Men, Paedophilia and Young Children.

later12

The current thread on paedophilia reminded me of an issue that has bugged me for some time, which is the issue of friendship between men and young children.

I am a 25 year old guy, and perhaps because of a bit of a Peter Pan syndrome or just an incurable fascination with lego, I usually get on very well with post-toddler stage kids.

When I was younger, I would have no hesitation about making random conversation with little kids in restaurants, shopping centres, or in a queue at the bus stop, much in the same way one might pet a dog who idly waits for his owner.

In the last few years, I've been increasingly self conscious about doing so. And some of my other male friends feel similarly. My brother once told me he prefers to ask strange women to take his young daughter into the female changing rooms at the swimming pool than to take charge of the situation himself. I myself would feel a bit uncomfortable in being too friendly with kids outside of my immediate family circle.

I think that stories of paedophilia which constantly feature the news media may have created a situation whereby men now feel too paranoid to engage with children in a way that ought otherwise be normal social interaction, or ways in which women might be able to do so.

Have any other guys felt similarly?

Do people think this is a lesser evil if the end result is the safeguarding of children, and can this new social limit really safeguard children at all?

robbie_998

If i was out with my nephew or the likes and a man of 25+ years of age just wanted to talk to him then i'd be taking extreme cautions !


I would pet a dog and what not if it was on its own or even with the owner.

but just randomly walking up and starting a conversation with a child ?

sounds too fishy thanks.

dogs are good as their animals and there a different kinds and breeds and the likes and are rare enough

but there are many children everywhere, i wouldnt be even looking at them for more than a second

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

later10 wrote: »

The current thread on paedophilia reminded me of an issue that has bugged me for some time, which is the issue of friendship between men and young children.

I am a 25 year old guy, and perhaps because of a bit of a Peter Pan syndrome or just an incurable fascination with lego, I usually get on very well with post-toddler stage kids.

When I was younger, I would have no hesitation about making random conversation with little kids in restaurants, shopping centres, or in a queue at the bus stop, much in the same way one might pet a dog who idly waits for his owner.

In the last few years, I've been increasingly self conscious about doing so. And some of my other male friends feel similarly. My brother once told me he prefers to ask strange women to take his young daughter into the female changing rooms at the swimming pool than to take charge of the situation himself. I myself would feel a bit uncomfortable in being too friendly with kids outside of my immediate family circle.

I think that stories of paedophilia which constantly feature the news media may have created a situation whereby men now feel too paranoid to engage with children in a way that ought otherwise be normal social interaction, or ways in which women might be able to do so.

Have any other guys felt similarly?

Do people think this is a lesser evil if the end result is the safeguarding of children, and can this new social limit really safeguard children at all?

Personally, I think it's probably the kids who suffer, especailly when you consider men who might be excellent teachers or volunteer workers are too scared to do so.

That said, we're all to blame: we all read the stories, we all feel the fear and let's face it, we all believe the accusations before they're ever proven.

later12

robbie_998 wrote: »

If i was out with my nephew or the likes and a man of 25+ years of age just wanted to talk to him then i'd be taking extreme cautions !

I don't mean just randomly walking up to someone and talking to their child (although I've seen girls do similar); I'm talking about slightly more natural situations. Like waiting around a bus stop and saying hello, or sitting at the next table over in a restaurant and saying 'hi there, what's your name?'

Oh God I sound like a right pervert... which illustrates my point a little...

myflipflops

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Personally, I think it's probably the kids who suffer, especailly when you consider men who might be excellent teachers or volunteer workers are too scared to do so.

One issue we will certainly have is sports coaching.

Most sports organisations in Ireland rely nearly completely on volunteers to coach/manage/supervise teams/athletes. The way things are going, the numbers of non-parents volunteering will continue to fall off massively. As you say, this is purely to the detriment of kids.

Chuck Stone

later10 wrote: »

Oh God I sound like a right pervert... which illustrates my point a little...

No you don't. You sound like a person who gets on well with kids.

Blatter

An element of taboo has definitely crept into society with regards innocently interacting with children. The Michael Jackson case and the recent revelations of abuse within the Catholic church has obviously contributed to much of this fear.

It is unfortunate that this taboo is to the detriment of innocent adults(and the children themselves) who enjoy engaging with children, but at the same time, if it makes it more difficult for paedophiles to seduce children, society has to be seen as a better place for it.

Chuck Stone

myflipflops wrote: »

One issue we will certainly have is sports coaching.

Most sports organisations in Ireland rely nearly completely on volunteers to coach/manage/supervise teams/athletes. The way things are going, the numbers of non-parents volunteering will continue to fall off massively. As you say, this is purely to the detriment of kids.

I'm not sure if they have to but volunteers can receive child protection training.

I've done a bit of volunteering for Ogra Chorcai and I had to do it.

Pretty basic stuff about keeping young people safe and yourself safe from false accusation.

psychward

later10 wrote: »

My brother once told me he prefers to ask strange women to take his young daughter into the female changing rooms at the swimming pool than to take charge of the situation himself.

I would never allow my toddler to get taken into a changing room or elsewhere by a stranger. You don't abandon the duty you are sworn to protect.

As for the rest of your post, it's just common sense combined with your changing role in life. When you were little were you not told to be careful about adult strangers ? Now the roles have switched and you are the adult stranger. What exactly is your problem with that ?

later12

psychward wrote: »

I would never allow my toddler to get taken into a changing room or elsewhere by a stranger. You don't abandon the duty you are sworn to protect.

I think his alternatives were 'bring her to the men's changing room and let her change there' or go to the women's changing room himself, which have their own problems.

psychward wrote: »

When you were little were you not told to be careful about adult strangers ?

Not in the contexts, I described, no. I think most people were raised to be pleasant to adults when there were other adults around, like in the situations I described.

The issue isn't with children anyway; moreso that a guy might not want to be seen to take too much of an interest in other people's children.

Jesus Wept

The focus on strangers is bewildering.
As per the SAVI report: 80% of children know their abuser, consisting of family members and other persons known to the child.

Other reports have put the percentage of children that are abused by 'strangers' as low as 3%.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I'm not sure if they have to but volunteers can receive child protection training.

I've done a bit of volunteering for Ogra Chorcai and I had to do it.

Pretty basic stuff about keeping young people safe and yourself safe from false accusation.

Garda vetting also is a complete shambles, I know for a fact that it doesn't happen in many cases or that people are allowed access to children while they await clearance.

Whatever system they have in place is completely ****e as it can take months. Months for a few garda stations to send a letter around to each other rather than communicate like anyone else in the 21st century, it should be possible to get garda clearance in a matter of days if not hours, not weeks and in many cases - months and months.

MagicSean

There's way too much fear in society at the moment. I can remember more than one incident where a person has rang for gardai to go to help someone, a child or a young woman, because they were in some distress. The person who rang in would not be willing to get involved for fear of being accused of doing something inappropriate.

I seem to remember something similar being discussed not too long ago. A man who was out walking saw a child fall of his bike and picked him up. The child's mother came out and attacked the man and told him to keep away from her son.

mickrock

If I was a woman and was walking in a park and saw some young children playing I wouldn't have any hesitation in sitting on a nearby bench and watching them for a while. It's delightful to see the joy and innocence in young children as they play.

As a man, though, it's not something I would feel comfortable doing and I would just walk on. In today's society a man looking at children in this sort of situation would be regarded with suspicion. It's a shame really.

CliffHuxtabel

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

That said, we're all to blame: we all read the stories, we all feel the fear and let's face it, we all believe the accusations before they're ever proven.

Speak for yourself

I've ended up teaching young kids here in Vietnam and had this conversation with another teacher.. Adults aren't viewed as 50/50 paedofiles so we can be a lot more natural here. Whether it's on the street or in the classroom, if a kid wants to be picked up or wants a hug, you can do it without it being weird. I'd never ever do that in Ireland.

If a man is nice to a woman, she'll probably think he fancies her.. If he's nice to her kid, she'll prob think he fancies them too.

augustus gloop

i have found myself in the same mind frame as the OP, i love children, as i have none of my own, i knock great fun out of them, so with the sinister issues surrounding males befriending children, if even for 2 mins at a bus stop, i think it is sad cynical times

jackie1974

The-Rigger wrote: »

The focus on strangers is bewildering. As per the SAVI report: 80% of children know their abuser, consisting of family members and other persons known to the child.
Other reports have put the percentage of children that are abused by 'strangers' as low as 3%.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I'm not sure if they have to but volunteers can receive child protection training. I've done a bit of volunteering for Ogra Chorcai and I had to do it. Pretty basic stuff about keeping young people safe and yourself safe from false accusation.

Garda vetting also is a complete shambles, I know for a fact that it doesn't happen in many cases or that people are allowed access to children while they await clearance.
Whatever system they have in place is completely ****e as it can take months. Months for a few garda stations to send a letter around to each other rather than communicate like anyone else in the 21st century, it should be possible to get garda clearance in a matter of days if not hours, not weeks and in many cases - months and months.

I agree, garda vetting is a joke. where I work we can be waiting months for a vetting to be processed. Also the process is flawed, people can easily leave out an address and get away with it, I may be wrong but afaik there's two members of staff processing the forms for the whole country.

One poster said that if men keeping their distance stops chrildren from being abused thats a good thing but it doesn't because pedophiles are crafty and devise ways of getting contact with children. They don't chat at bus stops or in restaraunts. They make it their mission to be involved in the life of a child or children so they can abuse without getting caught.

As parents we are so worried about the guy in the park or the pool because that is how the child abuser has been portrayed in the media but really people should keep their eyes peeled closer to home and make sure their child knew about appropriate touch and could come to them with any concerns.

I have absolutely no problem with anybody chatting with my kids, male or female, I hate that children are being brought up feeling suspicious of adults especially around this time of year when a lot of santas are not even allowed sit a kid on their knee incase allegations are made against him.

PrincessLola

mickrock wrote: »

If I was a woman and was walking in a park and saw some young children playing I wouldn't have any hesitation in sitting on a nearby bench and watching them for a while. It's delightful to see the joy and innocence in young children as they play.

As a man, though, it's not something I would feel comfortable doing and I would just walk on. In today's society a man looking at children in this sort of situation would be regarded with suspicion. It's a shame really.

Really? Cause I'm a girl and I'd feel like a creeper

Loomis

CliffHuxtabel wrote: »

Speak for yourself

I think he has a point with this.

If someone is accused of something like that and is subsequently cleared of charges, there will always remain some who think the person guilty because of "you don't get accused of that by mistake" type thinking.

Same thing happens if a guy is accused of raping someone. They're the type of things that ruin lives if the person is innocent.

hooradiation

To quote a philosopher king

"Thou shalt not think that any male over the age of 30 that plays with a child that is not their own is a peadophile... Some people are just nice."
Dan Le Sac Vs Scroobius Pip. (2007). Thou Shalt Always Kill. London: Lex Records.

seamus

later10 wrote: »

moreso that a guy might not want to be seen to take too much of an interest in other people's children.

Aside from the paedophile hysteria in society at the moment, there's also a cultural biase in how the sexes relate to children.

By and large, society assumes that all men have no interest in children who aren't their own blood, and women are naturally maternal and love children.

I am the stereotype in this regard; Up until 2 years ago, children made me uncomfortable. I had no idea how to relate to a child, and if I could at all get away with ignoring their existence, then that was the option I would take. I hadn't interacted with a child since I was one, so they just made me uncomfortable. Child staring at me in a restaurant? Look away and hope they get bored and piss off. Child sitting beside me on public transport, making noise and moving around? Cross my arms and pretend he doesn't exist.
Since I've had a nephew and niece come along, I would be more comfortable around children, though I'd still generally ignore the existence of children that I'm not related to, but I'd be more comfortable with them running around making noise.

This is IMO what society expects from men. So yourself as a man who is naturally comfortable around children and would have no problem interacting with other people's children would be considered outside the norm and naturally twig some kind of spidey-sense in people.
Women who aren't mad on children equally suffer some stigmatism in society; they're often considered to be selfish, cold women - how could they not like children - though obviously they don't suffer the suspicions of idiots re: paedophilia.

billybudd

With the history of this state it is not such a bad thing, you cannot undo abuse of a child, it will take a few decades before this mentality changes and it will take proper regulation and vetting to make areas of child occupation a healthy and less alarmist enviroment, until then better to be safe than sorry.

moco

I'm a girl and I'd have the same worries to be honest. A few months ago an ex colleagues husband came in to pick up a package from our office and he brought in his little girl who is about 3 or 4. He told me she needed the loo so I brought her. She got a fright from the hand drier and started crying while we were in there. I was a bit worried that I'd be accused of something for a few days after.

My friend went ice skating with her fiancé a while back. Her fiancé is a really good skater. He saw a little girl fall in front of him but he caught her before she hit the ground. Her mum turned round and went absolutely mental at him for 'touching' her child.

ejmaztec

The hysteria surrounding paedophilia makes me suspicious about everything to do with kids these days.

Some person on the Kerry forum asked whether anyone had used a particular photographer, and gave a website address (they could be plugging it for all I know). I went to the site to find that the studio specialises in children and family photos, and there are several innocuous looking photos of kids on the site.

Twenty years ago, I wouldn't have given it a second though, but now it's "kids, photos, internet, what's going on?:eek:"

hidinginthebush

Dan Le Sac wrote:

Thou shall not think that any man over 30 who plays with a child that is not their own is a paedophile... some people are just nice

I see where you're coming from though OP. If I had kids (which I don't), I'd have no problem with grownups talking to them about lego and whatnot. I usually make faces at babies in buggies if there's one in front of me in the supermarket or in a restaurant or whatever, and their parents have never had an issue with it. And if I pass the kids that live in my appartment block up to hijinks I'll usually make some off the cuff remark about football or whatever they're up to. Don't see the problem with it at all, there's nothing wrong with being nice.

Truley

I used to work in childcare and I remember having a conversation with some of my co-workers about the idea of men working in crèches. The girls I was talking to unanimously agreed that they wouldn't find it weird that a man would choose to work with children and that it's a positive thing, better for children etc etc. I was actually quite pleasantly surprised that they could be so open minded about it.

Next minute one of the girls piped up, 'unless it's a baby of course.' And then every other girl in the room agreed that it was okay for a man to work with children but not around babies. Why? I asked. Because it would involve changing nappies. Because it's just wrong. Because a man can't be trusted alone with an undressed child. Duh!

But people are happy to allow strange women in crèches to undress their child every day, no problem. I was gobsmaked

Snakeblood

Actually, I had a Batman poster because I bought Arkham City. So I offered it to some kids of the 10 to something age range, and they looked at me like I had my pants around my ankles (I hadn't). Sad times.

ejmaztec

It's ironic that many of the cases of abuse are perpetrated by family members, and not total strangers who just happen to be hanging around in kid-infested areas.

Ray Palmer

ejmaztec wrote: »

It's ironic that many of the cases of abuse are perpetrated by family members, and not total strangers who just happen to be hanging around in kid-infested areas.

Hysteria on the subject actually has massive real world consequences.

Children are driven to school now, it is more dangerous for a child to be in a car than walk. Children are gettting obese due to a lack of excercise. Massive amounts of fuel is wasted by the whole stop start nature of traffice congestion on top of which people are stopping and idling their cars as their children get in and out of the car. Oil is actually pretty important in food and pharmacudicals which children kind of need going forward.

Then you have the social issues of the removal of male figures in the school systems and other positions of authority that children deal with. I don't get the femal quota in the political system many TDs are teachers and there are now fewer and fewer males in the proffesion.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

CliffHuxtabel wrote: »

Speak for yourself

... so if a guy who has daily contact to your kids is accused of something, you're happy to let him continue? Wouldn't play on your mind?

If so, fair play - you're a stronger man than most...

monkeybutter

You'd have to wonder if there are any real men left. Have we all been debased to the extent that we can't think for ourselves? Or we all wusses like the OP and his brother?

Imagine, letting a 'strange' woman take your little girl rather than man up and do it yourself? I can't even imagine being as weak as this. It'd make me sick to my stomach.

tallaghtmick

I have a 2 year old and im only comfortable with him,at a kids party during the summer a friends 1 year old wanted me to lift her up to sit on my lap,I felt so awkward even though my friend says the child always does that.

rich.d.berry

I was walking my Jack Russell terrier about on the green in a neighbouring estate, just after Halloween. There was a group of children playing with no adult supervision. One of them called my dog over. My dog is very friendly and she started running around and playing with the kids, getting them caught up in the extendable lead as she ran around their feet, causing much hilarity and jumping about. I then recognised 2 of them as having knocked on my door on halloween night, so I started chatting to them. Next thing the mother starts screaming at them from her sitting room window to get away from me. I recognised the mother as well as having stood in the background while they were trick-or-treating, so I greeted her. She would have none of it. She told me to get away from her kids. Next thing three men walked out the front door and started going on at me from the driveway about "interfering" with little kids and how I should be ashamed of myself.

I realised then that sensible discussion was out of the question, so I ignored them and carried on walking my dog. About 10 minutes later a garda patrol car showed up. I assumed that they had been called about the earlier incident so I went straight over for a chat. I confirmed that I had had a run in with obnoxious people over perceived threats to their children, that there had been a brief conversation with the children, but no physical contact. They said that it was no problem, they regularly get calls from these people, especially when they've had a few drinks. They also said that they are required to investigate any complaints.

Obviously the whole affair was very unpleasant, especially since there were other people around when it occurred, and they seemed to be giving me funny looks after the accusations were made. Maybe just my imagination though, but being accused of being a kiddie fiddler was not my idea of a fun evening out.

hooradiation

monkeybutter wrote: »

You'd have to wonder if there are any real men left.

Hush up, child.

Warper

Very good thread.

I agree though, nowadays males cannot interact with children they dont know. There is too much fear about paedophilia. It is a truly sad situation and society is worse off because of it.

Feeona

rich.d.berry wrote: »

I was walking my Jack Russell terrier about on the green in a neighbouring estate, just after Halloween. There was a group of children playing with no adult supervision. One of them called my dog over. My dog is very friendly and she started running around and playing with the kids, getting them caught up in the extendable lead as she ran around their feet, causing much hilarity and jumping about. I then recognised 2 of them as having knocked on my door on halloween night, so I started chatting to them. Next thing the mother starts screaming at them from her sitting room window to get away from me. I recognised the mother as well as having stood in the background while they were trick-or-treating, so I greeted her. She would have none of it. She told me to get away from her kids. Next thing three men walked out the front door and started going on at me from the driveway about "interfering" with little kids and how I should be ashamed of myself.

I realised then that sensible discussion was out of the question, so I ignored them and carried on walking my dog. About 10 minutes later a garda patrol car showed up. I assumed that they had been called about the earlier incident so I went straight over for a chat. I confirmed that I had had a run in with obnoxious people over perceived threats to their children, that there had been a brief conversation with the children, but no physical contact. They said that it was no problem, they regularly get calls from these people, especially when they've had a few drinks. They also said that they are required to investigate any complaints.

Obviously the whole affair was very unpleasant, especially since there were other people around when it occurred, and they seemed to be giving me funny looks after the accusations were made. Maybe just my imagination though, but being accused of being a kiddie fiddler was not my idea of a fun evening out.

That's f*cking awful, excuse my language. One positive thing to take from that incident though is that the police don't engage with all this damaging paedophilia hype.

Sunnyisland

Warper wrote: »

Very good thread.

I agree though, nowadays males cannot interact with children they don't know. There is too much fear about paedophilia. It is a truly sad situation and society is worse off because of it.

But what is the answer ?

I remember in the 70,s people saying they are glad they live in Ireland and not England as its full of paedophiles etc etc it now seems like many other things we have imported this scaremongering here. Suspicion is everywhere.

pickarooney

Truley wrote: »

I used to work in childcare and I remember having a conversation with some of my co-workers about the idea of men working in crèches. The girls I was talking to unanimously agreed that they wouldn't find it weird that a man would choose to work with children and that it's a positive thing, better for children etc etc. I was actually quite pleasantly surprised that they could be so open minded about it.

Next minute one of the girls piped up, 'unless it's a baby of course.' And then every other girl in the room agreed that it was okay for a man to work with children but not around babies. Why? I asked. Because it would involve changing nappies. Because it's just wrong. Because a man can't be trusted alone with an undressed child. Duh!

But people are happy to allow strange women in crèches to undress their child every day, no problem. I was gobsmaked

Jesus Christ... I'd be far more worried about having idiots like this look after my kids than the possibility of a paedophile working in a creche.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

monkeybutter wrote: »

You'd have to wonder if there are any real men left. .

Probably on the sex offenders register.

seamus

Feeona wrote: »

One positive thing to take from that incident though is that the police don't engage with all this damaging paedophilia hype.

The Gardai have the misfortune of dealing with so much child neglect from both genders/parents, that I guess luckily for the rest of us they are far more realistic and less hysterical when it comes to reports about children in danger.

Prowling child predators are extraordinarily rare, the Gardai know this and so would most likely be suspicious of any report that "me neighbour was fiddlin with me kids".

TinfoilTinman

Having had a lot of younger cousins growing up i've always got on very well with kids. Even now, i'm an uncle and i've done a good amount of babysitting. I can deal with the constant cleaning, tantrums and the horror of bedtime but i've never taken care of a child I haven't been related to for longer than 10 minutes.

Currently, i'm a student with no source of income and little chance of a job ; I can juggle, do a little magic, cook and read Gruffalo like a boss with sound effects -- voices for EVERY character.

Who would hire me? I know women who are terrible with children and yet make money babysitting, I am merely male.