. That would be jeopardised by a return to commercial fishing for bass.

The commercial industry had its chance at bass and almost wiped them out, why should they be allowed a second bite at the cherry?

thatcher

Thanks Zzippy for your comments.
Your point about not giving commercial fishermen a second chance with bass is valid but in fact they did get a second chance with bass. Our current legislation is not the first time we have had restrictions put on bass. In the late 1970's, bass conservation laws were brought in to try to stop the decline in bass numbers. By and large they were ignored and due to commerial lobbying they were removed in the early 1980's. By 1990 the Irish bass stock was concidered to be less than 2% of it's historic level and the bass angling industry which had been so strong in the 60's and 70's had collapsed. Minister John Wilson signed into law our current legislation to try to protect the few remaining bass we had.
If our bass laws were overturned now it would in fact be a third chance for commercial fishermen.
There is a saying that the only thing we learn from history is that we learn nothing from history. As far as Irish bass stocks are concerned I hope this is not the case.

niallam

emmet the rover wrote: »

restraunt suppliers must provide info on where the fish was caught/farmed this is usually a printed label on a box/bag of fish. it also means nothing to somone who does not know hoe the areas of the sea is divided up.

however please remeber that fish are seasonal creatures and are fished in many diffrent parts of the sea. in order to print the info on where the fish orignates the menues would need to be reprinted daily or more often.

BIM is the irish fisherys board and they monitor f the fishing industry as well as offering a logo for restraunts to display.

in my experience most cod is caught in the north sea and is often caught on norweigen ships
salmon comes from scotland
mussles can come from ire or scotland
anything else your guess is as good as mine double so when frozen

Fish should be labeled with a catch area and production method, sea is divided into large areas http://www.fao.org/fishery/area/search/en

As for changing menus due to fish being seasonal, Atlantic cod, whether from Ireland, Scotland or Iceland is all "Area 27" or NE Atlantic as a catch area. No cod from Norway (area 27) reaches Ireland in fresh form anyway and any that does is farmed cod.

SFPA are the people your looking for not BIM when it comes to monitoring the fishing industry here. BIM run the Seafood Circle for restaurants and fishmongers, only the best of the fishmongers get into the seafood circle and for restaurants they must have a certain % fish on the menu...

Salmon comes from Ireland, Scotland and Norway into this country. All farmed but some in far better conditions than others, only 1 salmon farm in the world has ever been awarded the Freedom Food award for responsible fishing.

And as for the wild bass questions, France is where it all comes into Ireland from, your looking at a fine of about €1000 per fish if found with Irish fish. Only exception is a boats captain can land 1 fish per trip for personal use.

thatcher

In fact a very high percentage (60%)of farmed salmon sold in Irish resturants comes from Chile. It is produced very cheaply there as wages are very low and environmental and animal health issues are not a high priority.
At least 99% of the bass sold in Ireland is farmed bass from Greece and Turkey. The figure for the rest of the EU is in the region of 90%. Wild stocks could not hope to satisfy the demand.
Wild bass is expensive in France. In some upmarket fishmongers there it can be sold for €40 a kilo. Taking into account transport and the "shelf life" of fresh fish, the price here would be exceptionally high. It is generally only sold in a few top resturants.
Many resturants that claim to be selling "wild bass" are just trying to make their farmed bass sound better. Most customers can not tell the difference.
Europe now imports over 60% of all the fish we eat and this figure continues to grow.
If you are interested to learn how marine fish stocks can be well managed for all users then take a look at Alaska. Stock levels are kept very high and everybody benefits. To be fair it is a lot easier to manage your fish stocks when it is not shared between a dozen or more countries.

niallam

thatcher wrote: »

In fact a very high percentage (60%)of farmed salmon sold in Irish resturants comes from Chile. It is produced very cheaply there as wages are very low and environmental and animal health issues are not a high priority.
At least 99% of the bass sold in Ireland is farmed bass from Greece and Turkey. The figure for the rest of the EU is in the region of 90%. Wild stocks could not hope to satisfy the demand.
Wild bass is expensive in France. In some upmarket fishmongers there it can be sold for €40 a kilo. Taking into account transport and the "shelf life" of fresh fish, the price here would be exceptionally high. It is generally only sold in a few top resturants.
Many resturants that claim to be selling "wild bass" are just trying to make their farmed bass sound better. Most customers can not tell the difference.
Europe now imports over 60% of all the fish we eat and this figure continues to grow.
If you are interested to learn how marine fish stocks can be well managed for all users then take a look at Alaska. Stock levels are kept very high and everybody benefits. To be fair it is a lot easier to manage your fish stocks when it is not shared between a dozen or more countries.

Your figure for salmon couldn't be more wrong...
The salmon production in Chile has suffered greatly in recent years, from loss of infrastructure to diseases in their farms. That is the main reason that about 2 years ago salmon prices worldwide increased massively. America is taking more Norwegian salmon than it was and that increased the price because they knew they could get more of it.
The idea of cheap salmon production in Chile is a correct but then transport to Europe cancels any cost effectiveness.
I'd say about 5% of restaurants sell Irish Salmon, 25% Scottish and 70% Norwegian.

Many restaurants that are selling wild bass are actually selling wild bass, reason being nobody cares or monitors it, i saw a fishmongers in Dublin openly advertising wild irish bass last year. As with every industry there is a black market for everything.
Most of these people that park up a van selling fish or call to your door in a van are selling illegally caught fish, might be cheaper but it's the stuff that should have been thrown back...

Europe now imports over 60% of all the fish we eat and this figure continues to grow.

That's because 60% of people that eat fish only eat processed stuff they buy in a bag in the freezer department...
Salmon from Norway can find it's way to China and arrive back in Ireland cheaper than it left Norway... So be careful when buying frozen fish in a supermarket.

thatcher

Niallam, Your points about farmed salmon from Chile are out of date. Chile did have a massive disease problem in 08 and 09 but their production is increasing at a massive rate at the moment. US imports of Chilean salmon have increased by 110% in the last 12 months and consequently international prices of farmed salmon are droping fast as Chile tries to regain market share. There has been a 20% drop in prices since last August and recent BIM advice stated that prices will continue to fall.
My figures for the amount of Chilean salmon sold in Irish resturants were given to me only last week by a man who works as a buyer for several hotels and resturants.
You say that any compeditive advantage Chile have with their cheap production methods would be lost in the transport costs to Europe. If this were so how do you explain the fact that Europe imposes a contravertial tariff on imports of Chilean salmon in an attempt to protect prices here?

The IFI have actually investigated dozens of resturants that claimed to sell "Wild Irish bass" and virtually all were selling farmed bass. There is a simple test to check. While I don't deny that it does happen it is pretty rare. Most illegally caught Irish bass are shipped abroad where it can be sold for a much higher price.
The EU imports 60% of the fish we eat simply because our seas can no longer supply the demand. It makes no difference where people buy there fish. In fact some of the most ethically sound fish to be found in Europe is to be found in the freezer compartments of supermarkets. Alaskan pollock and salmon and New Zealand coley come from well managed stocks. On the other hand there are fish like "Basa"(a type of farmed catfish) to be found in the freezer compartment. These are farmed in the Mekong river in Vietnam and come from the opposite end of the spectrum. What I am trying to say is that we simply can not say that frozen or processed fish is bad.

niallam

thatcher wrote: »

My figures for the amount of Chilean salmon sold in Irish resturants were given to me only last week by a man who works as a buyer for several hotels and resturants.

Your definitely wrong, I can tell you the top 5 fish wholesalers in the country and where they get their salmon, none of it is from chile, i can tell you all the farms it comes from and when and how it gets into the country...

international prices of farmed salmon are droping fast as Chile tries to regain market share.

Not sure where your getting the figures from on this, i know what salmon costs and i know what it has cost every year for the last 20 years.

The IFI have actually investigated dozens of resturants that claimed to sell "Wild Irish bass" and virtually all were selling farmed bass. There is a simple test to check. While I don't deny that it does happen it is pretty rare. Most illegally caught Irish bass are shipped abroad where it can be sold for a much higher price.

IFI dont investigate anything of the sort, thats down to the SFPA, they're the ones with the power to walk into any establishment selling fish and investigate. IFI deal more with enforcing anglers licences and freshwater species, anything up to 10 miles i think offshore and river pollution etc
Your dreaming if you think Ireland exports wild bass... Whats this simple test you speak of??? Size is the only real giveaway without scientifically testing, farmed bass is graded from a 3-400g, 4-600g, 8-1000g and rarely a 1+
Like the very well known Dublin fish merchant that was selling farmed smoked salmon as Wild, nobody knew until the fish was tested genetically.

The EU imports 60% of the fish we eat simply because our seas can no longer supply the demand. It makes no difference where people buy there fish. In fact some of the most ethically sound fish to be found in Europe is to be found in the freezer compartments of supermarkets. Alaskan pollock and salmon and New Zealand coley come from well managed stocks. On the other hand there are fish like "Basa"(a type of farmed catfish) to be found in the freezer compartment. These are farmed in the Mekong river in Vietnam and come from the opposite end of the spectrum. What I am trying to say is that we simply can not say that frozen or processed fish is bad.

Do your import figures include the imports from within EU countries to other EU countries, Ireland exports fish to France, UK, Spain and Holland every day of the week, Ireland imports fresh white fish from Scotland and Iceland every day...
By Basa your mean what i'd call pangasius, it is a catfish but with a very muddy flavour which is more of a flavour favoured by Africans.
And i never said that frozen or processed fish is bad.

sheesh

CJhaughey wrote: »

It is illegal for a ROI registered vessel to sell wild bass.
Its not illegal for a Northern Ireland Vessel to land wild bass in the ROI, in fact they can fish right up to the shoreline all around the ROI and catch wild bass which ROI vessels cannot.
All bass sold here is of farmed origin, usually farmed in the Med/Adriatic and imported.
Makes a lot of sense? We could set a quota for bass here and catch it and sell it for profit, instead any that are caught as bycatch has to be returned back to the sea dead or alive.
The French and UK governments don't put any such restrictions on their vessels for obvious reasons and if bass was made a quota species in the morning Ireland would be enjoying a quota of 0%
France and the UK would have the majority of the quota because they have the track history of catching it.
Ireland seems to be determined to fashion itself into a playground for rich people that can come and catch Salmon and Bass while the locals are forbidden from making living from fishing them.
Much like the landlords did back aways...

well yes but the last time bass were legal to catch the stocks collapsed