Is Islam too introverted?

gawker

Hi there. I am a non-Muslim but I hope you do not take this as offensive or anything. Anyway, here goes...

I am currently studying in Sweden and am part of a very international mix of students. Many of them come from Asia, the Middle East and Africa. Since we are all breaking up for Christmas soon, some people in the course thought it would be a nice idea to have a get-together. At first drinks were mentioned, but none of the Muslim class members were up for it. This of course was understandable, despite the fact bars here are very non-alcholol drinker friendly.

A night at the movies was then suggested. Once again, no muslim member was up for that bar one girl from Iran. A Pakistani student mentioned that they would not really be into western movies and the cinema here does not show anything suitable for them. Bowling was mentioned but that was also knocked down - the bowling alley here doubles up as a bar.

I also noticed whilst making teams, those from Arab countries made sure to team up with each other immediately and shunned offers from people of different backgrounds. A big part of our course is working in International teams, but even the intervention of the lecturers did not help with this.

Finally, I live in a student apartment complex here that used to be a hotel. It has 8 floors. One of those floors has only Muslims on it. At first I assumed that this was a strange coincidence, but it turns out that it is requested by those of Muslim faith.

Anyway, I think you get the picture. Sweden is by far the most open culture I have experienced, and that includes an openness to people of Muslum faith. However, it seems any open advances are being shrugged off by Muslim immigrants here and they become an introverted community who want nothing to do with the culture around them.

Is it a case that being a Muslim makes integration much more difficult, or am I just unlucky with the people I got in my university course? I do hate to generalize, but Sweden has been my first real experience of Muslims and I am surprised by the trends I am seeing.

Siuin

My cousin said that too- she's studying medicine and there are a lot of Malaysian Muslims in her year and they hardly ever interact with the non-Muslim students, even in class. Then again, religions tend to have certain rules (such as dietary laws) where part of it's purpose is to distinguish the religious group and avoid them mixing with others, to lessen the possibility of mixed marriages occurring or them adopting 'bad' habits. It's a pity, though- I do think they're missing out by not having that interaction with their peers.

Jaafa

gawker wrote: »

Hi there. I am a non-Muslim but I hope you do not take this as offensive or anything. Anyway, here goes...

I am currently studying in Sweden and am part of a very international mix of students. Many of them come from Asia, the Middle East and Africa. Since we are all breaking up for Christmas soon, some people in the course thought it would be a nice idea to have a get-together. At first drinks were mentioned, but none of the Muslim class members were up for it. This of course was understandable, despite the fact bars here are very non-alcholol drinker friendly.

A night at the movies was then suggested. Once again, no muslim member was up for that bar one girl from Iran. A Pakistani student mentioned that they would not really be into western movies and the cinema here does not show anything suitable for them. Bowling was mentioned but that was also knocked down - the bowling alley here doubles up as a bar.

I also noticed whilst making teams, those from Arab countries made sure to team up with each other immediately and shunned offers from people of different backgrounds. A big part of our course is working in International teams, but even the intervention of the lecturers did not help with this.

Finally, I live in a student apartment complex here that used to be a hotel. It has 8 floors. One of those floors has only Muslims on it. At first I assumed that this was a strange coincidence, but it turns out that it is requested by those of Muslim faith.

Anyway, I think you get the picture. Sweden is by far the most open culture I have experienced, and that includes an openness to people of Muslum faith. However, it seems any open advances are being shrugged off by Muslim immigrants here and they become an introverted community who want nothing to do with the culture around them.

Is it a case that being a Muslim makes integration much more difficult, or am I just unlucky with the people I got in my university course? I do hate to generalize, but Sweden has been my first real experience of Muslims and I am surprised by the trends I am seeing.

The thing with Muslims not going out to socialize because of alcohol, dietary concerns etc is quite true. I being a Muslim also go out far less than my Irish friends, however there are other factors too.
This is more cultural than religious but really where I come from and where most Muslims come from are very close knit societies. Like way more than you'll have seen anywhere in Europe.
This might explain why, as you said, they requested to share a floor in the apartment bloc and stick together a lot. Maybe they feel a need for this close knit community feeling again and they don't think they'll find it with non-Arabs/Malay,or Africans. (note not just non-muslims)
As well as that we just don't do the whole going out till the early hours. We like our sleep. :P

All that said I find it a bit excessive what the Muslims are doing in your course. I'm in UCD atm and the other Muslims here seem to interact fine with Irish people and go out the odd time too. So maybe it is as you said 'a bad group'.

Hobbes

You talk about being open, but you only want them to go to places you want?

Why not suggest to go out to a Halal-vegi restaurant? I am not vegetarian, but I would chomp on a few veggies at least once if we needed a get-together with a team.

I can't comment on the teaming or building as it seems somewhat anecdotal and I haven't seen such a thing either way.

gawker

Jaafa wrote: »

The thing with Muslims not going out to socialize because of alcohol, dietary concerns etc is quite true. I being a Muslim also go out far less than my Irish friends, however there are other factors too.
This is more cultural than religious but really where I come from and where most Muslims come from are very close knit societies. Like way more than you'll have seen anywhere in Europe.
This might explain why, as you said, they requested to share a floor in the apartment bloc and stick together a lot. Maybe they feel a need for this close knit community feeling again and they don't think they'll find it with non-Arabs/Malay,or Africans. (note not just non-muslims)
As well as that we just don't do the whole going out till the early hours. We like our sleep. :P

All that said I find it a bit excessive what the Muslims are doing in your course. I'm in UCD atm and the other Muslims here seem to interact fine with Irish people and go out the odd time too. So maybe it is as you said 'a bad group'.

Thanks for the reply! I was wondering if it was just a cultural thing. I am sure that does play some part in it. It's just all a bit disappointing really. I was looking forward to the whole multicultural aspect of this year, but those who really believe differently from me seem to just stick together and avoid others. Hopefully we can find something in common eventually.

Hobbes wrote: »

You talk about being open, but you only want them to go to places you want?

Why not suggest to go out to a Halal-vegi restaurant? I am not vegetarian, but I would chomp on a few veggies at least once if we needed a get-together with a team.

I am vegetarian, so I would have no problem going to a vegi resteraunt. There is none in this city though, although every food place would offer vegi options. I don't "only want them to go to places I want" - there have been a few options that do not involve drink or food thrown up but they have been turned down.

Hobbes

gawker wrote: »

there have been a few options that do not involve drink or food thrown up but they have been turned down.

I find in situations like this you ask them to arrange where to go or to give suggestions.

wes

Maybe a culture thing. I interacted with my fellow class mates in college just fine, but then I was born here in Ireland, so I guess I would be different from immigrants. Having said that, some of the other Muslim class members in my college interacted fine, with one exception.

Siuin

The students in my college who generally don't mix are most often the ones who speak Malay to each other, whereas Muslims who speak English most if not all the time in their day to day lives integrate with Irish people a lot more. The males tend to be secular, but I have seen quite a lot of Muslim girls wearing hijab who have a group of Irish friends. Religion aside, people who speak the same language will generally congregate together just as a matter of practicality.

Jaafa

Siuin wrote: »

The students in my college who generally don't mix are most often the ones who speak Malay to each other, whereas Muslims who speak English most if not all the time in their day to day lives integrate with Irish people a lot more. The males tend to be secular, but I have seen quite a lot of Muslim girls wearing hijab who have a group of Irish friends. Religion aside, people who speak the same language will generally congregate together just as a matter of practicality.

I agree with this, language is a major factor too and I have noticed the same occurrence as described above because of it.

irishh_bob

gawker wrote: »

Thanks for the reply! I was wondering if it was just a cultural thing. I am sure that does play some part in it. It's just all a bit disappointing really. I was looking forward to the whole multicultural aspect of this year, but those who really believe differently from me seem to just stick together and avoid others. Hopefully we can find something in common eventually.




I am vegetarian, so I would have no problem going to a vegi resteraunt. There is none in this city though, although every food place would offer vegi options. I don't "only want them to go to places I want" - there have been a few options that do not involve drink or food thrown up but they have been turned down.

you will likely be sorely disapointed if you cling to the idea that ( in general ) muslims will have something in common with a liberal multiculturalist like yourself

Siuin

irishh_bob wrote: »

you will likely be sorely disapointed if you cling to the idea that ( in general ) muslims will have something in common with a liberal multiculturalist like yourself

Any Muslims I've met in Dublin have been very liberal and multicultural...? I don't see where you're going with that idiotic generalisation that because they're Muslim they must be insular conservatives

irishh_bob

Siuin wrote: »

Any Muslims I've met in Dublin have been very liberal and multicultural...? I don't see where you're going with that idiotic generalisation that because they're Muslim they must be insular conservatives

well the ones described by the OP dont sound like it despite the fact that they live in ultra liberal sweeden

Siuin

irishh_bob wrote: »

well the ones described by the OP dont sound like it despite the fact that they live in ultra liberal sweeden

You'll find conservative people everywhere, no matter how 'ultra liberal' their country is and no matter what their religion. It's impossible to make such a sweeping statement about over a billion people.

ResearchWill

I suppose there is a Muslim in some country started a thread just like this about the Christans, they never go here or there they only want to stay in each others apartments drink do they ever get out. As an other poster said try to think of things that won't cause issue arrange to go to a halal restaurant. I have a good friend who has a few Muslim lads working in his shop, every year they invite everyone to dinner in their place, the food is always great, no drink of course, but it's always a lovely night, they make an effort to welcome people.

irishconvert

irishh_bob wrote: »

well the ones described by the OP dont sound like it despite the fact that they live in ultra liberal sweeden

Ultra liberal Sweden?!! Where you only have one off-licence per town that shuts at 10pm!! Doesn't sound very liberal to me.

gawker

irishconvert wrote: »

Ultra liberal Sweden?!! Where you only have one off-licence per town that shuts at 10pm!! Doesn't sound very liberal to me.

Much to my dismay

Onesimus

I went to an adult school with muslim girl. She was really quiet and introvert with the other students but she was very open with me and talked to me a lot, this has probably got a lot to do with our shared Love for the One God. She would also help me with my maths questions.

I have to say though. I've never spoken with a muslim outside the ''HSE'' sphere other than that girl so they do seem to be a rather underground society.

oceanclub

Even in Malaysian society there are big gaps between conservative Malays(*) and more liberal ones. I recall my bro-in-law-to-be (a Hindu, going out with a Christian) mentioning in a mixed group that he once dated a Muslim who wore a headscarf (tudung) and _everyone_, including the liberal Malays, was amazed.

(*) I won't use the word "traditional" here, since the change to conservatism there over the past few decades seems to be anything _but_ traditional and more related to influence from outside such as from the Saudis.

P.