The Finland Phenomenon

pacquiao

The Finland Phenomenon (audio in English)

Finland’s education system has consistently ranked among the best in the world for more than a decade. The puzzle is, why Finland? Documentary filmmaker, Bob Compton, along with Harvard researcher, Dr. Tony Wagner, decided to find out.

Thought you teachers would like this.

#15

Finland does a lot of things that are the complete opposite of what is done in countries like Ireland, the US and the UK.
Pasi Sahlberg is an expert on Finland's education system. You should check out his work that's available online - it's a real eye-opener and it would make you despair at some of the junk currently being forced on schools by misguided policymakers and out-of-sector 'experts' that don't really know what they are talking about. Standardised testing, an obsession with national comparisons that are not always relevant, in-fashion methodologies, etc etc.

The new numeracy and literacy plan that has been released here is terrible - a real fudge and a passing of the buck by the department.
Wait, I'm digressing - thanks for the link anyway, will be sure to watch it over the next few days.:)

Edit: here is a talk by Sahlberg on what Finland did to reform its education system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR9_zy2FVS8

Nolanger

Would it have anything to do with higher qualifications required in Finland for teaching?

TheDriver

a friend did a study in teaching in Finland, they seem to do great in PISA because their course work and teaching are basically very similar to PISA type of questions etc.

LilMsss

Nolanger wrote: »

Would it have anything to do with higher qualifications required in Finland for teaching?

What higher qualifications? I did a quick search and the requirement for primary and secondary school teachers in Finland is for them to have a degree and masters. In Ireland, aside from the B.Ed. courses which are teacher training degrees, the majority of teachers will have a primary degree and a H.Dip/PGDE in order to be qualified to teach.

Also, a high number of teachers I have worked with also have a masters degree in addition to the above.

The only difference I could see is with Finnish pre-schools and creches (but I only glanced at this, so am open to correction) where the majority of workers are educated to degree standard in an area of education or child development, and are assisted by a number of other workers with lesser childcare qualifications than a degree.

I don't think the issues currently coming up in our primary and secondary schools are as a result of undereducated or underqualified teachers but far more likely a result of continuous cuts and the undervaluing of the work done in schools by the government and certain quarters in society.

With reference to the Finnish education system, I don't know enough about it to compare it to the Irish one, or to laud one as being superior to the other.

I definitely think there are aspects of the education system in other European countries that could be helpful and could complement what we currently have but I don't think we're in a position to consider a complete overhaul of our current system when education in this country is struggling just to keep afloat.

Delphi91

LilMsss wrote: »

...I don't think we're in a position to consider a complete overhaul of our current system when education in this country is struggling just to keep afloat.

Maybe that's the very reason why this is the best time to do it then!

LilMsss

Delphi91 wrote: »

Maybe that's the very reason why this is the best time to do it then!

And who is going to pay for the research that would need to go into this overhaul before it can be implemented? Who is going to pay for additional training for every teacher in the country to deliver this new curriculum at primary and secondary level? Not to mention all of the additional costs for new books/materials for every subject etc. that will be passed onto parents.

There is never a good time for a complete overhaul of any major institution in a country, however, attempting to enforce an entirely new system (I'm assuming at primary and secondary level) simply cannot be done when resources are so scarce, funding for special needs has been slashed, thousands of teachers are unemployed with more likely to join their ranks in each subsequent year with each austerity budget and so on.

We're already seeing massive (and not necessarily positive) changes being enforced in the new Junior Certificate programme being rolled out in 2013 and with talk of cutting transition year completely as an option across the country. Not to mention the continuous changes to the pupil-teacher ratio costing more jobs, increased hours for less pay, pension levy or the 10 % pay cut for new entrants to teaching etc. Throw a complete system overhaul at teachers and they'll simply walk, as they're at breaking point as it is.

But getting back to my original point, the primary reason that wholesale changes are not appropriate at this time, is because we have a very well implemented education system as it is, in spite of all of the cuts and austerity measures already delivered, so a massive overhaul at this time is unnecessary. And also, there is no provision through government funds to pay for this, if it was even on a government agenda to begin with.

Nolanger

LilMsss wrote: »

What higher qualifications? I did a quick search and the requirement for primary and secondary school teachers in Finland is for them to have a degree and masters. In Ireland, aside from the B.Ed. courses which are teacher training degrees, the majority of teachers will have a primary degree and a H.Dip/PGDE in order to be qualified to teach.

Well would Finland require a higher class of degree than here to get into teaching?

Greenmachine

Can someone explain to me how Finland is rated higher on most scales.
What are these scales.
How can the success of their compulsary education system be measured if they use almost no tests.
I don't have an hour so if someone could be me a shorter version, that would be awesome.

chippers

I think one of the key differences in the systems is that the colleges in Finland cherry pick the best candidates to become teachers. I don't think the PAC points system here is the best way to go.

golden virginia

The video shows that class sizes in Finland are small from primary level upwards. It visibly noticeable!

So in the success of Finland,,, its not rocket science- just smaller class sizes.

LilMsss

Nolanger wrote: »

Well would Finland require a higher class of degree than here to get into teaching?

There isn't really a higher 'class' of degree, as all third level courses are standardised internationally by the National Framework for Qualifications. So an honours degree in Ireland and one in Lithuania or Finland is an equivalent qualification.

chippers wrote: »

I think one of the key differences in the systems is that the colleges in Finland cherry pick the best candidates to become teachers. I don't think the PAC points system here is the best way to go.

Teacher training courses in Ireland, from the B.Ed. to the Primary H.Dip. and PGDE are highly competitive, as any prospective teacher will tell you. Having an excellent Leaving Certificate (for the B.Ed.) or high grade honours degree (for entry to one of the postgrad courses) is often not enough to get you onto the course. In addition, many candidates would have many hundreds of hours teaching unqualified in a school (although this has obviously been curtailed in recent years), and often a masters degree as well. Not to mention proficiency and experience in extra-curricular activities beneficial to future schools.

I don't know if it's still the case, but I was previously involved in teacher training in TCD, and it wasn't unknown for candidates to apply several years in a row before meeting the strict requirements as there was a points system involved which included the interview and aptitude for teaching etc.

So in answer to the poster quoted above, individuals accepted onto teacher training courses have already been 'cherry-picked' as being high grade candidates. However, this is not to suggest that once they are teaching that all newly-trained teachers are ideally suited to it, as this is very difficult to predict.

I fear this thread is going off-topic so I'll stop my post now.

Edit: Finally, just to add, perhaps the focus in Finnish teacher training emphasises differing pedagogical practices and theories than those in Ireland. Not necessarily better, just different.

chippers

LilMsss wrote: »

There isn't really a higher 'class' of degree, as all third level courses are standardised internationally by the National Framework for Qualifications. So an honours degree in Ireland and one in Lithuania or Finland is an equivalent qualification.



Teacher training courses in Ireland, from the B.Ed. to the Primary H.Dip. and PGDE are highly competitive, as any prospective teacher will tell you. Having an excellent Leaving Certificate (for the B.Ed.) or high grade honours degree (for entry to one of the postgrad courses) is often not enough to get you onto the course. In addition, many candidates would have many hundreds of hours teaching unqualified in a school (although this has obviously been curtailed in recent years), and often a masters degree as well. Not to mention proficiency and experience in extra-curricular activities beneficial to future schools.

I don't know if it's still the case, but I was previously involved in teacher training in TCD, and it wasn't unknown for candidates to apply several years in a row before meeting the strict requirements as there was a points system involved which included the interview and aptitude for teaching etc.

So in answer to the poster quoted above, individuals accepted onto teacher training courses have already been 'cherry-picked' as being high grade candidates. However, this is not to suggest that once they are teaching that all newly-trained teachers are ideally suited to it, as this is very difficult to predict.

I fear this thread is going off-topic so I'll stop my post now.

Edit: Finally, just to add, perhaps the focus in Finnish teacher training emphasises differing pedagogical practices and theories than those in Ireland. Not necessarily better, just different.

Having done the PGDE after applying through the PAC system I certainly don't believe I was cherry picked by the respective institution as the best candidate for the course. There was no interview process, I had no teaching experience and I did not demonstrate any experience in extra curricular activities. It felt it was quite a basic calculation solely based solely on my academic results. I'm not sure if using only a persons academic results is the appropriate means of choosing the best prospective teachers. This unfortunately is the system used to select the majority of student teachers that are trained in Ireland in each year.

evolving_doors

Anyone know the current pupil teacher ratio in Finland?

E.T.

Just on googling it seems to be around 20. This is from an OECD report (sorry about the long link).

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:9WOUCN1qdRIJ:www.oecd.org/dataoecd/61/28/48631144.pdf+finland+pupil+teacher+ratio&hl=en&gl=ie&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESg3TG3lnZlZGEpjpmnoG-cpPp5__SI5HrzqkKkJaZw0qVQZeY_yhViUvREVJMuqkxK4MN6IFKNmxIPxu4I30uxzNnsfbuNjzMtTj1i6SSuqmg8AAFTqC4Jbjg6DDDSUvT48b95c&sig=AHIEtbTQiWiAgHIrg29SC58GRL4c1KdiMA&pli=1

evolving_doors

E.T. wrote: »

Just on googling it seems to be around 20. This is from an OECD report (sorry about the long link).

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:9WOUCN1qdRIJ:www.oecd.org/dataoecd/61/28/48631144.pdf+finland+pupil+teacher+ratio&hl=en&gl=ie&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESg3TG3lnZlZGEpjpmnoG-cpPp5__SI5HrzqkKkJaZw0qVQZeY_yhViUvREVJMuqkxK4MN6IFKNmxIPxu4I30uxzNnsfbuNjzMtTj1i6SSuqmg8AAFTqC4Jbjg6DDDSUvT48b95c&sig=AHIEtbTQiWiAgHIrg29SC58GRL4c1KdiMA&pli=1

Thanks it's hard to get an up to date figure....

golden virginia

Its around twenty from primary upwards - thats the big difference.
In primary they often have the same teacher for several years that brings them up through the currciulum.

In second level - the classes are timetabled like college. Students have a set number of modules to do at senior cycle. They can choose to do them in a short as two years and as long as 4 years. So they can choose how may classes to take over a set year, and have a flexible timetable.

LilMsss

chippers wrote: »

Having done the PGDE after applying through the PAC system I certainly don't believe I was cherry picked by the respective institution as the best candidate for the course. There was no interview process, I had no teaching experience and I did not demonstrate any experience in extra curricular activities. It felt it was quite a basic calculation solely based solely on my academic results. I'm not sure if using only a persons academic results is the appropriate means of choosing the best prospective teachers. This unfortunately is the system used to select the majority of student teachers that are trained in Ireland in each year.

That seems to be one of the problems with some of the PGDE courses being offered by universities out there at the moment who seem, in many ways, more interested in achieving high student numbers (and fees) than quality of graduates. Then again, the same can be said for many different kinds of postgraduate courses, as universities are, afterall a business.

You're right about it being a mistake to simply base entry to courses on academic results alone and not on aptitude and other relevant experience.

I was indirectly involved with the PGDE (as I lectured on courses within the same department) in TCD and entry was definitely competitive, every candidate who met the basic criteria was invited for interview, along with a points system as mentioned in a previous post.

The same can't be said for every institute offering these courses, but standards in teacher training are just one aspect of overall quality in an education system.

Ellis Dee

There are many reasons for the Finns' success in education, but one important one is that education is enshrined in the Constitution as a fundamental right.

"Section 16 - Educational rights

Everyone has the right to basic education free of charge. Provisions on the duty to receive education are laid down by an Act.
The public authorities shall, as provided in more detail by an Act, guarantee for everyone equal opportunity to receive other educational services in accordance with their ability and special needs, as well as the opportunity to develop themselves without being prevented by economic hardship.
The freedom of science, the arts and higher education is guaranteed."

Most schools are a local-government responsibility and have to comply with regulations, standards and guidelines that are set by the central government authorities. Education is free, which extends also to school meals (of rigorously enforced quality standards), textbooks, copybooks, even pencils and erasers. And there are no school uniforms.:)

Another factor is that teaching enjoys considerable esteem as a profession, teachers are well-trained and there is good consultation with parents through PTA-like bodies.

Last but not least, I believe another important factor is that the church (which in Finland is responsible for religious services and things like that for anyone who is interested and otherwise keeps its nose out of societal matters) has no control over or input into schools.;)