conception cert versus birth cert

timhoward

conception cert versus birth cert, given that the constitution of ireland accepts that life begins at moment of conception should ireland not be issueing conception certs rather than birth certs

Ken.

Seeing as women are born with all the eggs they'll ever use should my birth date be the same as my mothers,my granmothers,great granmothers etc.

seamus

The constitution of Ireland says nothing about life beginning at the moment of conception.

Under Irish law, the unborn are not considered Irish citizens until 24 weeks into gestation. Before that it's considered a miscarriage and a birth certificate is not issued.

Besides, a "conception cert" seems redundant. If someone wishes to know when they were conceived, it was approximately 38 weeks before the date on their birth cert.

whydoibother?

And how would a conception cert system work exactly. The Department of Health would send an official to the event to witness and verify?

Ms Minnie Mouse

Date of conception being defined as the day of the 'act' or the day the cells start to split? How could this possibly be verified? Considering that statistically up to 1 in 4 pregnancies end in miscarriage (this includes those that have not yet been detected -i.e. pregnancy loss prior to normal tests detecting pregnancy hormones) this could create great difficulties - both emotionally and administratively!

Ms Minnie Mouse

We could also rename Death Certificates as 'Change of Circumstance Certificates', thereby encompassing all spiritual and rationalistic viewpoints!

whydoibother?

Ms Minnie Mouse wrote: »

Date of conception being defined as the day of the 'act' or the day the cells start to split? How could this possibly be verified? Considering that statistically up to 1 in 4 pregnancies end in miscarriage (this includes those that have not yet been detected -i.e. pregnancy loss prior to normal tests detecting pregnancy hormones) this could create great difficulties - both emotionally and administratively!

Yeah, the official would have to stay around for the best part of a week to be sure.

Ms Minnie Mouse

whydoibother? wrote: »

Yeah, the official would have to stay around for the best part of a week to be sure.

Sadly I know people who would take on that job free of charge! :eek:

coylemj

timhoward wrote: »

given that the constitution of ireland accepts that life begins at moment of conception....

It does not, you cannot be convicted of murder for killing a foetus. If the constitution accepted that life begins at birth, there would be no need for a separate criminal offence of procuring an abortion.

'Life' in the context of a separate existence from the mother begins at birth.

timhoward

i spoke to a barrister about it and he seemed to believe that a very strong legal arguement could be made in relation to this and it would open up the biggest can of worms the state has ever seen in relation to naturalization etc citizenship etc , i just wanted other peoples views on the subject

coylemj

What motivated you to bring up the subject with a barrister?

whydoibother?

What exactly did a barrister tell you?

If a barrister told you that there's been a lot of uncertainty in Irish law as to when life begins, I can believe that.

But did a barrister actually go as far as to say that the state should go around issuing conception certificates or is that your own idea?

Ms Minnie Mouse

I see opportunities here. An example - my partner and I go to America - get a bit amourous - 9 months later Baby Mouse is born. As BM was conceived in America and has a certificate to prove it, BM gets US Citizenship. Oh, wait, Mr Mouse and I are both from the UK - so BM gets to stay in the states but we have to go home.

Saves on babysitters I suppose.

Maybe the issue here that the barrister was referring to is when a women gets pregnant overseas, then emigrates to Ireland, where the child is born. Therefore child is not Irish by right of birth but are actually the nationality of their place of conception. Thereby having no automatic right to live in Ireland.

Oh, wait...

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/act/pub/0038/sec0004.html#sec4

Would certainly open a can of worms if place of conception governed Citizenship above all other considerations...

Milk & Honey

When life begins was decided by Mr. Justice Brian McGovern, in the Case of M.R. v. T.R. and Others in the High Court, Dublin [2004 No.9792 P.] on 15th
November, 2006.

He decided that life begins at 4 O' Clock in the afternoon.

timhoward

no minnie mouse the situation is unique to ireland because of our constitution, as for barrister no he didnt tell me the state should issue conception certs as per say but that the case could be reasonably argued and if won that would be the case and if won it would open a huge can of worms in that anyone who could prove they concieved here would be entitled to irish citizenship. he did not say it would win he just said that he believed it could be reasonably challenged in the courts and a case could be argued for it. as for why i brought it up i guess i just wanted to see what people think, its something i came up with about 4 years ago when i considered going back to college as a mature student to do law and i was preparing for the interview, our constitution is unique in regards to life

drkpower

timhoward wrote: »

conception cert versus birth cert, given that the constitution of ireland accepts that life begins at moment of conception should ireland not be issueing conception certs rather than birth certs

Where precisely do you (or your barrister-friend) think that the constitution accepts that life begins at moment of conception?

Ms Minnie Mouse

This is covered in the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2004.

6A.—(1) A person born in the island of Ireland shall not be entitled to be an Irish citizen unless a parent of that person has, during the period of 4 years immediately preceding the person's birth, been resident in the island of Ireland for a period of not less than 3 years or periods the aggregate of which is not less than 3 years.

Would have to have been a long pregnancy to meet the residency requirement prior to the birth of the child and for that period to have been shorter than the period between conception and birth.

The exceptions to this as stated in the act generally (but not exclusively) apply to the nationality of the parents. This is not something that would be changed by the date/place of conception. ALTHOUGH - what would happen were citizenship granted post conception and prior birth? The act does seem very clear that BIRTH is the deciding factor and not 'when life begins'.

coylemj

timhoward wrote: »

...... and if won it would open a huge can of worms in that anyone who could prove they concieved here would be entitled to irish citizenship

Since the 27th amendment in 2004, even being born here no longer confers automatic citizenship so where does conception come into the equation and what citizenship rights are you claiming derive from being conceived in Ireland?

timhoward wrote: »

he did not say it would win he just said that he believed it could be reasonably challenged in the courts and a case could be argued for it.

What specific Act(s) of the Oireachtas could be 'reasonably challenged'?

Ms Minnie Mouse

Purely as a matter of debate and setting aside existing legislation - a couple of points for thought.

If you were a law maker and charged with drafting a piece of legislation for the country of conception to be a consideration in relation to nationality;

a) What would you accept as proof of the country of conception;
b) How would you calculate the exact date of conception, bearing in mind that this could be a deciding factor in working out the location of conception (remember that AVERAGE gestation is between 38-40 weeks. Although, of course, it's not. That's counting from the start of the woman's cycle. Women vary and conception could ultimately be at any time within that month. Also, some babies are naturally born early, some are naturally born late).
c) With the freedom of travel such as it is these days - would you be able to be certain that the baby wasn't conceived during a weekend trip to London or similar? How would you establish this in order to decide nationality?

I am certain that if point b) were possible, establishing paternity in some cases would be a lot easier than DNA testing!

Peregrinus

I think your barrister friend is having you on. You need to sharpen up your sense of when you’re having the piss taken out of you.

It’s true that the constitution explicitly “acknowledges the right to life of the unborn”, but it does not acknowledge any right to citizenship on the part of the unborn. In the right to life provisions the unborn are conspicuously not referred to as citizens, in marked contrast to all the other rights. (“No citizen shall be deprives of his personal liberty save in accordance with the law . . . the dwelling of every citizen is inviolable . . . the right of citizens to express freely their convictions and opinions” but “the right to life of the unborn.)

And when we turn to the articles dealing with citizenship and national identity, we find that they take the same approach - “it is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland to be part of the Irish Nation”. And in Article 9 we also find that the “acquisition . . . of Irish citizenship shall be determined in accordance with law”. And I won’t bother to quote it, but rest assured that the law concerned does not confer citizenship on people conceived in Ireland.

So having been conceived gives you a constitutional right to life, but it does not give you a constitutional claim to Irish citizenship or Irish identity. For that, you have to actually get born.

234

timhoward wrote: »

given that the constitution of ireland accepts that life begins at moment of conception

Well this is incorrect for starters. The earliest that the court will consider life as accuring it at implantation. Otherwise the morning-after pill would amount to murder.