Hot tap kills child

The Chartered Institute of Plumbing & Heating Engineering (CIPHE) is urging plumbing and heating professionals to help educate consumers about the dangers of hot water.
This follows the inquest into the accidental death of an 18-month-old who suffered burns after climbing into a hot bath.
The tragedy occurred in 2007 after the toddler was left briefly unattended next to a bath that was filling up. She suffered 30% burns and died in hospital several days later from septic shock.
Danny Davis, principal technical officer at the CIPHE, said the Institute is determined to help prevent similar accidents by encouraging members to raise awareness among their customers about controlling water temperature.
"It's a tragic story but sadly there have been other similar cases, particularly involving disabled people and children who need extra care when bathing. Plumbing and heating professionals who work in households with elderly or disabled people, or children, should tell the main care-giver about safe bathing temperatures and how a thermostatic mixing valve (TMV) can help.
"TMVs can limit the water temperature to the desired temperature so there's no need for a separate thermometer and no need to worry," he said.
"By educating the public and encouraging the use of TMVs we can help guard against future tragedies."
Since 2010 there has been a legal requirement in England and Wales (and in Scotland since 2006) to limit bathing outlet temperatures in new dwellings to 48ºc. The British Burns Association recommends lower bathing temperatures for children should be 37 to 37.5ºc.

A very sad story and the reason I posted it is to make people aware of the risks in not having control over the temperature of the hot water at the tap, anybody with limited controls should check their hot water temperature, especially as many hot water cylinders are not thermostatically controlled and people are firing up stoves and turning up boiler thermostats.

soterpisc

Ok.. But far more children die from Cold water than from Hot Water. Toddlers should never be let near any water without a parent present.

soterpisc

soterpisc wrote: »

Ok.. But far more children die from Cold water than from Hot Water. Toddlers should never be let near any water without a parent present.

It's not a competition it's a attempt at raising awareness over something as simple as hot water which can effect young and old, if you feel it's not necessary then that's fine.

I visit a lot of heating and hot water installations so my paranoia is based on first hand knowledge, I'm amazed to find how many people run their hot water at a silly temperatures not realising the connection with the temperature of their hot water and turning up their boiler thermostat due to the colder weather, also i'v been in more than one nursery that have used small unvented hot water heaters that have no temperature control between the heater and the children washing their hands which has been passed by local inspectors.

RedXIV

Jesus....I've an kid about the same age and if she saw a bath half full, she'd try to climb in too. Not quite big enough to do it yet but its still a scary story

MarkR

Something I am always very careful about. My son would jump in no hassle!

Stove Fan

I would of thought all Schools, Hospitals, and Nursing homes or any building the public uses. Churches, Community halls etc, would be fitted with a TRV by law. I certainly would think they should be if not.

A very sad case indeed.

You should see the temperature of hot water out of the water heaters in France:eek: A mains chauffe eau. Almost boiling:eek:. The hot water comes out the taps immediately scalding as the water pressure is around 3 bar or higher. Quite normal to have 8 bar from the mains, hence a adjustable pressure reducing valve. It's shocking as some of these are hoiliday lets and no warnings given. The worst let was one with a shower bar that stuck out that could easily have been knocked to fully hot:rolleyes:. I like the bar with the temperature control at the end so no chance of knocking into it.

Stove Fan:)

Outkast_IRE

Stove Fan wrote: »

I would of thought all Schools, Hospitals, and Nursing homes or any building the public uses. Churches, Community halls etc, would be fitted with a TRV by law. I certainly would think they should be if not.

A very sad case indeed.

You should see the temperature of hot water out of the water heaters in France:eek: A mains chauffe eau. Almost boiling:eek:. The hot water comes out the taps immediately scalding as the pressure is around 3 bar or higher. It's shocking as some of these are hoiliday lets and no warnings given. The worst let was one with a shower bar that stuck out that could easily have been knocked to fully hot:rolleyes:. I like the bar with the temperature control at the end so no chance of knocking into it.

Stove Fan:)

Well any new building work i was involved on in government owned buildings, if there was any children, elderly or disabled using the room thermostatic was fitted , that was the spec , but they arent going round replacing older facilites with this.

gary71

gary71 wrote: »

...control over the temperature of the hot water at the tap...

How much would it cost to do this?

Outkast_IRE

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Well any new building work i was involved on in government owned buildings, if there was any children, elderly or disabled using the room thermostatic was fitted , that was the spec , but they arent going round replacing older facilites with this.

The regs are only as good as the person enforcing them.


I was in a newish nursery two weeks ago, 30 litre under sinks fitted in each classroom and each toilet, the ones in the toilet were fitted in a place the kids could sit on them, all pipework was plastic, no pressure reducing valve fitted, no 6 bar fitted and the heaters comes with a warning this heater can heat water up to 84c when turned to max:mad:

slavetothegrind

HSE are retrofitting control valves i know, hiqa are insisting on it in all facilities they inspect.

Very valid warning i think

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

How much would it cost to do this?

In most houses it's a matter of setting the cylinder stat to a reasonable setting and if one isn't fitted then fit some kind of temperature control, cytrol Valve, Tap stat or zone valve, some of the best installations have had the children's bathroom/toilet fitted with a mixer valve to thermostatically control the temperature at their taps, as for cost it dependent on the work required and I'll let a plumber answer that:)

DGOBS

Not only hot water, radiators can and have killed too, kid have got trapped between furniture and rads and have been horribly burner, in old folks homes there has been incidents where patients had beds against rad and again became trapped between the two, what a horrible way to go.

I always advise customers with small kids to reduce radiator temperature

DGOBS

DGOBS wrote: »

Not only hot water, radiators can and have killed too, kid have got trapped between furniture and rads and have been horribly burner, in old folks homes there has been incidents where patients had beds against rad and again became trapped between the two, what a horrible way to go.

I always advise customers with small kids to reduce radiator temperature

My dad got drunk and fell a sleep against a rad, I was shocked at the damage a rad can do, the burn was brutal:eek:

gary71

gary71 wrote: »

In most houses it's a matter of setting the cylinder stat to a reasonable setting and if one isn't fitted then fit some kind of temperature control, cytrol Valve, Tap stat or zone valve, some of the best installations have had the children's bathroom/toilet fitted with a mixer valve to thermostatically control the temperature at their taps, as for cost it dependent on the work required and I'll let a plumber answer that:)

I've been advised more than once that the reasonable temperature setting for a hot water cylinder is between 60 and 62 degrees - any lower and you're opening the door to legionella, anything higher and you're wasting energy.

After that I see a list that might bring more satisfaction to a plumber than to a customer, to be perfectly honest. Tap thermostat? Zone valve? Changing taps to have a mixer with a thermostat? Nice work if you can get it, but of questionable value to the average punter, IMO.

Stove Fan

gary71 wrote: »

My dad got drunk and fell a sleep against a rad, I was shocked at the damage a rad can do, the burn was brutal:eek:

I have heard of a toddler being killed too with a rad right next to her bed.

Low surface temp rads should be installed in care homes or have a radiator cabinet installed.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I've been advised more than once that the reasonable temperature setting for a hot water cylinder is between 60 and 62 degrees - any lower and you're opening the door to legionella, anything higher and you're wasting energy.

After that I see a list that might bring more satisfaction to a plumber than to a customer, to be perfectly honest. Tap thermostat? Zone valve? Changing taps to have a mixer with a thermostat? Nice work if you can get it, but of questionable value to the average punter, IMO.

I'd be happy if controls were fitted, setting a cylinder stat in the manor you describe would be the minimum control on stored hot water, only the mixing valve would be extra, the other things I mentioned would be to give you similar control to your cylinderstat.

The things that get my paranoia twitching is having no temperature control on the stored hot water temperature and the heat from a boiler 82c+ flowing unchecked In to the cylinder

gary71

gary71 wrote: »

The things that get my paranoia twitching is having no temperature control on the stored hot water temperature and the heat from a boiler 82c+ flowing unchecked In to the cylinder

Spending money to fix that makes sense from a financial and "green" point of view, but it's disproportionate from a safety perspective.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Spending money to fix that makes sense from a financial and "green" point of view, but it's disproportionate from a safety perspective.

I'm not asking anyone to spend money, i'm trying to make people aware so they can make their own minds up, sometimes turning down the cylinder thermostat is enough and that costs nothing, what people do with the info is up to them.

DGOBS

So the low cost of thermostatic control on showers,bath and sinks are unjustified, if your child was badly burned would you still have te same point of view?

All me showers here have thermostatic control, and with my young kids having showers it was money well spent. How many kids fall down stairs, yet we fit stair guards, how many drink detergents, yet manufacturers fit kid proof caps.......and the list goes on.

No price can be put on the life of a child (or adult for that matter)

DGOBS

DGOBS wrote: »

So the low cost of thermostatic control on showers,bath and sinks are unjustified, if your child was badly burned would you still have te same point of view?

No. I'd query why the much cheaper prevention methods I'd employed hadn't worked, like they worked for me, and for my parents before me, and for loads and loads of other people.

DGOBS wrote: »

All me showers here have thermostatic control, and with my young kids having showers it was money well spent. How many kids fall down stairs, yet we fit stair guards, how many drink detergents, yet manufacturers fit kid proof caps.......and the list goes on.

More children fall down stairs than are killed or injured because of the lack of thermostats on taps, and far more children were poisoned before kid proof caps were fitted.....and the list goes on.

DGOBS wrote: »

No price can be put on the life of a child (or adult for that matter)

There's more than one or two businesses out there built on the notion that there's a lot of money to be made out of the basic inability of people to assess risk, and with that comment you've rather proved why they are successful.

The premise of this thread - or more accurately, the premise of the UK plumbers representative association - is that we should all go out and spend money to fix a problem.

A problem that caused one death.

Nearly five years ago.

That's one death, from among the over 10 million children under 10 who lived in the UK at the time and since.

Like I said, nice work if you can get it, but it's a big spend to confer no real advantage on the average punter.

DGOBS

Wow! Your right, I won't strive to protect my children, I'll hope for the best.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

No. I'd query why the much cheaper prevention methods I'd employed hadn't worked, like they worked for me, and for my parents before me, and for loads and loads of other people.

.

I only want people to check their hot water, its not for my financial benefit and I'm not trying to take over the world.

You're happy its a message you don't need to hear, great, I'm happy for you but there are installation that don't have basic controls on their hot water cylinder making the temperture of the hot water brutal, unvented cylinders are being fitted without basic controls being fitted and some people just don't understand their heating controls.

Ulysses1874 how would you go about improving awareness for people who aren't as switched on as you and need a bit of advise? as for it only being one child that died, no one should die because the hot water is too hot not in this day and age.

DGOBS

DGOBS wrote: »

Wow! Your right, I won't strive to protect my children, I'll hope for the best.

If you want to hope for the best that's entirely a matter for you. Alternatively, if you want to make yourself another victim of the consumer culture that assumes we should buy a solution to every problem, that's also a matter for you.

I didn't do either. Why not re-read my post? It might not do you any good, but it sure can't do any harm.

creedp

Deleted User wrote: »

If you want to hope for the best that's entirely a matter for you. Alternatively, if you want to make yourself another victim of the consumer culture that assumes we should buy a solution to every problem, that's also a matter for you.

I didn't do either. Why not re-read my post? It might not do you any good, but it sure can't do any harm.

I was a victim of the consumer culture when I was persuaded to install a Heat Pump .. spent a shed load of extra cash on it .. one adavntage though you don't have roasting radiators as floor never goes about 30 -35c and the DHW is set for 45c and boosted intermediatelywith the immersion to 60c. So in this case I was burned once (pardon the pun) by the consumer culture but should be protected from this particular consumer problem.

Consumer culture? What are you on about if your water is too hot turn it down, talk about getting the wrong end of the stick. Would it amaze ye to know that I meet a lot of people who don't know how their heating works so I'll show them and in that I'll show them how to control their hot water, when I found out that loose cords on blinds can kill a child, I didn't think "I won't do anything as more children fall over carpets", I didn't think "those cheeky sods just want to sell me curtains", what I did was to move my daughters cot away from the blinds, consumer culture

Joey the lips

Folks. Is this an arguement or debate.

When i grew up i had no heating. I had a hot water back boiler. My father burned slack so the water was that hot it came out over the expansion pipe sometimes.

The rule of thumb was simple......


Cold water first....

Hot water second....

What in the name of heaven can be any simpler....Its still thought in hospitals...

DoneDL

Joey the lips wrote: »

Folks. Is this an arguement or debate.

When i grew up i had no heating. I had a hot water back boiler. My father burned slack so the water was that hot it came out over the expansion pipe sometimes.

The rule of thumb was simple......


Cold water first....

Hot water second....

What in the name of heaven can be any simpler....Its still thought in hospitals...

Strangely enough the first regulations were published as guidelines for the NHS estate and then adopted by H&S in the UK. Then public places and landlords came into focus as being responsible for the safe temperatures of water for use. I would only be concerned if there were no controls on unvented cylinders or similar as water temperature under pressure is higher than open vented temperatures. That said the last course I did on water control temperatures would make you consider safe operation temperatures, apparently children and old folk because of their reaction time.

This is about awareness, not everybody has the same skill set when it comes to safety, i'v seen to much silliness to assume that everyone will turn on cold before hot and i'v visited a lot of homes where they were happy to have the cylinder stat turned down because the cylinder the water was uncomfortably hot, awareness is about giving people the information to choose what they want and if their happy great and if they want to make a adjustment that's good to.

It would be silly to say everybody needs to be told about their hot water temp, but some do.

Published:  December 2011
Following the death of a man from burns received from a scalding hot bath, Midland Heart, a housing association, has been fined £100 000 and ordered to pay £35 000 costs. Following the hearing in Birmingham Magistrates Court, the Heating & Ventilating Contractors’ Association has warned of the dangers of relying on high temperatures to combat the risk of legionella.

The association pleaded guilty to breaching the Health & Safety at Work Act. Birmingham Council started proceedings relating to two separate scalding incidents in hostels run by the association. The council argued that Heart had failed to ensure that the water outlet temperature was properly controlled to avoid scalding.

Every year, about 20 people die as a result of scalds caused by hot bath water, and about 600 people suffer serious scald injuries.

Blane Judd, chief executive of HVCA, comments, ‘One of the reasons cited for high water temperature is the need to control legionella bacteria, and we are aware that building operators, particularly in the healthcare sector, have argued that water temperatures have been increased purely to combat the risk of legionella.

‘However, an increase in the risk of scalding cannot be justified as a consequence of introducing precautions against legionella. Water should be delivered to a bath or shower outlet at no more than 46°C and prevented from being discharged at greater than 46°C from taps which may be accessible to children, older and more vulnerable people.’

He continues, ‘We, along with other industry bodies, support the installation of mixing controls (TMVs) and the ongoing maintenance and updating of existing hot-water systems to ensure they are fitted with TMVs.’

http://www.modern-building-services.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/8613/__65279;Safe_and_sanitary_.html

Joey the lips

Joey the lips wrote: »

Cold water first....

Hot water second....

....and cheap at the price. Everyone I know does this, because we all grew up having it drummed into us by parents who didn't have the money to buy a load of gizmos, and who therefore did some thinking and took some responsibility.

PeteHeat

Deleted User wrote: »

....and cheap at the price. Everyone I know does this, because we all grew up having it drummed into us by parents who didn't have the money to buy a load of gizmos, and who therefore did some thinking and took some responsibility.

When you actually hear the screams of a child scalded and see the resulting scars which last a lifetime maybe you will be a little more open minded to modern technology?

We are using mixtures of old and new technologies to heat our homes and water, cylinders with three coils are not unusual (main boiler, solar, stove / back boiler) when the consumer spends all that money they want the hot water at every tap, very few (if any) need it at 60c.

What could be so wrong with offering the consumer the safety of a mixing valve to make their hot water system safe for all of the family even the members who are not yet born?

Considering the cost of any of the heating systems mentioned a mixing valve will hardly break the bank if installed at the same time, it could help the very busy parents who themselves are children of our modern Ireland with modern plumbing systems who don't have the time to teach their children every detail of home safety.

I believe in todays "Consumer Culture" the least the consumer deserves is the right to be informed about possible dangers from modern systems in their homes.

Thanks gary71.

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