Judging course

Barry.Oglesby

Would the major referees be interested in putting on a judging course? I would like to offer my gym for the venue and any support needed to run it as I think this is something that needs to be done for 2012.

In the last year I've judged at a fair few shows and what always strikes me is the disparity between individual judge's decisions sometimes. I think by and large, judges get it right but in the last 6 months I've seen more majority draws, split draws, split decisions and majority decisions than I think there's been in the preceding 10 years!

Another thing that needs to be dealt with is judge's behaviour at shows. When I judge I take the matter very seriously and I know others do likewise, but I've seen judges talking to the crowd during rounds, drinking, or openly discussing their scoring on facebook, boards, in the crowd afterwards. I don't think anyone does this out of malice or out of disrespect, I just think there's a tendency to treat the job lightly.

I'm also sure it would be very helpful to coaches to know what a judge is looking for.

David Jones

Peter and I have been discussing this recently and I am sure something could be organised. Since the beginning of this year at every show, I have made myself available to judges in case they have any questions. I guess a lot of people especially fighters or coaches are sometimes reluctant to ask in case they appear stupid. I work off there are no stupid questions only stupid people, so you are better off asking.

I agree with Barry in that their have been a lot more draws, splits etc but obviously there are more shows than before and also the standard of fight across the board has definitely risen so things are often a little less one sided than they used to be. I do genuinely believe that all prospective judges need a reminder of what they are looking for and in what order in a fight. Then clearing up things like drawn rounds, points deductions etc and basically explaining the finer points of the 10 point "Must" system.

Perhaps a course is the way to go.

fightireland

In the last couple of months I have received two mails to the site inquiring if they exist?
So I guess the demand is there...

garrybergin

Great idea guys and to be honest it's a long time coming !!! Could a course with a recognised qualification be proposed ??

Barry.Oglesby

garrybergin wrote: »

Great idea guys and to be honest it's a long time coming !!! Could a course with a recognised qualification be proposed ??

Without a governing body, any piece of paper would be just another piece of paper.

garrybergin

Without a governing body in Ireland - a piece of paper is only a piece of paper , but with governing bodies in the US, a course completed by one of their instructors is then a piece of paper with credibility - if your going to do something, do it right the first time !!! In my opinion ;)

David Jones

Have to agree with Barry. If something like this goes ahead its for interested individuals with a genuine passion to further the sport in this country. You won't be certified by me or Peter, we aren't into that. Much like the refereeing, there is no course you can take officially, it's what driving instruction used to be, anyone can run a course give out certs but practical knowledgeable application of the criteria is what is needed. I am happy to provide people with information but not to certify them under the David jones school of judging or whatever. Pieces of paper mean jack.

There are people running courses with less refereeing experience than either myself or Peter, I dont care if their connections got them to the UFC. Just because something is run in the states doesnt make it good. Chances are its someone making a buck, or £65 per person in some cases.:eek:

Barry.Oglesby

I don't know what other people think but this is what I'm proposing:

One afternoon where Dave/Peter/Dec bring coaches or those who judge on shows regularly together and show what is required of a judge in terms of how to correctly score a bout, what constitutes a successful technique, how to weight various techniques, and how to generally conduct yourself as a judge.

I personally don't want to be a certified referee or judge, and I don't think the state commissions in the USA are anywhere to be looking for guidance.

garrybergin

I agree with you totally Dave, in particular that experience trumps qualifications anyday - but it also has to be said that NOBODY was born with a referee or judges shirt on their back and that all officials have to gain experience and do from time to time make mistakes because nobody is perfect... That's why I asked for that experience as a referee and want to thank Andy Ryan, Barry Oglesby, Paul Cowzer and Wayne Fagan for giving me the opportunity to gain that experience judging the junior, D and some C class bouts on their shows..... everybody has to start somewhere!

Between yourself and Peter you have both refereed close to 1000 bouts each, maybe mor, and that experience can't be quantified by a piece of paper, but courses do exist like John Mc Carthy's C.O.M.M.A.N.D course and I think everyone will agree that he is the most experienced MMA referee in the world.

Just my 2 cents !!

Marc Goddard

David Jones wrote: »

There are people running courses with less refereeing experience than either myself or Peter, I dont care if their connections got them to the UFC. Just because something is run in the states doesnt make it good. Chances are its someone making a buck, or £65 per person in some cases.:eek:

David Jones - not for the first time I have came across your name, I have had people message me directly forwarding me to this board and in particular your comments and messages which I now feel compelled to even register and correct you.

Do you even know who I am? what I have have done? my experience? anything about me? other than what you only clearly presume. I do not know you, or anything about you and quite clearly you know nothing about me. I have however been informed about you previously and some of your ill informed comments with regard to me on this very board and I have, until now, chosen to ignore but I certainly cannot any longer.

I will address your 1st comment about "less refereeing experience" so my 1st question to you is - You tell me, what is my experience? Well I had noticed another board member summise that you may have reffed close to 1000 bouts? [true or not I do not know nor wish too] Well I gave up counting after 4 to 5000. I have refereed throughout the UK, Ireland, Germany, USA, Brazil, Jordan, Abu Dhabi, Australia to name but a few. With regard to the sport of MMA itself a quick 5 minute chat with anyone of any standing within the UK would let you know that I have been involved within form its early conception. I have trained all my life, competed in MMA, extensive grappling resume, trained, coached and cornered, promoted fighters and amateurs. I think its safe so say, that without entering into a dick measuring contest, my experience with any and all elated facets of MMA is what one would call "extensive"

Secondly I will address your comment of "I dont care if their connections got them to the UFC" this I find most insulting and your arrogance and ignorance shines through in abundance. Let me tell you something that you quite clearly don't know or will ever understand, nobody "finds the UFC" the "UFC finds you" and any and all of its employees or workers are selected for a reason. They do their homework, they ask questions and when the same name is mentioned over and over then they would be compelled to act. I am entering into my 5th year with the UFC. I was actually due to start working with them far earlier but thats another story. I am filled with immense pride everytime I step into that Octogan because it is a realisation of all my hard work, determination and effort being rewarded in not being a bit part palyer or someone who only comes to life whenever they are in town - that is why I am selected and travel over the World with them, something that is held in the highest regard, gratitude and honour.

Thirdly I would like to address your comment of "Chances are its someone making a buck, or £65 per person in some cases" again another completely thoughtless and ignorant statement. Anyone who knows me knows that nothing with regard to MMA is for me to "make a buck" I pick and choose very carefully who I work with, you see my reputation and experience allows me to do this and please believe me I turn down far more work than I accept - my heart is firmly in the right place and my integrity and dignity are everything when it comes to MMA I have walked from shows and many "lucrative opportunites" so please think carefuly when choosing your words. My Referee & Judges Seminar is actually £50 per person not £65 - the gentleman who was advertising it as £65 was doing so to cover the cost of room hire, equipment etc. My seminars are held in very high regard - many testimonials and reviews can be found. My seminars are constructed as a full days exposure and training covering both Referee's Judges, Unified Rules, Scoring Criteria and its apllication and the correct use of the 10 point must. This accompanied with a printed book wrote by me, on a course devised constructed and delivered by me and people are paying for "me" - the previous paragraphs may help you to understand why. The "Certification" is for attendance, a keep sake, a memento for people to show that they have attended and wanted to learn form my experience - thats why when I ran my first seminar it was attended by pretty much all of the other already experienced and established Referee's also - a very humbling and gratifying mark of respect for me. It is not a "Certificate" of look at me I am now a qualified Referee/Judge as there cannot be such a thing and this covered and explained with those on my course. I have had several enquiries from some very good people in Ireland about running my seminars there too, infact that is what led to me being informed about you in the first place again seeing your ignorant comments about me in previous and similair threads. My seminar series also goes international next year taking in Sweeden, Belgium, Singapore...oh and hopefully Ireland too

So there you have it David I am sure that you now know a hell of alot more about me. Manners cost nothing and nor does common decency either. It is very easy to do a little research and find out about your chosen subject that you wish to berate - you can then get your facts straight before running the risk of being corrected openly. I have travelled the World over with MMA and devoted a very significant part of my life toward it, now taking in the responsibility of developing and raising standards with things such as my seminars. I am asked on an almost daily basis to help, set up, comment, or develop any and all things MMA related as a sign of my experience and people recognising that as such - again a very humbling gesture for me and one that I take great pride and responsibility in. As I said I do not know you or been inloved with you in the past so quite why you have this attitude toward me I simply do not know. If my seminar does come to Ireland I think I can safely count upon your non attendance as you seem to know it all already - if upon reflection you decide that you wish to then I look forward to your attendance where I would be pleased to help you learn further.

Regards.

00benski

Hey Marc love your q and a in fighters only magazine does be awesome man

p to the e

Would this be something to refresh judges scoring skills or to entice new people who would have an interest in judging?

Barry.Oglesby

I'd like it to be open BUT I think it should be limited to pros, ex pros, and coaches for the moment. Having no frame of reference would only slow the day down.

David Jones

Marc Goddard, I made no reference to you at all in any post above? But thanks for the brief bio and explanation that your course provides keepsakes and mementos for those who attend.

Many thanks for the personal nature of your post. You sound like a really nice guy, unlike myself, who clearly has no manners or common decency,

cheers :rolleyes:

garrybergin

Again have to agree with Dave here, at no point in Dave's posts did he mention you Marc ! :eek:
I like the idea of your refereeing/ judges course Marc but have to say that your post was a tad out of line and a bit personal :mad:....... After all manners cost nothing ! From what I know of Dave and I know him quite a few years now he only has the benefit of the sport in the forefront of his mind and is a sound guy ! But at the shows he needs to get his own bottles of water and stop robbing mine !!!:P:P

weemate

Hi Marc,
unlike the other guys on the board,I do know you and have contacted you in the past with no reply I may add.I can clarify that you do have an extensive grappling background as we both came from the same place under Ross.you have in fact competed at one of the tournaments I put on in belfast a few years back and were invited for a drink with myself,shaky and Dave Coles after the event.
I can also testify that Dave is one of the most experienced refs in the country and is asked for his advice on a regular basis regarding shows etc.I doubt that he has any grief with you personally and if anyone has contacted you saying that he has I would say they may be stirring the pot just a bit.
Myself and Dave have been asked to run a judges event and maybe help to get some new refs on board.This is in no way taking anything away from your seminars, as you say...attending one will not make you a ref.....but it might help to set a standard for Irish mma events.
Best regards
Peter Lavery

Marc Goddard

garrybergin wrote: »

Again have to agree with Dave here, at no point in Dave's posts did he mention you Marc ! :eek:
I like the idea of your refereeing/ judges course Marc but have to say that your post was a tad out of line and a bit personal :mad:....... After all manners cost nothing ! From what I know of Dave and I know him quite a few years now he only has the benefit of the sport in the forefront of his mind and is a sound guy ! But at the shows he needs to get his own bottles of water and stop robbing mine !!!:P:P

Garry - if David wishes to hang his hat on the fact that he did not mention me by name "directly" then that says even more about him in my eyes. That is very weak! Have the courage to stand by your convictions as the saying goes, I certainly do. I have to disagree my post was not out of line at all. I am not abusive or misleading and yes you are correct the post was entirely personal so to speak as it was addressing David directly and his comments toward me.

At no point do I or have I questions David's intentions toward the sport in Ireland as I say I do not and have not known him so doing so would be unfair. I registered on the board to address David's points and previous "comments" and also to let him know a little more about the very person he was addressing.

My time and visits in Ireland MMA wise have always been very positive and I have always enjoyed my time there. I certainly do not wish to enter into wars or words with anyone here. Good luck to all concerned in future endeavours.

Thanks.

Marc Goddard

Peter - hi yes i do know you and remember. I hope that you are well. I am not entirely sure if you were one of the ones I did talk to regards coming to Ireland for the seminar but you say you had no reply? I'm not sure how or where you may have contacted me but if I did not respond it was certainly not intentional as I say I do get requests on an almost daily basis and if I do forget then my apologies.

On a previous thread on this board it was mentioned that someone was looking to have me conduct a seminar in Ireland and in that very thread the negative and completely unwarranted comments were made - I did not respond at the time and just passed it off as I wondered why the comments were made but I can half understand if already established refs in a particular place may feel a little uneasy at someone else coming in to "show them how it's done" so to speak but that is not and never is my intention - as detailed when I done my first seminar in the UK nearly all experienced well known officials attended which was very humbling we all want the same thing and that is to raise standards right?

Any how maybe some other time, as I say hope you are well and best of luck for MMA endeavours. Thanks.

weemate

Hi Marc,
I had contacted you regarding a few things through the cage warriors forum a long time ago,probably about one of the shows you were involved with at the time....in truth it was so long ago I cant recall the details.
You are correct that we do have a common goal of making the sport safer and more acceptable to the general public and we should make that a priority.
Hope all is good with you and maybe we can all get together in the future
Peter

David Jones

Have the courage to stand by your convictions as the saying goes,

My only conviction Marc is that people should not be making money out of running courses that "imply" certification when in reality they are nothing more than a means of making extra money, rather like book or photo signings for fighters. Why not be up front and honest about it?

Even quoting from the command website

It needs to be clearly understood that passing the course does not entitle you to a license from any state athletic commission or any guarantee of work as a MMA referee or judge.

So the most experienced guy in the business ie John McCarthy is from his own website admitting to running a course that the certificate is pretty much not worth the paper its written on?

That is the point I was trying to make about cert courses.

The reason I didn't google you Marc is that frankly I am not that interested in you and if that makes me a weak person, then I am willing to live with that.

I am sure that whoever keeps as an important a person as you quite clearly are, informed of events in Ireland, is rubbing their hands together. If you can find the time to return to the thread you go right ahead, I won't be doing so.

Back on topic.

Barry you can let me know when you would like to run a free information morning/afternoon/day for people (with the relevant background/experience) who are interested in judging and hopefully contributing to the improvement of the overall standard in Ireland. I will bring some pens along and participants will be allowed to keep them.

garrybergin

I'd be more than happy to attend this ! And get one of Dave's free pens

Marc Goddard

David - so your issue is with the fact that I charged for my seminar? I mean how dare I, spend hrs upon hours compiling the journal then spend 6hrs on the day passing on my knowledge that I have gathered from my years of experience. I certainly don't understand your logic and it is quite clear from your posts you have no interest in addressing your comments directed toward me, instead you end in a sarcastic quip. Do you feel the same way toward John McArthy and Herb Dean when they charge for their time and experience at their seminars? is wrong that they also imply certification?

Why would you need to google me? And for someone who has no interest in me you certainly know enough about my seminars etc. You seem to have issues with understanding what is written in front of you David as I did not say you are weak for not knowing me inside and out and my resume - I said that you were weak as you hung you hat on the "weak" option saying that you did not even mention my name.

I am no more important than you or any other person.

cowzerp

Hi Marc
Dave is 1 of, if not the best ref in Ireland, his only interest is improving the reffing and judges standard along with safety of fighters-his point is simply that he is willing to do this for non monetary gain and that's no bad thing

Dave, Peter- Me and Andy where just talking the other day about getting a group together to improve judging standards, I think it's a great idea and the fact money is not the aim makes it more genuine, that's not aimed at you Marc as your entitled to charge for your experience just as people are to take you up on the courses.

Ps. There is nothing to say the same people who get together would not do your course in the Future as experience comes from never thinking you know it all.