Mr Noonan, are you listening?

Nixer Jim

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1202/breaking17.html

The Tyre Dude

Scrappage was always going to distort sales figures, it was never an indefinite subsidy. If people can't or won't buy new cars there is only so much Govt can do. The motor trade, just like everyone else, is just going to have to suck it up.

pajo1981

I think Irish people would be better served by not dropping tens of thousands on imported cars, right now.

CiniO

pajo1981 wrote: »

I think Irish people would be better served by not dropping tens of thousands on imported cars, right now.

I think the same.
Instead of spending huge amount on new cars which are produces abroad, it's better to buy second hand car and spend remaining money locally.

166man

CiniO wrote: »

I think the same.
Instead of spending huge amount on new cars which are produces abroad, it's better to buy second hand car and spend remaining money locally.

Yes but when you look at the price of a car without VRT and VAT its usually far less than the selling price and as such VRT and VAT is all revenue going to the Government from each new car sale which is surely of greater benefit to them than have people buying used cars with no direct revenue to the Government?

CiniO

CiniO wrote: »

I think the same.
Instead of spending huge amount on new cars which are produces abroad, it's better to buy second hand car and spend remaining money locally.

166man wrote: »

Yes but when you look at the price of a car without VRT and VAT its usually far less than the selling price and as such VRT and VAT is all revenue going to the Government from each new car sale which is surely of greater benefit to them than have people buying used cars with no direct revenue to the Government?

You've completely ignored the 2nd point Cinio made.
Instead of spending €300/month on car finance the Irish economy would benefit more by people spending that on taxis, in pubs, restaurants and clothes bought in local stores etc.

Anan1

166man wrote: »

Yes but when you look at the price of a car without VRT and VAT its usually far less than the selling price and as such VRT and VAT is all revenue going to the Government from each new car sale which is surely of greater benefit to them than have people buying used cars with no direct revenue to the Government?

If people spent money on maintaining their existing cars then almost all of that money would stay here. I happen to value European jobs just as highly as Irish ones, but our culture of buying a new car, abusing it until it dies, and then buying another is just plain wasteful. If I were going to subsidise any part of the Irish motor trade it'd be service rather than sales.

166man

RoverJames wrote: »

You've completely ignored the 2nd point Cinio made.
Instead of spending €300/month on car finance the Irish economy would benefit more by people spending that on taxis, in pubs, restaurants and clothes bought in local stores etc.

I didn't ignore the second point though because when Cinio spoke of spending money locally I spoke about buying used cars in Ireland. Including VAT and VRT doesn't that add up to about 40% of the cars purchase price going to the Government and in turn back into the economy? As for your comment about buying clothes in local stores, that isn't really reality though is it? The reality is people buying in somewhere like pennys for example and all that money going abroad?

Also Anan1 if people did maintain their cars properly and paid Irish mechanics and bought Irish made spare parts well then no complaints really but again that's not reality either. What about the mechanics who are from foreign countries who bring their paychecks out of Ireland? Also not forgetting that most of the spare parts are imported into Ireland i.e money leaving the country on a monthly basis.

166man

166man wrote: »

I didn't ignore the second point though because when Cinio spoke of spending money locally I spoke about buying used cars in Ireland. Including VAT and VRT doesn't that add up to about 40% of the cars purchase price going to the Government and in turn back into the economy? .................

Money direct to the government goes to public services and debt servicing. Money spent in the local economy also will get to the government but on the way there it keeps local business in business.

Spending €20,000 in the local economy over 5 years would be more beneficial (to the local economy) than spending €20,000 down the local Hyundai garage.

Anan1

166man wrote: »

Also Anan1 if people did maintain their cars properly and paid Irish mechanics and bought Irish made spare parts well then no complaints really but again that's not reality either. What about the mechanics who are from foreign countries who bring their paychecks out of Ireland?

Any mechanic working here has to live here too, I can't imagine we're losing too much there.

166man wrote: »

Also not forgetting that most of the spare parts are imported into Ireland i.e money leaving the country on a monthly basis.

It's still a hell of a lot cheaper to maintain a car than to replace it.

166man

166man wrote: »

........ What about the mechanics who are from foreign countries who bring their paychecks out of Ireland? ..............

They pay PAYE, PRSI, rent, use petrol, eat, have a mobile phone etc etc etc. If you live and work in Ireland you spend a bit here too.

Chimaera

And on top of all that, we have too many cars here as it is. Everywhere you go there are tales of dealers having warehouses full of unsold secondhand cars because the world and his mother were trading up every 2 years during the boom.

People don't have the money to spend and can't get the finance for new cars, so lets get all the unsold used ones back in circulation first.

The only big issue that might crop up is that there will be a lack of good used stock in the coming years, but given how easy/cheap it is to get cars in from the UK, I'm not sure this will be a big deal.

166man

RoverJames wrote: »

Money direct to the government goes to public services and debt servicing. Money spent in the local economy also will get to the government but on the way there it keeps local business in business.

Spending €20,000 in the local economy over 5 years would be more beneficial (to the local economy) than spending €20,000 down the local Hyundai garage.

So it would be silly for anyone to ever buy a new car?? And money to the Government pays for far more than that RJ, you know that, educating our workforce and paying out social welfare to struggling families..

Ardennes1944

........in the lane, snow is glistening.

166man

166man wrote: »

So it would be silly for anyone to ever buy a new car?? And money to the Government pays for far more than that RJ, you know that, educating our workforce and paying out social welfare to struggling families..

DId I say It would be silly?
FOrgive me for omitting to present the full detail of government expenditure.

166man

RoverJames wrote: »

DId I say It would be silly?
FOrgive me for omitting to present the full detail of government expenditure.

No but you did say instead of buying your €20k Hyundai don't nother just spend the €20k in your local town. I see the point you make about spending locally to keep businesses alive, that of course makes sense.

The 40% of that €20k and possibly more will be the money paying for the benefits payments and roads and so on..

166man

166man wrote: »

No but you did say instead of buying your €20k Hyundai don't nother just spend the €20k in your local town. I see the point you make about spending locally to keep businesses alive, that of course makes sense.

The 40% of that €20k and possibly more will be the money paying for the benefits payments and roads and so on..

Go back and read what I actually said

166man

RoverJames wrote: »

Spending €20,000 in the local economy over 5 years would be more beneficial (to the local economy) than spending €20,000 down the local Hyundai garage.

Yes this is what you said, am I missing something here? Its obvious that we should spend what disposable income people have left on Irish made goods but it's simple as people's incomes fall more imports are purchased due to the consumers being more price sensitive. The scrappage scheme was a great source of badly needed revenue for the Government..

Ardennes1944

How much of that 20k would be repatriated though?

galwaytt

166man wrote: »

RoverJames wrote: »

...Its obvious that we should spend what disposable income people have left on Irish made goods but it's simple as people's incomes fall more imports are purchased due to the consumers being more price sensitive. The scrappage scheme was a great source of badly needed revenue for the Government..

The flaw in your argument is that you are assuming domestic goods & services are more expensive than imports.

166man

galwaytt wrote: »

The flaw in your argument is that you are assuming domestic goods & services are more expensive than imports.

Yes I thought it was a wise assumpyion to make based on my own experiences, i.e food clothing and so on

EPM

166man wrote: »

Yes this is what you said, am I missing something here? Its obvious that we should spend what disposable income people have left on Irish made goods but it's simple as people's incomes fall more imports are purchased due to the consumers being more price sensitive. The scrappage scheme was a great source of badly needed revenue for the Government..

How can you possibly use this theory when comparing spend on a foreign luxury good and local services?!?

Ardennes1944

Ardennes1944 wrote: »

How much of that 20k would be repatriated though?

The vast majority of it eventually.

galwaytt

166man wrote: »

galwaytt wrote: »

The flaw in your argument is that you are assuming domestic goods & services are more expensive than imports.

Yes I thought it was a wise assumpyion to make based on my own experiences, i.e food clothing and so on

In the manufacturing industry myself, I can tell you that that is NOT a wise assumption. And, as we know, assumption is the mother of all fubars........consider: what do you do for a living, and what if people opted to not buy your product, on a false assumption...?

Domestically made, affordable food is widely available.

166man

EPM wrote: »

How can you possibly use this theory when comparing spend on a foreign luxury good and local services?!?

I'm not. I'm talking about normal goods and services seeing as this debate has taken a bit of a funny turn. As for the theory is one of the most basic theorys learnt when studying Microeconomics.

166man

166man wrote: »

I'm not. I'm talking about normal goods and services seeing as this debate has taken a bit of a funny turn. As for the theory is one of the most basic theorys learnt when studying Microeconomics.

Here's another theory, if you don't borrow to buy a new car you'll have a good bit more disposable income to play with. I know lots of folk with car loans and the majority of them are saying never again.

166man

RoverJames wrote: »

Here's another theory, if you don't borrow to buy a new car you'll have a good bit more disposable income to play with. I know lots of folk with car loans and the majority of them are saying never again.

And I would agree with you, borrowing money to buy a new car is silly IMO. I never once implied that it is a wise idea to take finance on a car. The idea of borrowing money you don't have to buy something you think you need/want is what got us all into this mess right?

EPM

166man wrote: »

I'm not. I'm talking about normal goods and services seeing as this debate has taken a bit of a funny turn. As for the theory is one of the most basic theorys learnt when studying Microeconomics.

I'm familiar with price elasticities but you're making an assumption that foreign goods are automatically cheaper. I'm going to drag this too far OT if I start so I will let the rest do it instead and say keep a motors twist on the explanations;)

166man

166man wrote: »

And I would agree with you, borrowing money to buy a new car is silly IMO. I never once implied that it is a wise idea to take finance on a car. The idea of borrowing money you don't have to buy something you think you need/want is what got us all into this mess right?

which brings us back to my original post in this thread...

RoverJames wrote: »

You've completely ignored the 2nd point Cinio made.
Instead of spending €300/month on car finance the Irish economy would benefit more by people spending that on taxis, in pubs, restaurants and clothes bought in local stores etc.

At this stage I think the majority of those folk driving sh1tters eligible for scrappage with cash in the bank who want a new car have already availed of it There was only a finite number of these folk about.

Ardennes1944

RoverJames wrote: »

The vast majority of it eventually.

Precisely

Ardennes1944

Ardennes1944 wrote: »

Precisely

Sorry I misread your question, I was on mobile earlier, I meant the vast majority of the money spent locally would make it's way back to the government as revenue. I don't think much of the cash going to car manufacturers gets "repatriated" here as you put it. It's not a case of us buying 100 VWs and the Germans buying 10,000 Irish steaks in return.

Absurdum

lobby group in pre-budget lobbying shocker :eek:

unkel

RoverJames wrote: »

the vast majority of the money spent locally would make it's way back to the government as revenue.

Profound point not often made. I doubt most people understand it though...

Apprentice Mechanic

I might wrong saying this the scrappage only helped the french the last few years because aload of people have brought renualt cars,vans and trucks

Victor

Spending money on new cars means money goes to:

• Car dealers / sales reps (a few % of the sales price)
• Car distributors (a few % of the sales price)
• Car manufacturers (the majority)
• Foreign banks (because the local banks don't have the money to lend)
• The government (a chunk)

Spending money on existing cars / other transport means money goes to:

• Wages and salaries (a chunk) - those wages and salaries get re-spent in the local economy
• Parts (a chunk)
• The government (a chunk)

At times like this we shouldn't be propping up foreign car manufacturers (are any parts made here these days?) and oil suppliers.