Possession of a controlled substance

FeetMagicII

I was summoned for possession of cannabis with the case due for January. Is it mandatory to have a solicitor appear with you in court and what is the average cost for this? I know I'll only get a slap on the wrist as the quantity was minuscule and I have no previous convictions but pretty sure I have to have representation? Also, is there anything else I need to sort out? The garda mentioned obtaining a reference but after that I've heard nothing.

Kosseegan

Go to the court you are summoned to on days when it is sitting in advance of the date of your case. Get to know the solicitors who appear there frequently. Approach one or more of them and tell your story and ask about the fee. If you hope to avail of the maximum leniency of the judge, it is far better to have a solicitor who knows how to push the buttons with the local judge.

FeetMagicII

That would be ideal if I had all the time but unfortunately I don't and I work about 300km from where the court case is so will only be venturing out there for the day. Hoping I can sort everything out with solicitor over the phone. Ball park figure of one consultation & representation on the day?

bath handle

FeetMagicII wrote: »

That would be ideal if I had all the time but unfortunately I don't and I work about 300km from where the court case is so will only be venturing out there for the day. Hoping I can sort everything out with solicitor over the phone. Ball park figure of one consultation & representation on the day?

€250.00

ResearchWill

FeetMagicII wrote: »

I was summoned for possession of cannabis with the case due for January. Is it mandatory to have a solicitor appear with you in court and what is the average cost for this? I know I'll only get a slap on the wrist as the quantity was minuscule and I have no previous convictions but pretty sure I have to have representation? Also, is there anything else I need to sort out? The garda mentioned obtaining a reference but after that I've heard nothing.

No person has to have a solicitor, but in your case it would be advisable. This offence can range from probation of offenders Act dismissal, or even pay the poor box for a total strike out up to fines. I know of one judge who will keep the matter going for a year or more adjourning to teach the person a lesson. But it really depends on the judge. A good local solicitor will advise you on the local judge. It's no harm in my opinion to have regular unrine tests to show you are no longer using, also if you have involvement in local sports or community groups good to inform the court of same.

Local solicitor will also be able to advise on the appeal process if it is required. I would advise meeting solicitor before the day in question so he can see if there is any grounds to fight the case.

harry Bailey esq

if the amount was minuscule as you say,no need for a solicitor.just hold your hand up,admit to the offence and be respectful to the court.no judge likes a smartass.a previous poster mentioned the fee of €250 for a solicitor to represent you.that estimate is spot on.unless you try to contest the case you won't need one however.im guessing from your post that you are in full time employment.also,you mention you must travel a considerable distance to attend court,which Will incur travel expenses,and a days missed wages the presiding judge Will take this all into account.i would guess you are looking at a fine or charitable donation to either st vincent de Paul or a local addiction centre.depending on your circumstances this could be as little as €100 or as much as 600.leaving you without a conviction.hope this helps,and good luck with it.

ResearchWill

harry Bailey esq wrote: »

if the amount was minuscule as you say,no need for a solicitor.just hold your hand up,admit to the offence and be respectful to the court.no judge likes a smartass.a previous poster mentioned the fee of €250 for a solicitor to represent you.that estimate is spot on.unless you try to contest the case you won't need one however.im guessing from your post that you are in full time employment.also,you mention you must travel a considerable distance to attend court,which Will incur travel expenses,and a days missed wages the presiding judge Will take this all into account.i would guess you are looking at a fine or charitable donation to either st vincent de Paul or a local addiction centre.depending on your circumstances this could be as little as €100 or as much as 600.leaving you without a conviction.hope this helps,and good luck with it.

I know of at least 3 DJ'S who will never use Probation of Offenders Act for drugs, and will always record a conviction. This sort of local information is what a solicitor can provide. Also he can tell you how the CC will react to an appeal.

harry Bailey esq

i agree that certain judges have zero tolerance when it comes to drugs.however realistically,and i know from experience due to many court appearances in my youth the length and breadth of the land im ashamed to say,these judges are few and far between.when your case is called in a district court,you Will first be asked if you would like to apply for legal aid.in this case it would seem the op is not eligible for this.secondly,judges do NOT like solicitors all that much.thirdly,any and i mean any judge Will appreciate the defendant in any case not coming back a second time.solicitors are notorious(ask any member of an Garda this)for dragging cases out.more court time=more money for them.ill stick to my original advice to the op.turn up be respectful,enter an early plea.merry Christmas to you all.

ResearchWill

harry Bailey esq wrote: »

i agree that certain judges have zero tolerance when it comes to drugs.however realistically,and i know from experience due to many court appearances in my youth the length and breadth of the land im ashamed to say,these judges are few and far between.when your case is called in a district court,you Will first be asked if you would like to apply for legal aid.in this case it would seem the op is not eligible for this.secondly,judges do NOT like solicitors all that much.thirdly,any and i mean any judge Will appreciate the defendant in any case not coming back a second time.solicitors are notorious(ask any member of an Garda this)for dragging cases out.more court time=more money for them.ill stick to my original advice to the op.turn up be respectful,enter an early plea.merry Christmas to you all.

How can anyone be sure the OP will not get legal aid. Recent SC case has changed the rules about that. Secondly most solicitors would be stupid to drag a case out, the amount for each extra day is now tiny. If it is in the OP interest to plead he will be so advised. In any case it's not about pleading it's about is there any chance of getting probation of offenders Act. A good lawyer may be the difference to a drugs conviction being recorded and not.

harry Bailey esq

with all due respect Will,simple possession for personal use is highly unlikely to even result in probation.unless the op has been caught before which either you or i Will never know.solicitors as i said before,ARE notorious for dragging out cases.and as for the tiny fees you mention,after an initial consultation fee,the solicitors charge by the hour.and even the cheapest briefs fee could hardly be called tiny.if the op decides to take legal representation,albeit for peace of mind then very well.but as this is his or her first time in court ie first offence,its highly unlikely that probation and even less likely a conviction Will occur.some harsh words from the judge and a charitable contribution,a lost days wages and a 600k round trip in my own opinion is all the op has to worry about.it would be interesting if a Garda or somebody in the legal profession comes across this thread and see what they make of it.

harry Bailey esq

you make some fair points there i must say jg and i thanked your post.im speaking from personal experience.judges in general are Fair and just.and if the op was caught with a minimal amount,possession with intent would be laughed out of court.im not for a minute trying to dissuade the op from hiring a brief,all i am saying is early plea,open and shut case imo.it would seem the op was the victim of an over zealous young guard.question to the op.was the arresting officer a young cop?id bet it was.and like solicitors,judges ain't too fond of over eager guards either.a more experienced member of the uniformed Gardai and certainly not a detective would haul a guy into court unless they were a known troublemaker over enough for a joint or two.this doesn't seem to be the case here as the op lives 300k away.for the most part our legal system is solid,with some gaping holes regarding bail conditions for known criminals,but that's for a different thread.i personally think you Will be ok,its your 1st offence.if it Will make you sleep better hire a brief,but don't worry about it to the point of ruining your xmas.once again i wish you the best of luck,and let us know how it turns out.

ResearchWill

harry Bailey esq wrote: »

with all due respect Will,simple possession for personal use is highly unlikely to even result in probation.unless the op has been caught before which either you or i Will never know.solicitors as i said before,ARE notorious for dragging out cases.and as for the tiny fees you mention,after an initial consultation fee,the solicitors charge by the hour.and even the cheapest briefs fee could hardly be called tiny.if the op decides to take legal representation,albeit for peace of mind then very well.but as this is his or her first time in court ie first offence,its highly unlikely that probation and even less likely a conviction Will occur.some harsh words from the judge and a charitable contribution,a lost days wages and a 600k round trip in my own opinion is all the op has to worry about.it would be interesting if a Garda or somebody in the legal profession comes across this thread and see what they make of it.

All solicitors would do a section 3 drugs for a set fee no matter how many days in court. In legal aid the extra fees involved per day are now about €100 not worth your while dragging it out unless it is in the interest of the client. I don't think you understand the probation of offenders act, it is not probation, but it allows the judge to strike the matter out without recording a conviction.

A conviction will occur if he pleads guilty, that's the very definition of a conviction. You are guilty. But a proper plea in mitigation may result in the application of section 1 (1) of the probation of offenders act 1907. I am a barrister who works in criminal law, so I guess I'm a legal professional and you now know what I make of it.

I have kept a number of people who have made a mistake, conviction free because I know what I am talking about.

ResearchWill

harry Bailey esq wrote: »

you make some fair points there i must say jg and i thanked your post.im speaking from personal experience.judges in general are Fair and just.and if the op was caught with a minimal amount,possession with intent would be laughed out of court.im not for a minute trying to dissuade the op from hiring a brief,all i am saying is early plea,open and shut case imo.it would seem the op was the victim of an over zealous young guard.question to the op.was the arresting officer a young cop?id bet it was.and like solicitors,judges ain't too fond of over eager guards either.a more experienced member of the uniformed Gardai and certainly not a detective would haul a guy into court unless they were a known troublemaker over enough for a joint or two.this doesn't seem to be the case here as the op lives 300k away.for the most part our legal system is solid,with some gaping holes regarding bail conditions for known criminals,but that's for a different thread.i personally think you Will be ok,its your 1st offence.if it Will make you sleep better hire a brief,but don't worry about it to the point of ruining your xmas.once again i wish you the best of luck,and let us know how it turns out.

I hav been in the DC on many occasions and have seen many people up for €10 of hash, it's a main stay of many a DC in the country. And I can assure you I have to deal with many with such convictions, who I have to try and appeal years later because that section 3 conviction is stopping them getting in to america or Australia.

charlemont

ResearchWill wrote: »

I hav been in the DC on many occasions and have seen many people up for €10 of hash, it's a main stay of many a DC in the country. And I can assure you I have to deal with many with such convictions, who I have to try and appeal years later because that section 3 conviction is stopping them getting in to america or Australia.

Hit the nail on the head there....Its so true.

Mr Simpson

FeetMagicII wrote: »

That would be ideal if I had all the time but unfortunately I don't and I work about 300km from where the court case is so will only be venturing out there for the day

Out of interest OP, were you caught at a Festival. I know a few people who were caught at EP 2010. All the cases on that day were minor drug posessions, they were asked to donate to charity. I don't know if this helps, good luck.

drunkmonkey

If OP went it alone and unluckily ended up with a conviction could he appeal it straight away, then get legal representation?

ResearchWill

drunkmonkey wrote: »

If OP went it alone and unluckily ended up with a conviction could he appeal it straight away, then get legal representation?

Simple answer is yes, can appeal within 15 days, must remember to set recogs, for the appeal.

drunkmonkey

ResearchWill wrote: »

Simple answer is yes, can appeal within 15 days, must remember to set recogs, for the appeal.

Does that apply to all types of convictions, could you appeal a murder conviction for example?

ResearchWill

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Does that apply to all types of convictions, could you appeal a murder conviction for example?

Yes and no,

Any summary conviction can be appealed as of right with in 15 days. Summary is any District Court Case. such appeal acts as a stay on the order, of conviction and sentence.

Indictitment on the other hand is different, for one appeal is not automatic, usually the circuit court judge or in the case of murder the high court judge will refuse leave to appeal, as a matter of course. That refusal is then appealed to Court of Criminal Apoeal, it is normal to hear the appeal against refusal and the appeal proper on th same day. The appeal or appeal against refusal does not act as a stay on conviction or sentence. But it is possible to seek bail pending appeal but very hard to get it.

twowheelsonly

The other thing to remember is that there are two types of appeal, Appeal against Conviction, and Appeal against Severity of Sentence.

If you plead guilty then you can't appeal against conviction but can still appeal against severity of sentence should it be harsh in the extreme (Which is unlikely in this case)

IMO, as the OP has no court experience, hire a solicitor but tell him that you want it dealt with on the day.

Somebody mentioned that the fees are miniscule and not worth a solicitors while getting cases put back - yet it happens day after day in the DC for 'Mickey Mouse' cases. Why??? Because if he gets 6 cases put back today that's 6 extra payments the next day and it's far from miniscule.

drunkmonkey

Can you request for a different Judge when appealing in thr DC, do Judges take a dim view of this and quite possibly hold up the previous conviction or even add to it?

No previous or pending just curious, thanks and Merry Christmas : )

drunkmonkey

What I meant there was for example, OP gets a donation of $500 from a harsh Judge, can he appeal, get a different judge without risking a more severe sentence?

harry Bailey esq

well im in no position to argue with a member of the bar Will.but as you and i both know,there are no mitigating factors for simple possession.if there are id like to hear an example.a barrister like yourself Will only be called in after a not guilty plea.as we both mentioned in previous posts it depends on the judge,and to a lesser extent the circuit the judge works.ie driving over the limit in donegal the book Will be thrown at you.likewise dodgy diesel in Louth or monaghan.you and i both know that its very rare for a first time offender to get a conviction,unless said offence is a particularly serious one.a guilty plea does not automaticly mean conviction.iv entered many guilty plea's,paid fines ect without conviction.as for the 100 legal aid daily fee i can't dispute that.but at a district court sitting a solicitor could be and usually is representing 10 or more different cases no?anecdotetely have you ever in court seen a guy on his 1st offence for a minuscule amount of cannabis be convicted?

johnnyskeleton

ResearchWill wrote: »

Indictitment on the other hand is different, for one appeal is not automatic, usually the circuit court judge or in the case of murder the high court judge will refuse leave to appeal, as a matter of course. That refusal is then appealed to Court of Criminal Apoeal, it is normal to hear the appeal against refusal and the appeal proper on th same day.

Are you sure that there isn't an automatic right of appeal? Hasn't the old system of seeking leave to appeal been abolished?

twowheelsonly wrote: »

The other thing to remember is that there are two types of appeal, Appeal against Conviction, and Appeal against Severity of Sentence.

If you plead guilty then you can't appeal against conviction but can still appeal against severity of sentence should it be harsh in the extreme (Which is unlikely in this case)

It's a de novo appeal so I believe that you can reverse your plea. However, a Judge may wish to hear the reasons for this reversal. Whether they are entitled to know about the guilty plea in the District Court, and the exact parameters of what inferences they can draw from it, is less clear. Arguably they should not be told of this at all, but in practical terms they will know what happened in the District Court or at least have an idea of what sort of order was made.

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Somebody mentioned that the fees are miniscule and not worth a solicitors while getting cases put back - yet it happens day after day in the DC for 'Mickey Mouse' cases. Why??? Because if he gets 6 cases put back today that's 6 extra payments the next day and it's far from miniscule.

Although it is very easy to bash solicitors in the current climate, in reality a case will not be put back by a judge unless there is a specific reason to do so, whether that be outstanding disclosure, to obtain a report or some other legitimate reason.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

What I meant there was for example, OP gets a donation of $500 from a harsh Judge, can he appeal, get a different judge without risking a more severe sentence?

The appeal will be not only to a different judge, but a different level of judge i.e. a circuit court judge as opposed to a district court judge. The appeal itself is a fresh appeal (from the start) so it is not capped or affected by what happened in the District Court.

In the case of a donation, usually a judge will ask if the person is prepared to make a donation rather than order one out of nowhere. If a person agrees to a donation with a strike out recognisances are not normally set and it would be highly incongrous for someone to appeal. If it is a fine, $500 (USD?) is AFAIK around the top level of fine for a first conviction of drugs offence (I think it is about €400 but can't be sure), so if someone got the maximum statutory sentence allowed the Circuit Court Judge cannot increase it beyond the statutory maximum.


Sorry if that's a little confusing.


@ harry Bailey esq - quite apart from the rights and wrongs in real life of a non lawyer advising someone to plead guilty to something that they know very little about in an unspecified courtroom based on an unspecified quantity of drugs, it is against the forum charter to give legal advice. Since the mods may be on Xmas holidays, I will simply say that the OP should seek independent legal advice and shouldn't listen to anyone who tries to advise them on an anonymous internet forum (including me, so the OP doesn't have to go to a solicitor if he or she does not wish to). The OP should be aware that boards.ie will not take any responsibility if such advice is taken and acted upon to his or her detriment.

harry Bailey esq

@mod im not giving legal advice to the op,im not qualified to do so.the op asked a question,and has received opinions from both sides of the fence.as iv mentioned numerous times i am speaking from personal experience.i am familiar with the court system,and i can't see the op getting a conviction.first time in court,in gainful employment,and travelling a 600k round trip to attend court.im just trying to put this poor guys mind at ease.not give legal advice.i have faith in our justice system,most judges are fair.and i simply don't think they should worry too much about it.its an opinion im putting across,not legal advice.

ResearchWill

harry Bailey esq wrote: »

well im in no position to argue with a member of the bar Will.but as you and i both know,there are no mitigating factors for simple possession.if there are id like to hear an example.a barrister like yourself Will only be called in after a not guilty plea.as we both mentioned in previous posts it depends on the judge,and to a lesser extent the circuit the judge works.ie driving over the limit in donegal the book Will be thrown at you.likewise dodgy diesel in Louth or monaghan.you and i both know that its very rare for a first time offender to get a conviction,unless said offence is a particularly serious one.a guilty plea does not automaticly mean conviction.iv entered many guilty plea's,paid fines ect without conviction.as for the 100 legal aid daily fee i can't dispute that.but at a district court sitting a solicitor could be and usually is representing 10 or more different cases no?anecdotetely have you ever in court seen a guy on his 1st offence for a minuscule amount of cannabis be convicted?

In answer to a few statements you have made, if you have paid a fine that is a conviction. On the record it will say convicted, if on the other hand the court says pay money to charity I will then POA or strike it out then no conviction. But I can assure you fine = Conviction, and a drugs conviction with €100 fine will more than likely stop a peron getting a visa for US and in some cases getting a job.

And yes I have seen many a guy on first offence for drugs get a conviction. They will not get jail but they have got a conviction.

The difference between no solicitor and a good one, is a good one knows the judge, will advise you on what you need to do to limit the chances of getting a conviction recorded.

In relation to mitigation, there are many to simple possession, the guy is not doing it any more, and have proof. He is a hard working person, conviction may mean no job. He is a student of X, a conviction may result in hardship. And many more.

ResearchWill

drunkmonkey wrote: »

What I meant there was for example, OP gets a donation of $500 from a harsh Judge, can he appeal, get a different judge without risking a more severe sentence?

A donation is not really something you can appeal, the payment of a donation is not a punishment as such, and is usually paid to avoid conviction.

In relation to a different judge, if you appeal from the DC to the circuit court it of course will be a different judge as it will be a circuit court judge. If you appeal from circuit cour to court of Criminal appeal, it will be 2 judge of the high court and 1 supreme court judge, who hear the appeal.

johnnyskeleton

harry Bailey esq wrote: »

@mod im not giving legal advice to the op,im not qualified to do so.the op asked a question,and has received opinions from both sides of the fence.as iv mentioned numerous times i am speaking from personal experience.i am familiar with the court system,and i can't see the op getting a conviction.first time in court,in gainful employment,and travelling a 600k round trip to attend court.im just trying to put this poor guys mind at ease.not give legal advice.i have faith in our justice system,most judges are fair.and i simply don't think they should worry too much about it.its an opinion im putting across,not legal advice.

Saying that no conviction on a guilty plea is common is legal discussion. Saying that the op should plead guilty because he is unlikely to get a conviction is legal advice.

This rule is for your benefit as much as anyone else's; what if it goes wrong fo him and he sues you for giving him bad advice?

harry Bailey esq

@johnny that's fair enough,perhaps i maybe worded my posts badly,what i mean to convey is the opinions on my posts are the course of action i personally,would take.which was the question the op asked at the start of this thread.as for the notion of the op taking me to court,what would a judge make of that?ill tell you what the judge would say,'jimmy tells you to put your hand in the fire,you burnt yourfingers.your choice to do it'and who would gain from this mickey mouse case??you guessed it,our old friends,the solicitors.

FreudianSlippers

No legal advice, especially advice on pleading in criminal matters. Infractions and/or bans will follow.