America is now officially a police state

zero_hope

Senate passed a bill that would allow indefinite detention of Americans considered to be "terrorists". Anyone who thought rule of law existed in America is delusional. http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/senate-passes-bill-allowing-indefinite-detention-americans-considers-bill-authorizing-mo

Overheal

zero_hope wrote: »

Senate passed a bill that would allow indefinite detention of Americans considered to be "terrorists". Anyone who thought rule of law existed in America is delusional. http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/senate-passes-bill-allowing-indefinite-detention-americans-considers-bill-authorizing-mo

How is that much different from the Patriot Act?

Manic Moran

Maybe I'm missing something here, but Sec 1032 of the bill seems pretty specific.

(b) Applicability to United States Citizens and Lawful Resident Aliens-

(1) UNITED STATES CITIZENS- The requirement to detain a person in military custody under this section does not extend to citizens of the United States.

(2) LAWFUL RESIDENT ALIENS- The requirement to detain a person in military custody under this section does not extend to a lawful resident alien of the United States on the basis of conduct taking place within the United States, except to the extent permitted by the Constitution of the United States.

seanybiker

To be honest I wouldn't be up on this but I thought that's the way it was anyway.

Overheal

Manic Moran wrote: »

Maybe I'm missing something here, but Sec 1032 of the bill seems pretty specific.

Wouldnt that be specific to Section 1032 in fairness?

Manic Moran

Overheal wrote: »

Wouldnt that be specific to Section 1032 in fairness?

Since the bit which is causing all the hassle is Sec 1031, which talks about the military's ability to detain people, Sec 1032 which explains which people the military can or cannot detain seems quite relevant.

NTM

RichieC

seanybiker wrote: »

To be honest I wouldn't be up on this but I thought that's the way it was anyway.

They kit their police out in the latest military gear.

It is a police state.

Overheal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_state

Denerick

RichieC wrote: »

They kit their police out in the latest military gear.

It is a police state.

America is a police state alright. Imagine such a disgusting system that requires the arresting police officer to tell you your legal rights as they arrest you, a judicial system that provides you a defense attorney, a legal system that permits a series of often painstaking appeal trials... Such a monstrosity could never have been devised by the wits of man, it is satans work, and it is certainly evil.

Overheal

RichieC wrote: »

They kit their police out in the latest military gear.

It is a police state.

As I mentioned earlier, thats not really the definition of a police state.

However, slightly off topic: Motorola has helped make KITT a near-reality

http://gizmodo.com/5863979/you-cant-run-from-the-cop-car-of-the-future

Arfan

Have they set up the FEMA camps yet?

jackiebaron

Manic Moran wrote: »

Maybe I'm missing something here, but Sec 1032 of the bill seems pretty specific.

Great, so what you're saying is that it's ok for this to apply to anyone else, e.g. tourists? undocumented persons? those who can't prove their status? You're saying it's ok for citizens and resident aliens to have more protection under the law and more civil/human rights than others?

jackiebaron

Denerick wrote: »

America is a police state alright. Imagine such a disgusting system that requires the arresting police officer to tell you your legal rights as they arrest you, a judicial system that provides you a defense attorney, a legal system that permits a series of often painstaking appeal trials... Such a monstrosity could never have been devised by the wits of man, it is satans work, and it is certainly evil.

If the requirements that you talk of are eschewed on paper but hold no sway then they don't exist. The constitution states that a person has the right to be secure about his person and possessions and free from unreasonable search and seizure...ON PAPER....in reality this is meaningless. You can be stopped and searched anywhere in America and if you complain you can also be detained WITHOUT rights read to you. You can also be held without charge even if Habaeus Corpus (ON PAPER) states that charges must be levelled or a writ produced. You can be spied on without a warrant.

So please, don't insult peoples' intelligence with nonsense on paper that holds zero sway in reality. Posse Comitatus has recently been scrapped.

America is a police state and there is no denying it. Police routinely beat anyone who they deem doesn't show them enough "respect" and that includes 90 pound girls in flip-flops who freely and peacefully demonstrate against [insert any cause that is your right here]. They handcuff 6 year-olds who cycle on the footpath. They beat the fück out of unarmed people purely for fun and they'd gladly do it to you as well.

Overheal

you've thrown around that 6 year old handcuffing as an example several times in the last month and I haven't seen a single link to any of it. I'm willing to ignore all the hyperbole you can't hope to back up, like "They beat the fück out of unarmed people purely for fun and they'd gladly do it to you as well".

steelcityblues

Overheal wrote: »

you've thrown around that 6 year old handcuffing as an example several times in the last month and I haven't seen a single link to any of it. I'm willing to ignore all the hyperbole you can't hope to back up, like "They beat the fück out of unarmed people purely for fun and they'd gladly do it to you as well".

Plenty of videos online will show you how many rank and file officers abuse their position, and act like straight up bully boys.

Stop living in la la land about this serious problem.

psychward

Manic Moran wrote: »

Maybe I'm missing something here, but Sec 1032 of the bill seems pretty specific.

So is this like how Roman citizenship gave you special advantages back in the day ? I'm not an arts student however I seem to remember from books and film that it was forbidden to torture, enslave and use the death penalty against Roman citizens etc. I think everyone else had much less protection.

Overheal

steelcityblues wrote: »

Plenty of videos online will show you how many rank and file officers abuse their position, and act like straight up bully boys.

Stop living in la la land about this serious problem.

I'm not denying there is excessive use of force, I am however questioning the argument that they do it for the pure and sheer sake of fun.

steelcityblues

Overheal wrote: »

I'm not denying there is excessive use of force, I am however questioning the argument that they do it for the pure and sheer sake of fun.

When you see videos of them using excessive force on pensioners, who just happened to be driving a bit clumsily, then it is clear some do get a kick out of it.

Any position of major authority will always be attractive to some psychos, that's the reality.

matthew8

It's getting too authoritarian for my liking but come on now, police state is pushing it. Maybe if you compared it to Northern and Western Europe it may seem a bit police state like but compare it to the rest of the world and it's a very free nation.

SamHarris

matthew8 wrote: »

It's getting too authoritarian for my liking but come on now, police state is pushing it. Maybe if you compared it to Northern and Western Europe it may seem a bit police state like but compare it to the rest of the world and it's a very free nation.

In western Europe and Ireland you can be arressted for saying "rascist" things. Routinely groups and opinions are censored and punished by law. This is not seen as a massive invasion of liberty (as it would in the States) by some on this forum not because of the substance of the infringments themselves, but because to them Western Europe is The Model. It is more about trying to convince others that their hysterical views of the US are based on a real swing to authotarianism than it is about actual policies.

PATRIOT act or not privacy laws in the US are still FAR stronger than anywhere in Europe.

There is an awful lot of "Its a police state maaaaan!" in this thread, with little or no evidence. If you believe it is then you dont know what a police state is, that is a fact. Its also telling that its the same people that its always come out with stuff like this, for example the delightful RichieC. I would ask them, is this really about what they see going on or what they hope is happening/ hope other people think is happening?

SamHarris

psychward wrote: »

So is this like how Roman citizenship gave you special advantages back in the day ? I'm not an arts student however I seem to remember from books and film that it was forbidden to torture, enslave and use the death penalty against Roman citizens etc. I think everyone else had much less protection.

The US gives its CITIZENS rights it does not to non citizens!? MY god! When will these monster yanks be stopped!? When!? :eek:

psychward

SamHarris wrote: »

The US gives its CITIZENS rights it does not to non citizens!? MY god! When will these monster yanks be stopped!? When!? :eek:

I never made any value judgements about this. I'm staying diplomatically out of that. I find it interesting to observe however. They don't waterboard US citizens for example , right ? So between 2 suspects of equal suspicion (for whatever) , the US citizen has it easier, right ?

RichieC

psychward wrote: »

I never made any value judgements about this. I'm staying diplomatically out of that. I find it interesting to observe however. They don't waterboard US citizens for example , right ? So between 2 suspects of equal suspicion (for whatever) , the US citizen has it easier, right ?

yes. unless they're brown.

psychward

RichieC wrote: »

yes. unless they're brown.

in which case they become President ?

Manic Moran

jackiebaron wrote: »

You're saying it's ok for citizens and resident aliens to have more protection under the law and more civil/human rights than others?

Don't they already in the US? The Constitution itself makes distinction between "citizens" and "persons", for example, the legal distinction has not been lost upon the courts over the last couple of centuries as they have applied the provisions of the Constitution to different persons.

NTM

jackiebaron

SamHarris wrote: »

In western Europe and Ireland you can be arressted for saying "rascist" things. Routinely groups and opinions are censored and punished by law. This is not seen as a massive invasion of liberty (as it would in the States) by some on this forum not because of the substance of the infringments themselves, but because to them Western Europe is The Model. It is more about trying to convince others that their hysterical views of the US are based on a real swing to authotarianism than it is about actual policies.

PATRIOT act or not privacy laws in the US are still FAR stronger than anywhere in Europe.

There is an awful lot of "Its a police state maaaaan!" in this thread, with little or no evidence. If you believe it is then you dont know what a police state is, that is a fact. Its also telling that its the same people that its always come out with stuff like this, for example the delightful RichieC. I would ask them, is this really about what they see going on or what they hope is happening/ hope other people think is happening?

Utter, UTTER BÜLL****. You CANNOT be arrested in the UK OR Ireland for racist ...or as you put it "rascist" talk.

Do NOT pretend to know what you are talking about...and stop büll****ting.

Final recommendation.....SOBER UP!

jackiebaron

Overheal wrote: »

you've thrown around that 6 year old handcuffing as an example several times in the last month and I haven't seen a single link to any of it. I'm willing to ignore all the hyperbole you can't hope to back up, like "They beat the fück out of unarmed people purely for fun and they'd gladly do it to you as well".

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/crime/6-year-old-kids-handcuffed-talking-school-threatened-jail

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2010/feb/11/port-st-lucie-schools-confines-6-year-old-with/

http://rt.com/usa/news/handcuffed-class-school-carin/


Now, these are just the SIX YEAR OLDS, that you think I'm bullshïtting about. How about this kid who is clipped for belching in school:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/01/suit-filed-after-nm-teen-_0_n_1124180.html

Again, you may come out and vomit some crap that cuffing or detaining children keeps "you safe". In my country, if a cop cuffed a child, he/she would be near beaten to death. Not in America though. I understand that an American cop TAZED a toddler at one stage. I think it was about 2 months ago. And people didn't lynch this bastard.

http://www.wpbf.com/news/22526263/detail.html


Not a police state:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMttt6Gw6tM

Now, you may want anyone who stands up (according to the rights "allegedly" afforded to them by the US Constitution) and speaks their mind to just SHUT UP, but when someone, like this man, stands up alone, and speaks his mind...as is his right...and he then gets assaulted by police, not only that but he gets electrocuted, he screams for help and nobody comes forward....because they're frightened of the thugs with the tazers. Furthermore, there is a SENATOR watching this...and he allows it to happen.

THAT, my friends, is a police state:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bVa6jn4rpE

See, how people just watch like lemmings.

FISMA

Manic Moran wrote: »

Maybe I'm missing something here, but Sec 1032 of the bill seems pretty specific.

C'mon manic, you weren't actually supposed to read the bill!:D

psychward

jackiebaron wrote: »

Utter, UTTER BÜLL****. You CANNOT be arrested in the UK OR Ireland for racist ...or as you put it "rascist" talk.

Do NOT pretend to know what you are talking about...and stop büll****ting.

Final recommendation.....SOBER UP!

Right. I just saw your post and I am mystified as to how certain you are of your opinion above while at the same time being absolutely unbelieveably wrong.

To back up my claim that you are wrong I submit the following :



Prohibition of Incitement To Hatred Act, 1989
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1989/en/act/pub/0019/index.html

An instance of the law being used:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2000/0914/hatred.html


Changed your mind yet ?
Google will show you that similar laws and with more experience of enforcement exists in the UK also.

jackiebaron

matthew8 wrote: »

It's getting too authoritarian for my liking but come on now, police state is pushing it. Maybe if you compared it to Northern and Western Europe it may seem a bit police state like but compare it to the rest of the world and it's a very free nation.

Well Americans profess that America is the "most free" :pac: country in the history of the universe. One of the most infantile quips I've ever heard. so you tell us this. What is your definition of freedom? What is absolute freedom? Because in my opinion a person should be allowed to go anywhere, do anything and say anything without interference or resistance as long as those actions do not cause detriment to others. In America you can't drink a beer in a public space. How cretinous is that? And don't give me some lame rationale behind this pathetic law. If you are wandering along a highway minding your own business and an agent of the state demands to know who you are, where you are going, etc. and you refuse to say a word....he will attack or try to detain (enslave) you. If you attempt to resist this, he will beat or even shoot you. At best he will have you imprisoned for "resisting arrest".

In America if a policeman just decides to demand identification of you and you refuse to produce it he will become belligerent and most probably will detain you, aggressively I might add. This would not happen in, for example, Germany (where I happen to temporarily reside) because the cop would know full well that he has no right to simply ask for "papers". In the US, however, the cop doesn't care what his remit is. He doesn't care about rights. If he feels he can harass someone he will do it knowing that he will not face any ramifications. The only times that cops in the US face any kind of discipline for taking the law into their own hands is when their brutality is so outrageous as to cause public outcry. Case in point Abner Louima who was beaten and had his spleen ruptured by the charming method of having a broken wooden plunger shaft rammed up his anus. Or those dogs in New Orleans who took it upon themselves to play real-life Quake by simply blasting away at innocent unarmed civilians. One of them, a woman, had her arm SHOT OFF.

That is a police state and the only reason you are denying it is because you don't want to believe that such barbarism could happen to you.

Whenever you hear people making excuses for this then you know that it is a police state because you should NEVER have to rationalise an assault on personal liberty. Such an assault should never exist.

jackiebaron

Anyway, who gives a fück? Seriously? America is finished. They're farting around the world trying to encircle China and Russia. They attempt to plant their flag in Iraq and Afghanistan in order to cut off China from Caspian reserves and their defeat and retreat from there tells them nothing. They try to cut off Russia's trade partners in Libya and Syria and sink further into the mire. In 2008, 1.2 BILLION mobile phones were sold. Not a single one of them was manufactured in the US. The place is a joke. One out of every 150 people in the US is behind bars. One in 9 is on foodstamps. 1 in 4 are functionally illiterate. 1 in 7 can't read at all. America spends $3.9 dollars on Chinese products for every $1 that China spends on American goods.

Police state or not, who cares? You can crap on all you want that it's not a police state but you can't deny the fact that it's a banana republic.

czx

looney pos

nesf

And this thread has become a waste of everyone's time. Locked.