Commercial V Private Tax

MrFoxman360

I am aware that the whole issue of commercial tax v private tax, and commercial and private jeeps or 4x4's has been discussed to death on this forum but it never ceases to amaze me how many jeeps manage to slip through loopholes or find some way of cheating the system and end up for sale.

As to how the potential owner of this Amazon plans on getting by a customs / Garda checkpoint, never mind the insurance issues, and getting it tested etc...

http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/commercials/2778586

Eric Cartman

id say either a lazy tax office or it was presented for VRT without the 3rd row of seats and some sort of makeshift bulkhead that was removed, either way at best case scenario , if you put in a bulkhead behind the 2nd row of seats youd fool most into calling it a crewcab, not a hope with the 3rd row

Deer Hunter DL

these and the normal lwb landcruiser were built from new and classed as a crewcab the 2 rear seats in the very back are normally removed as these would normally be 7 setters , so this amazon is most likly all above board

CJhaughey

Deer Hunter DL wrote: »

these and the normal lwb landcruiser were built from new and classed as a crewcab the 2 rear seats in the very back are normally removed as these would normally be 7 setters , so this amazon is most likly all above board

I thought the only ones that had crewcab designation were the <2003 models, and that was only because Toyota Ireland cut a big hole in the back floor and welded a black steel box in there. This allowed them to comply with a volumetric measurement for VRT at the time.
Subsequently the measurement changed and became a proportion of loadspace behind the driver.

MrFoxman360

Deer Hunter DL wrote: »

these and the normal lwb landcruiser were built from new and classed as a crewcab the 2 rear seats in the very back are normally removed as these would normally be 7 setters , so this amazon is most likly all above board

Yea, there's no way this one is above board, crewcab amazons eneded in june 2003, and even at that they had to have a bulk head behind the rear seats. Don't think Toyota Ireland ever converted any new amazons to commercials, as far as I know, they were all private or dealer conversions.

Deer Hunter DL

sorry i stand corrected , i didn't pay much hed to the reg there , i do wonder how it is commercial now then

Theanswers

Probally someone in the tax office.

However just a quick point, if everything is correct as per log book I doubt theres much revenue/customs can do.

Dont think a guard would care once log book is up to date.

If it says 7 seats/ own goods well thats what it is..
You cant seize it once it is being used for work and is AS described in their log book.

That's just my thinking.

Mac Tire

Hey Guys and Gals,


Im thinking of getting a wee jeep for my new business but from chatting to a mate of mines, who has a similar jeep, i was wondering if anyone could help me out...

He has a 00 Jeep Cherokee, a 5 seater which is down on the log book as a crew cab, therefore making it commercial to tax. I was looking at a 2 seater Jeep like this, so im wondering can a 2 seater commercial be changed to a 5 seater crew cab....he told me if the back windows ( 3/4 windows ) are panels your laughing, the rear isnt even paneled off behind the seats, it looks like a standard 5 seater with panelled windows!!...as he can tax his as commercial even though it has 5 seats....

Any ideas and help welcomed!!

colm_mcm

He's breaking the law.

simple as.

101sean

I've merged these threads as the vehicles are similar.

The Jeep is a similar case to the Amazon, changed to commercial before the regulations were tightened. You can't get away with doing that now.

911s

Just reading thread on general motors forun on Landrover Discovery 5 seat commercials. Does anybody know if any other brands can use this N1 class, or is it only possible on Discovery?. Sounds like the perfect vehicle for our use (have already been through the crew-cab phase, don't like solid bulkhead, full commercial no good as occasionally need extra seating, don't mind private tax to keep things above board, reg. for vat so tax savings possible), just afraid of reliability issues with Land Rover.
We have always been VW, BMW etc. so would Discovery be a let down or have a lot of the problems been ironed out over it's lifetime?
As a previous poster on the Motors thread mentioned a Landcruiser Amazon in this class tax woule be the perfect machine, or even a BMW X5.
Just wondering if this class, N1, is based on wheelbase, load size or weight capacity, like the old crew cab system was based.

Markodoh

Hi all, just wondering is it possible to get commercial tax for a crew-cab if its not being used for commercial use? if this is not possible how do you go about taxing it? cheers

101sean

Threads merged.

Markodoh, welcome. This subject has been covered several times but basically, no you can't commercially tax it for private use. The motor tax offices won't issue it without proof of business use and that you have the employees to use the seats, they've been getting stricter on this over the last year or so.

There's no problem taxing it privately apart from the cost!

911s
New class N1 Discovery 4 commercials don't have rear seats, the one mentioned in that thread shouldn't be N1. Freelander 2 commercials are the same.

The only Land Rover that is N1 and has rear seats is the Defender and are all N1 no matter how they are built inc 7 seat station wagon

All new commercials have to be factory built so there's no more nonsense like Range Rover and X5 commercials. You can still get Land Cruiser commercials but they will not have rear seats.

911s

Thanks for reply Sean. However at least 3 different dealers are advertising
5 seater N1 Discoverys (alongside normal 2 seater commercial Disco). Have only spoken to 2 of them on phone and they assure me everything above board.
Another dealer is advertising a 'Business Edition' Disco at the same sort of price range so I assume same deal. They say that the vat can be claimed back on the purchase price but car must be taxed as private????
Will try to get more info next week, but seems to be a strange set-up, but could be very benificial tax wise, apart from the obvious savings in purchase price.

Am now awaiting your reply re. relaibility !!!:D

colm_mcm

That amazon in the first post seems to have kanes of granary number plate surrounds so god knows what was done to it and how it got registered.

101sean

The commercial from the factory has no seats so I don't know how the dealers are doing it. Could it just be a VAT dodge, still paying full VRT but makes a significant saving if you can write VAT off against the business? Effectively a passenger one but just calling them a business edition. Whether it's private or commercial motor tax is a separate issue, how the vehicle was acquired is irrelevant but you'd struggle to get it commercially taxed these days :rolleyes:

I know very little about D4s but Land Rover's reliability is pretty good these days and the engines are very good. There's a D4 forum where you'll find any warranty issues etc http://www.disco4.com/forum/

Markodoh

101sean wrote: »

Threads merged.

Markodoh, welcome. This subject has been covered several times but basically, no you can't commercially tax it for private use. The motor tax offices won't issue it without proof of business use and that you have the employees to use the seats, they've been getting stricter on this over the last year or so.

There's no problem taxing it privately apart from the cost!

911s
New class N1 Discovery 4 commercials don't have rear seats, the one mentioned in that thread shouldn't be N1. Freelander 2 commercials are the same.

The only Land Rover that is N1 and has rear seats is the Defender and are all N1 no matter how they are built inc 7 seat station wagon

All new commercials have to be factory built so there's no more nonsense like Range Rover and X5 commercials. You can still get Land Cruiser commercials but they will not have rear seats.

101 Sean, thanks. I tought as much. Still i wonder what the story is if say I was to buy a second hand,03, l200 that had been commercially taxed and had 2 months of tax left on it when I buy it would the tax renewal form not just be posted to me once the change of ownership form had been submitted therefore allowing me to just renew the commercial tax online?

doctorchopper

Markodoh wrote: »

101 Sean, thanks. I tought as much. Still i wonder what the story is if say I was to buy a second hand,03, l200 that had been commercially taxed and had 2 months of tax left on it when I buy it would the tax renewal form not just be posted to me once the change of ownership form had been submitted therefore allowing me to just renew the commercial tax online?

You can not tax a commercial on line, you have to go into the motor tax office or you can do it by post.

Fishtits

Guys, its an anomoly.

The regulations at that time specced a certain amount of space.

Toyota copped this and I believe there were 70 '80 series LC's configured with a boot box to meet this requirement.

It was closed off sharpish but they - 7 seat 80 series with commercial tax are definitely still out there.

Cheap road tax but 17 MPG?

And piss poor 4x4 performance?

CJhaughey

Fishtits wrote: »

Guys, its an anomoly.

The regulations at that time specced a certain amount of space.

Toyota copped this and I believe there were 70 '80 series LC's configured with a boot box to meet this requirement.

It was closed off sharpish but they - 7 seat 80 series with commercial tax are definitely still out there.

Cheap road tax but 17 MPG?

And piss poor 4x4 performance?

Yes but they closed that off in 2003 not later.

911s

Got more info from a dealer today. Disco retails for approx 55k and you can reclaim approx 8k vat, said something about vat being reclaimed on pre vrt price, not full market price. Car has to be taxed as private (1300?), can be fully written off by business and attracts BIK at same rate as van.
He said this was fully legal and cleared with revenue. I wonder if you sold it later would you have to charge vat, at what rate and on what % of vehicle value.
Sounds like a very good deal for business use, if only it were any other car bar a Land Rover!!

101sean

That sounds logical. If it's a base spec one, the same thing in the UK is £38,000, €45,000 inc VAT :rolleyes:

Markodoh

Hi guys,
I'm aware how more strict the regulations are nowadays but does anyone now exactly what is involved in taxing a commercial for the first time. What exact documents need to be produced if any? Would a letter from a registered company connecting you to that company be suffice? Is it just a separate section on a normal tax from for commercial use? Or does it vary from tax office to tax office?

skippey

doctorchopper wrote: »

You can not tax a commercial on line, you have to go into the motor tax office or you can do it by post.

I Taxed 3 trucks on line at the start of December and got the disks in the post 2 days later so they must have changed their policy lately thankfully

doctorchopper

Has anyone registered a used commercial recently without vat number, any hassles?

aujopimur

You do not need a VAT no., many small traders and other self employed people trade without a VAT no.
Your PPS no. should be used.

doctorchopper

aujopimur wrote: »

You do not need a VAT no., many small traders and other self employed people trade without a VAT no.
Your PPS no. should be used.

Yes I realize this and have been told this by others but am looking to hear from someone who has actually gone through this. There doesn't seem to be anything in writing anywhere on this.

101sean

There was a massive thread on the Motors forum about this, several posters stated that they had used their PPS number. The Motor Tax offices and several of their websites have a list of what they accept as proof for commercial tax.

doctorchopper

101sean wrote: »

There was a massive thread on the Motors forum about this, several posters stated that they had used their PPS number. The Motor Tax offices and several of their websites have a list of what they accept as proof for commercial tax.

Thanks very much, i try and stay away from the motors forum as there seems to be a lot of useless threads you have to sift through, I prefer the 4x4 forum as thats what i have.

Tim the Enchanter

I don't know if this is any help to you, but you can register a commercial vehicle as a PAYE worker as well, if you can provide evidence of commercial insurance along with a letter from your employer stating that you will be using the vehicle as part of your work

doctorchopper

Tim the Enchanter wrote: »

I don't know if this is any help to you, but you can register a commercial vehicle as a PAYE worker as well, if you can provide evidence of commercial insurance along with a letter from your employer stating that you will be using the vehicle as part of your work

Thats exactly the kind of info i'm looking for, many thanks

blackharvester

hi, when i was registering my van in roadtax office they asked for my PPS numeber as I am self employer, if i wouldnt be self employer i would need to sing up declaration that i am gona use my van only for work / not for private uses, it was about year ago

Fishtits

Please enlighten us as to how?

I Taxed the jeep two weeks ago and had to hand in a cert that says "roadworthy" from the test centre, to be handed another cert that also said "roadworthy" from my local authority, and was charged in the process.

And these guys in Government expect us to take the pain for public sector incompetence?

Git F*cked.

I've had enough.

doctorchopper

Fishtits wrote: »

Please enlighten us as to how?

I Taxed the jeep two weeks ago and had to hand in a cert that says "roadworthy" from the test centre, to be handed another cert that also said "roadworthy" from my local authority, and was charged in the process.

And these guys in Government expect us to take the pain for public sector incompetence?

Git F*cked.

I've had enough.

Ya the whole cert thing is a scam, here is how to tax online, but i'm sure they will still charge you to print out a cert
https://www.motortax.ie/OMT/staticContent.do?page=commercialinfo

skippey

Fishtits wrote: »

Please enlighten us as to how?

I Taxed the jeep two weeks ago and had to hand in a cert that says "roadworthy" from the test centre, to be handed another cert that also said "roadworthy" from my local authority, and was charged in the process.

And these guys in Government expect us to take the pain for public sector incompetence?

Git F*cked.

I've had enough.

Went in to tax office with 7 trucks to tax for 3 months mostly Coming to about €9000 in total

Now I knew from previous experience that they would only tax 4 vehicles at a time from 1 personand would make me queue again for the other 3:mad:
As I presumed the man behind the counter told me he was only following the rules that he could only tax 4 at a time but then to my surprise he said that I can tax the other 3 on line if I had a current doe cert for each truck and a pin number which is on their reminder letter for each vehicle
So I went home and did exactly that and received the other 3 in the post two days later;)

Just a note if you have just got your commercial doe cert from a test centre you must go to the tax office to get their official one before the above will work and you must have a pin number from their reminder letter

This I think is something new they have thankfully brought in and who ever brought it in should be commended
It saves me about 3 hours of rushing around, traffic, ever growing queues every time I go to tax stuff
Regards, skippey

CJhaughey

skippey wrote: »

Went in to tax office with 7 trucks to tax for 3 months mostly Coming to about €9000 in total

Now I knew from previous experience that they would only tax 4 vehicles at a time from 1 personand would make me queue again for the other 3:mad:
As I presumed the man behind the counter told me he was only following the rules that he could only tax 4 at a time but then to my surprise he said that I can tax the other 3 on line if I had a current doe cert for each truck and a pin number which is on their reminder letter for each vehicle
So I went home and did exactly that and received the other 3 in the post two days later;)

Just a note if you have just got your commercial doe cert from a test centre you must go to the tax office to get their official one before the above will work and you must have a pin number from their reminder letter

This I think is something new they have thankfully brought in and who ever brought it in should be commended
It saves me about 3 hours of rushing around, traffic, ever growing queues every time I go to tax stuff
Regards, skippey

That must be for HGVs? I just got my renewal and it has no PIN on it
It does mention that the CRW is due in April
Mine is assessed at 1800kg. SWB Toyota LC

skippey

CJhaughey wrote: »

That must be for HGVs? I just got my renewal and it has no PIN on it
It does mention that the CRW is due in April
Mine is assessed at 1800kg. SWB Toyota LC

As far is I know it's for any commercial with a valid doe cert allready issued to you before they send you a reminder (with a pin number) for your road tax
but if you ring the tax office and get the right person on the other line they will set you straight

doyle61

Markodoh wrote: »

Hi guys,
I'm aware how more strict the regulations are nowadays but does anyone now exactly what is involved in taxing a commercial for the first time. What exact documents need to be produced if any? Would a letter from a registered company connecting you to that company be suffice? Is it just a separate section on a normal tax from for commercial use? Or does it vary from tax office to tax office?

For taxing a commercial for the first time you need
1) weigh docket. Go to a quarry etc and their usually very obliging
2) DOE cert
3) VAT details (I presume)
4) If not vat registered (applies to me) go to Garda bks and get an rf111a form signed and stamped and produce this with the rest of your documentation at the tax office along with your pps number. Note; this is a declaration that the jeep will be used as a commercial but your not vat reg and your pps number will be able to verify what you work at eg I'm an electrician working in public sector so can't be vat reg but need jeep to carry tools so this form covers me

doyle61

Yes I go this route, infact I'm just after replying in another thread about it.
Rf111a form stamped in Garda bks along with your pps number in tax office.

doyle61

Hey lads wondering how to do this. Basically I have a KIA sorento commercial which was converted from a passenger by the last owners. I'm planning on selling it soon and was going to say that it can be converted back as the full vrt has already been payed. When I got the jeep they gave me the rear seats with it. Now what I want to know is can it actually be reconverted or would the past owners have got a vrt reimbursal and so full vrt would have to be payed again??
Doesn't really bother me about the whole thing but just thought if it could be converted it'll open up an extra Market to me. Cheers

doctorchopper

i converted my passenger pajero to commercial and they didn't refund any vat and doubt that they would refund vat to anyone. Only problem you might have is all the seatbelt mounts and seat mounts are meant to be welded over, if this is the case its a good chance you won't be able to put seats back in.

tinofapples

Doing so will also increase the road tax liability from under 300 to over 1000 !!

doyle61

ye good point about the tax alright. could just say rear seats are available:D. the seat mounting points were never welded up and the belts were just stuffed behind the plastic panels..............how it passed initial inspection ill never know but it did.
its not tax rebates im on about but VRT rebate ie if it was initaly a passanger jeep it would need full VRT wheres commercial VRT(at the time) was around €50, so would the past owner have got the difference in VRT reimbursed, and if so could it be repayed to reconvert it to a passanger jeep.
ah i dont know ill probally just sell it as a commercial and let the new owner sort it out if they want

101sean

In all the posts there's been about commercialising jeeps already Irish registered I've never read of VRT being reimbursed, once paid that's it. The conversion to get a DOE isn't as onerous as what was needed for commercial VRT which is probably why the mounts etc are still there.

doyle61

So in other words because the full vrt is already paid on my jeep I can advertise that it can be reconverted to passenger if the new buyer wants??

JohnBoy

from a VRT point of view yes, from a road tax point of view afaik you can't go back.

it's part of why you're supposed to weld up the mounts.

Eric Cartman

doyle61 wrote: »

So in other words because the full vrt is already paid on my jeep I can advertise that it can be reconverted to passenger if the new buyer wants??

you could if the seatbelt mounts and eveything are still intact, wouldnt say thered be much market for it,

101sean

Recent tax threads merged again.

freddieot

I'm thinking of buying a new passenger 4x4 for my own private use. (I don't have a business or commercial use etc. )

Just before Chistmas I spoke to a Land Rover dealer who told me that the new Discovery Utility is priced at about 54k which is obviously a lot of cash but a heck of a lot less than the usual passenger Discovery prices.

Apparently this has something to do with it being classed as a commercial vehicle even though it has 5 seats and basically looks like any other passenger Discovery.

He said it would cost about 1,300 to tax and that private insurance should not be an issue.

Has anyone any experience of this ?

The latest Road Tax rates (private or commercial) don't seem to have this 1,300 rate included ?
Would I still be able to insure this as a private vehicle ?

Not saying the dealer is being dishonest by the way but how exactly can this work given our horiffic tax laws ?

101sean

Hi Freddieot

Merged the thread as it was discussed at the start of this one. The only saving on this as far as I can see is that you can reclaim the VAT if you are a business.

Private road tax will be €2258 pa based on 230g emissions :eek:

Fine choice of vehicle though