Breeding history

Muckit

Would it be an idea if marts displayed the breeding history of cattle sold, say especially heifers?

Would, lets say, the AI code used be a bonus to know? After all, you could have a stock bull by the same sire!

Just a mad thought that came into my head! :rolleyes:

Also for fattening bulls or heifers, it may give a better indication to buyers of the suitability of cattle for certain finishing regimes and markets.

PB breeders put so much emphasis on studying breeding history and matching sire to dam. Would a bit of the same mindset not benefit the commerical sector?

whelan1

cant understand why the sire isnt on the blue card, seriously in this day and age and theres plenty of room for sire code or tag on the card

flatout11

whelan1 wrote: »

cant understand why the sire isnt on the blue card, seriously in this day and age and theres plenty of room for sire code or tag on the card

id agree i think the ICBF have tried to get it put back on them but without much sucess, it would be a good idea to have it displayed in the marts too but i can t see this happening

Muckit

whelan1 wrote: »

cant understand why the sire isnt on the blue card, seriously in this day and age and theres plenty of room for sire code or tag on the card

Speaking of blue cards, the keepers signature .... is there a real need for it? Bought a few heifer weanlings in mart on saturday. No signature on some of them. Brought them into the office and the girl behind the counter signed them! :rolleyes:

I also think the blue card should be a 'credit card' type electronic swipe card in this day and age. I wouldn't go as far as photo ID on it though!! A bar code and a swipe stripe though, yes.

pakalasa

I think the logic behind not doing it, is that unless you can stand over the information 100%, then it is better not to have it there at all. Even with the best intentions in the world, how do you know that the neighbours bull or that young weanling you have, hasn't been busy during the night.
Then there's the other side of it. Every chancer would be claiming that CF52 was the sire of their char weanlings, Rocky for their lims etc.

I know John Shirley wrote an article about this a while back. His point was that if you go out and say, buy Simmental replacement heifers, when it comes to AI, how do you avoid inbreeding. You could be using the same bull again.

I'd like to see it there myself, but they've obviously thought about it and decided it's better to leave it out.

Muckit

I hear what your saying Pakalasa and agree with all that you say. But why bother with ICBF system then if a breeder, be they ped or commerical can't be 100% of their stock's breeding. And is it not a stipulation of getting your SFP that your farm boundaires are stock proof? :rolleyes: (just throwing it all out there )

That John Shirley talks alot of common sense. It's the first article I read in the Farming indo every week.

pakalasa

As things stand, there is no benefit from lying about the sire when registrating a calf. Nobody can see this info, only you and ICBF.
If that information was made public, then there is a lot to be gained from putting down a good AI bull as the sire. It would help sell your animals.

Maybe that's the logic they're taking.

They should be able to tie in with the AI companies and cross-reference the AI dates and bulls used. Maybe that would help things.

BTW, has anyone ever looked through their Breed profile on the DAFF website. A good few of my weanlings went for export and they weren't exactly fancy. Simm x Lim and the likes. Maybe they went to spain.

flatout11

pakalasa wrote: »

I think the logic behind not doing it, is that unless you can stand over the information 100%, then it is better not to have it there at all. Even with the best intentions in the world, how do you know that the neighbours bull or that young weanling you have, hasn't been busy during the night.
Then there's the other side of it. Every chancer would be claiming that CF52 was the sire of their char weanlings, Rocky for their lims etc.

I know John Shirley wrote an article about this a while back. His point was that if you go out and say, buy Simmental replacement heifers, when it comes to AI, how do you avoid inbreeding. You could be using the same bull again.

I'd like to see it there myself, but they've obviously thought about it and decided it's better to leave it out.

well if you have herd plus you will be able to see the breeding when the nanimal comes into the herd thats if it was recorded
keep in mind the figures the icbf derive for a bull are dependent on this information

Muckit wrote: »

I hear what your saying Pakalasa and agree with all that you say. But why bother with ICBF system then if a breeder, be they ped or commerical can't be 100% of their stock's breeding.

id say they couldnt be bothered putting it back on the card,

pakalasa

flatout11 wrote: »

...well if you have herd plus you will be able to see the breeding when the nanimal comes into the herd thats if it was recorded...

I didn't know that. I'm not in 'Herd Plus'.

ddogsbollix

Very good point Muckit i have thought of that so many times! it would be so easy to do as well

pakalasa

Muckit,
Just got an idea. Why not set up a Voting Poll here on the subject. You could e-mail DAFF and ICBF then with the results.

Bizzum

Is this information not already floathing about in the ether?
Our AI man can tell us from his hand held device if we are about to inbreed. In practice though, he does the job first and the 'paperwork' later!

vanderbadger

pakalasa wrote: »

I didn't know that. I'm not in 'Herd Plus'.

in herdplus can check a bull against your females and see if there is any inbreeding were they to breed

scuggels

Muckit wrote: »

Would it be an idea if marts displayed the breeding history of cattle sold, say especially heifers?

Would, lets say, the AI code used be a bonus to know?

The Ai code would be handy but you would nearly want to know the breeding of the dam. Recently seen on donedeal some one selling claim to be a P.B. simmental it was an Ai IS4 out of a HKG dam. And if this man was into his breeding he would know these bulls are both related it might be far out the Grand sire of IS4 dam is the sire of HKG. So would the AI code alone of the Heifer tell you this if the breeding of the dam was not included? Also would any Society register a calf is there was a smallest bit of inbreeding?

flatout11

scuggels wrote: »

The Ai code would be handy but you would nearly want to know the breeding of the dam. Recently seen on donedeal some one selling claim to be a P.B. simmental it was an Ai IS4 out of a HKG dam. And if this man was into his breeding he would know these bulls are both related it might be far out the Grand sire of IS4 dam is the sire of HKG. So would the AI code alone of the Heifer tell you this if the breeding of the dam was not included? Also would any Society register a calf is there was a smallest bit of inbreeding?

it wouldnt be a major issue at that level - they arent going to come out with 3 legs and half a head!!
just look at blues (not as bad any more) but there were generations of closely related pedigrees very few lines dont have opticien galopeur of riant bloodlines in them similarly in charos here the tombola line is quie popular with ped breeders using line breeding, lets face it with with the most popular sires being 'over' used your bound to get a degree of inbreeding - but at low levels in cross bred animals i wouldnt be too worried

blue5000

If I was selling bulling age heifers in the mart I'd write the sire code in pencil on top of the blue card. At least then the buyer knows what not to use.

pakalasa

blue5000 wrote: »

If I was selling bulling age heifers in the mart I'd write the sire code in pencil on top of the blue card. At least then the buyer knows what not to use.

I've thought of doing that a few times. Think I will in future.

Bizzum

flatout11 wrote: »

ped breeders using line breeding, lets face it with with the most popular sires being 'over' used your bound to get a degree of inbreeding - but at low levels in cross bred animals i wouldnt be too worried

One mans inbreeding is another mans line breeding!

Muckit

Another thought on marts ans improving efficiency.......

If every lad updated his herd register online, any mart transactions could be done automatically for you by the mart office, whether you were buying or selling.

Don't have the figures for how many farmers are doing it already, but if only 7% of farmers are supposedly under 35, I'd say it'I probably be a while before we see this!

flatout11

Muckit wrote: »

Another thought on marts ans improving efficiency.......

If every lad updated his herd register online, any mart transactions could be done automatically for you by the mart office, whether you were buying or selling.

Don't have the figures for how many farmers are doing it already, but if only 7% of farmers are supposedly under 35, I'd say it'I probably be a while before we see this!

dont follow this ?

tanko

flatout11 wrote: »

dont follow this ?

If you have signed up for keeping the on-line herd register on agfood.ie then if you buy or sell an animal in a mart your own online register is automatically updated on the day you buy or sell.