Crokagh Park Boards Crit

levitronix

Wondering will i be allowed to oraganise a friendly crit for friday 30/12/11

Anyone any think this might be a good idea will we need buy off from the park ?

morana

levitronix wrote: »

Wondering will i be allowed to oraganise a friendly crit for friday 30/12/11

Anyone any think this might be a good idea will we need buy off from the park ?

i see no reason why not..just get all you ducks in a line!
Contact heather in the office to let her know what your plans are..race approved.. a non-open race I assume so no need for a commissaire unless you want to iorganise an open race?

Beasty

Participants would presumably require a racing licence - do the CI ones run for the calendar year morana? What about the "5 club" rule - presumably if not an open race this would apply?

Lumen

Aside from stuff you'd expect from CI affiliated events, are there any bye-laws or other regs governing this facility?

Last time I went (weekend before last) there were no signs up. Not sure what the signs would say, mind.

It is an incredibly safe facility, loads of lovely run off everywhere. You'd have to be some kind of plank to have an accident there.

(these words may come to haunt me)

Beasty

... I think he's gone scurrying for the rule book ...;)

I suspect there is an insurance issue though (I'd be delighted to be wrong on this) - we've deliberately shied away from arranging "proper" races on boards and stuck to TTs, where everyone participates at their own risk (although those with licences could probably reasonably consider such TTs as training anyway - I certainly would)

As soon as we get into the "organised race" field we need to consider insurance which I presume would only come with something arranged by an official body, such as a CI affiliated club or the IVCA

One thing I would say - if anyone wants to "arrange" any "unofficial" race of this nature, I am pretty certain the powers that be at Boards would not allow them to associate the Boards name with it

Captain Havoc

Beasty wrote: »

... I think he's gone scurrying for the rule book ...;)

I suspect there is an insurance issue though (I'd be delighted to be wrong on this) - we've deliberately shied away from arranging "proper" races on boards and stuck to TTs, where everyone participates at their own risk (although those with licences could probably reasonably consider such TTs as training anyway - I certainly would)

As soon as we get into the "organised race" field we need to consider insurance which I presume would only come with something arranged by an official body, such as a CI affiliated club or the IVCA

One thing I would say - if anyone wants to "arrange" any "unofficial" race of this nature, I am pretty certain the powers that be at Boards would not allow them to associate the Boards name with it

I'm sure we could organise a fast paced training session imitating a racing environment.

Beasty

Captain Havoc wrote: »

I'm sure we could organise a fast paced training session imitating a racing environment.

As it's effectively "closed roads" with presumably no 3rd parties being put at risk, I'm guessing you could call it a race, but you would require the permission of the landowners, and I suspect everyone would be doing it at their own risk (ie if it's an "unofficial" race the CI and IVCA insurance policies would not cover it)

Anyway, let's see what morana comes up with ...

morana

I will have a look at the regs and see what we can do.

ROK ON

Is this not the same from an insurance point of view as the upcoming season of Hamper Races.
From what I can see, some hamper races are open to all comers for the price of a 1 day licence. IIRC some don't even require CI or IVCA membership?
This is theoretically safer in that it is not on the open road.

There is no reason that I am aware of that any interested person cannot run an unofficial race that is uninsured as long as the participants are made filly aware of this fact (and what it means) and that it is not on an open road and thus likely to fall foul of the law.

Afaik, if permission from landowner is secured then it is nobody elses business. Now to be fair, most landowners will require that an event has insurance.

levitronix

thats what i had in mind just a casual race, non ci event
just a bunch of friends turning up for a training session / fun race

Beasty

ROK ON wrote: »

Is this not the same from an insurance point of view as the upcoming season of Hamper Races.
From what I can see, some hamper races are open to all comers for the price of a 1 day licence. IIRC some don't even require CI or IVCA membership?

The 3 I am aware of (Dublin Wheelers, Obelisk Wheelers and Swords) will be by invitation, restricted by the 5 club rule, with racing licences required

morana

ROK ON wrote: »

. IIRC some don't even require CI or IVCA membership?

If this is the case then the race is an unapproved event and therefore any CI members participating would not be covered.

I checked the regs and it would have to be run as a club race to avail of the insurance. AFAIK the booking of the circuit is to be done thru the office. CI are responsible for the circuit and its use.

I am not too sure if the 5 club regulation still stands. There is a concept of a non-open event which can cater for all members with the appropriate licence. These events can only take place on certain days to avoid ravens holding a non-open race on the day swords are holding the SGP.

So i dont think it can be done outside the regs of CI and be covered. IF a group want to meetup and get on there it would be at your own risk and it could be booked by youth commission or somebody else on that day.

Boards could setup an association which is made up of 6 members of CI and an affilation fee is paid. They could then hold events but again the correct licence would be needed to be covered.

I am fairly sure IVCA licences wont be recognised....for the moment

I will get some definite info out about booking the circuit etc.

morana

levitronix wrote: »

thats what i had in mind just a casual race, non ci event
just a bunch of friends turning up for a training session / fun race

as a training session you are ok

ROK ON

Thanks MoranA.

The event I am referring to is run by a leading CC with considerable experience in putting on important races in the annual calendar.

Fwiw I have an opinion that insurance is overstated. I think participants in all sports should take personal responsibilities vis a vis the risks that they expose themselves to.

Levitronix. I think you should be commended for trying to put on an event. I hope it is a success. I have no skill speed or fitness, but despite that I would love to attend.

Best of luck.

chakattack

levitronix wrote: »

thats what i had in mind just a casual race, non ci event
just a bunch of friends turning up for a training session / fun race

This is off the original topic but....

Could it be used by clubs for group training? I'm not talking about a race but a good hard sunday group ride and covered by the usual cover for training?

chakattack

ROK ON wrote: »

I have no skill

Despite some serious skills (the bare minimum on my part ...) at the mondello this year but there were still a few broken bones and nasty crashes so a semi open crit for all comers could be lethal....

Anyone around the phoenix park the day lance went for a spin?

We all take a risk everytime we got for a spin or to race but I wouldn't want to rely on someone taking "personal responsibility" for breaking my teeth.

Zippe

Hey,
Is it just for the Dublin and surrounding clubs ? I'm up there for new year and would like to take part,

Cheers zip,

Beasty

ROK ON wrote: »

Fwiw I have an opinion that insurance is overstated. I think participants in all sports should take personal responsibilities vis a vis the risks that they expose themselves to.

From a personal perspective the insurance to cover the risks I expose myself to does not particularly concern me. I very rarely take "optional" insurance - just really house contents and all risk on the car

However the most important thing to me is the 3rd party cover for risks I expose others to. As alluded to above this may be less of a concern on a closed circuit (where accidents involving motor vehicles should not be an issue), although even then I would like to think there is something to cover other racers should I be the cause of an accident (or where there may genuinely be no individual racer who is at fault)

Slideshowbob

At the end of the day for any race event to be covered by CI insurances wouldn't the event have to be organised by a CI affiliated club/race organiser?? Would a commissaire also need to be involved?

Beasty

Slideshowbob wrote: »

At the end of the day for any race event to be covered by CI insurances wouldn't the event have to be organised by a CI affiliated club/race organiser??

See post 12 above;)

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Would a commissaire also need to be involved?

See post 2 above;)

victorcarrera

I understand from the following
Park By Laws
http://parks.southdublin.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=100&Itemid=162

FOR THE CONTROL AND REGULATION OF THE USE OF PARKS, OPEN SPACES AND RECREATIONAL PLAYING GROUNDS OWNED, CONTROLLED BY, OR IN THE CHARGE OF SOUTH DUBLIN COUNTY COUNCIL WHETHER OPEN OR ENCLOSED.

and
Planning Permission for cycle track
http://www.sdublincoco.ie/index.aspx?pageid=939&pid=18243

The track would provide an additional facility and is hoped will attract many visitors to that part of the park, particularly tourists at the adjacent Caravan Park.
In addition to Cycle Racing, the track can be used for leisure cycling and as an additional walking route.
The facility could also be used as a Traffic School for teaching young children with particular emphasis on safety and best practice.

that this is a public facility and is governed by the same By Laws as the public playing pitches or enclosed play areas.
Therefore unless the facility has been leased to another party, no cycling club or organisation has any civil powers or control over its use. Bylaws are implemented by employees of SDCC but you may be obliged to apply for a license for exclusive event use as applies to the football pitches.
I might have occasion to look into the ownership and use of this facility and Sundrive track next year in more detail but in the meantime (unless I have missed something) I think SDCC are the beneficial owners. If so there is no insurance requirement otherwise the kids in the playground and the babies in the prams would need it too.

Anyhow take it easy out there until this one is changed.
3.3 The speed limit for all authorised vehicles in a park shall be ten miles per hour.

Lumen

Beasty wrote: »

However the most important thing to me is the 3rd party cover for risks I expose others to. As alluded to above this may be less of a concern on a closed circuit (where accidents involving motor vehicles should not be an issue), although even then I would like to think there is something to cover other racers should I be the cause of an accident (or where there may genuinely be no individual racer who is at fault)

IANAL but I would bet money on there being sod all chance of taking a successful legal action against a fellow racer in the case of an accident. The more likely case is being sued by an uninvolved third party who wanders/cycles on to the track. You'd need marshalls.

Will there be triathletes? :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaQJB_bWA4c

morana

Lumen wrote: »

IANAL but I would bet money on there being sod all chance of taking a successful legal action against a fellow racer in the case of an accident. The more likely case is being sued by an uninvolved third party who wanders/cycles on to the track. You'd need marshalls.

Will there be triathletes? :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaQJB_bWA4c

he made a meal of it...Went down for the cameras.

dubmess

When I organised the Cycle Messenger World Championships in 2007 in Phoenix Park I had to jump through all these hoops as someone with no experience as well.

After DCC told us to sling our hook in no uncertain manner we went to the OPW to beg for some space in the Park. Once we had a safety plan, €2.6million public liability insurance (nowhere near as expensive as you may think), and had St. John's ambulance down then they gave us the go-ahead. It took a hell of a lot of planning but that was for a 2-day event with 450 participants, I'm sure for a one off smaller event it wouldn't be as gruesome

All the info is out there, if someone like me can do it then anyone can.

Oh, and no stinking licenses required

morana

victorcarrera wrote: »

I understand from the following
Park By Laws
http://parks.southdublin.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=100&Itemid=162

and
Planning Permission for cycle track
http://www.sdublincoco.ie/index.aspx?pageid=939&pid=18243


that this is a public facility and is governed by the same By Laws as the public playing pitches or enclosed play areas.
Therefore unless the facility has been leased to another party, no cycling club or organisation has any civil powers or control over its use. Bylaws are implemented by employees of SDCC but you may be obliged to apply for a license for exclusive event use as applies to the football pitches.
I might have occasion to look into the ownership and use of this facility and Sundrive track next year in more detail but in the meantime (unless I have missed something) I think SDCC are the beneficial owners. If so there is no insurance requirement otherwise the kids in the playground and the babies in the prams would need it too.

Anyhow take it easy out there until this one is changed.
3.3 The speed limit for all authorised vehicles in a park shall be ten miles per hour.

It will be great to see all the cycling organisations using this facility even though we took the lead on it securing the grant, bridging loan etc.

daragh_

If this doesn't come together would anyone be interested in another Hill Climb TT around the same time? Or even before Xmas?

Fastest time has to cycle home with a Turkey.
Fastest wearing a Boards Jersey gets a box of Choc Mallows.

levitronix

Weather permitting there will a few there for a friendly bash , call it what you want a fast training sprin with a sprint at the end

victorcarrera

morana wrote: »

It will be great to see all the cycling organisations using this facility even though we took the lead on it securing the grant, bridging loan etc.

Who are we?
The building contractor I presume. If so, as with any grant aided project on public property, the contractor goes in, does the job and gets out. Otherwise we could end up with another situation like the motorway toll fiasco whereby the contractor is allowed to stay on and charge the public what they like to use the service ad infinitum. (Not sure about this, but from what I hear, it might already be the case with Sundrive Track, that a license issued by a limited company and a charge, to use a grant aided public facility)
I think the parks departments already have a good system in place for the casual use and exclusive rental of the football pitches that would suffice.

Overall I think these new track/BMX facilities are great for cycling and wish them well but I wonder will the existing traditional disciplines of Road Racing and Time Trialling suffer in the long term.

morana

victorcarrera wrote: »

Who are we?
The building contractor I presume. If so, as with any grant aided project on public property, the contractor goes in, does the job and gets out. Otherwise we could end up with another situation like the motorway toll fiasco whereby the contractor is allowed to stay on and charge the public what they like to use the service ad infinitum. (Not sure about this, but from what I hear, it might already be the case with Sundrive Track, that a license issued by a limited company and a charge, to use a grant aided public facility)
I think the parks departments already have a good system in place for the casual use and exclusive rental of the football pitches that would suffice.

Overall I think these new track/BMX facilities are great for cycling and wish them well but I wonder will the existing traditional disciplines of Road Racing and Time Trialling suffer in the long term.

sorry victor We are Cycling Ireland! I thought you knew me. We were able to advance the good work started by Mick Lawless secure the the DAST grant finance the bridging loan etc. The contractor was a contractor arranged by SDCC but paid by us. We also arranged an independent reviewer to check the progress at key stages of the build.

Hopefully there wont be any tolls on there!!!!!

Lumen

victorcarrera wrote: »

Overall I think these new track/BMX facilities are great for cycling and wish them well but I wonder will the existing traditional disciplines of Road Racing and Time Trialling suffer in the long term.

It is conceivable that if a sufficient number of large road-like tracks were built an argument could be made to ban road racing, but it would take a very brave person to tell Sean Kelly that the Ras should be run on a BMX track.

morana

Lumen wrote: »

It is conceivable that if a sufficient number of large road-like tracks were built an argument could be made to ban road racing, but it would take a very brave person to tell Sean Kelly that the Ras should be run on a BMX track.

now theres a thought a cyclo cross in ratoath incorporating the BMX track....plenty of fields beside it!!!

victorcarrera

@morana I should have remembered that . In that case well done to all involved.
@lumen Although there are more people cycling now than in recent history there are also many more disciplines to choose from.
Road Racing
Time Trials
MTB and Downhill
Track Racing
Cross Racing
BMX

EG: I would guess that BMX, Track and MTB are more popular with the younger/beginner rider, with the more established riders preferring the others.
Will there be enough support for individual events when all these facilities are up and running? Soon there will be three tracks in south Dublin and anybody know what is the plan for Sundrive when the new indoor track opens?

Beasty

victorcarrera wrote: »

Will there be enough support for individual events when all these facilities are up and running? Soon there will be three tracks in south Dublin and anybody know what is the plan for Sundrive when the new indoor track opens?

The new track is primarily aimed at training for elite cyclists, saving money from sending them overseas for indoor training

AFAIK, it will be business as usual at Sundrive, although I personally hope all the championships will move indoors when the new track opens. I also hope it will be available for general use (hire by clubs, race nights etc). Sundrive is a "summer" facility, but a lot of investment has gone into it, and given the growth in track riding in recent times I would anticipate there is sufficient to keep both facilities busy. My only concern is whether there are sufficient coaching staff available, although once up and running it may be that the rules of supply and demand take care of this

morana

Beasty wrote: »

The new track is primarily aimed at training for elite cyclists, saving money from sending them overseas for indoor training

AFAIK, it will be business as usual at Sundrive, although I personally hope all the championships will move indoors when the new track opens. I also hope it will be available for general use (hire by clubs, race nights etc). Sundrive is a "summer" facility, but a lot of investment has gone into it, and given the growth in track riding in recent times I would anticipate there is sufficient to keep both facilities busy. My only concern is whether there are sufficient coaching staff available, although once up and running it may be that the rules of supply and demand take care of this

It will be very competitively priced so much so that even a man of your meagre means will be able to hire it for an hour or 2. Our goal is to have as much use as possible. The elites should be training when we are working. I hope Sundrive continues to improve but hopefully all champs will move to the indoor facility but that is a decision for the Track Commission.

We see the Track as something that will improve riders and help them develop the necessary skills for road and TT so if its successfull then we should see more bennetts, downeys, horgans coming thru on a more regular basis.

Regarding the coaching aspect we can use the BC cycling track coaching courses to train up our own coaches so we should be able to get a number of additional coaches soon. Sorry for going OT

Beasty

morana wrote: »

It will be very competitively priced so much so that even a man of your meagre means will be able to hire it for an hour or 2.

That may mean nobody else gets a look in