Graduate Jobs- Leaving Cert Points

daveyid89

Hey,

Just wondering about the requirements of graduate progs for alot of companies in Ireland. Many of them ask for 400+ LC points as well as your degree, etc.

Now here is my problem; I have just 395 points in my LC, but I also have a 2:1 Bachelors degree and a 2:1 Masters degree, which I would assume cancels out my poor showing in the LC.

I am getting little success on the jobs front as many positions have applicants with more work exp than myself. So my best bet at the moment is a graduate prog or a grad friendly job.

Now the graduate jobs with major companies take hours to fill out, and I usually fill out the applications that require the 400, 450 LC points anyway (and cite my masters, as a reason to look past my low LC points). Is there a point in me even applying to those positions? Does my application get automatically ignored because my LC points are so low?

What does everyone else think? Is it worth filling out those job apps or should I just focus on ones that don't dwell on the LC? (I know its a stupid problem to be facing but I find it very annoying to be spending hours on an application for it only to be auto discarded because I don't meet that silly criteria).

Mr. Loverman

First of all, "just" 395 points is not a bad leaving cert.

Secondly, I would be surprised if the HR people really give a damn or more importantly actually look for evidence of your leaving cert points if you can provide them with a 2:1 degree and a 2:1 masters.

I would be inclined to add the extra 5 points to your leaving cert so you are above the 400 mark. I doubt any HR person will use a calculator to double check you definitely have 400 points rather than 395 points. Nor would they care. It's an irrelevant exam.

c0rk3r

Just put 425 down, no ones going to check

Mrs OBumble

c0rk3r wrote: »

Just put 425 down, no ones going to check

Bad, bad advice: that simply gives them an excuse to fire you on the spot for lying in the application. And that excuse will be there for the whole time you're with the company, just in case they ever need it.


Apply anyway, and tell the truth. You have no way of knowing if it's a waste of time or not.

tenchi-fan

Agreed, that's terrible advice about lying about the number of points.

I don't think you're wasting your time applying for jobs even though you don't have enough LC points. I always look at the requirements as a wish list.

Esse85

I doubt the lack of 5 extra points in your LC is the reason your not getting any success with regard to applying for jobs. Might as well tell the truth as employers are looking for employees they can trust.

daveyid89

I don't think I would lie because I am sure that they will require a transcript of my results if they were to offer me a position.

I've only seen two or three that actually ask for it but with the graduate programmes it takes ages to apply they take ages to get back to you, if they get back at all. (was offered an interview with one this week that I applied for over two months ago, was the first I heard back from them at all).

Again, alot of the graduate positions I applied for are still open to applicants so I'm obviously not gonna hear a yes or a no yet, but was just wondering if it was a big deal or not. Thanks for the advice.

FloatingVoter

To me - its a sign that you blossomed academically at college. Its not like you went from a 600+ point LC to a 2:2 degree. You're sloping upwards.
As per the above advice, do not lie. It gives them an excuse to "downsize" you later.

doolox

... any company that uses automated selection rigidly set to reject <400 point candidates regardless of their later performance in college is not a company worth fighting to get into.

I doubt they would reject an application for the sake of 5 points.

caesar

I'm sure companies have their reasons for asking but I don't understand it in terms of one’s ability to do a job, granted the same could be said in the case of a 1.1 student v 2.1 student etc. It would be one thing if they asked for specific results in a subject area that was related to the job. That said, these sort of companies have so many applications that they need to use a number of cut-off metrics.

I guess the answer to your question depends on your industry and career goals. Personally, I have tended to stay away from companies who ask about LC points because I know they’re not my type of organisation, particularly if they were to cut me out solely on the basis of LC points.

I have also stayed away from graduate programmes for the most part because I'm looking to start in the new year and most grad programmes begin in September with some starting in June/July. Also, you have to assess the quality of the programmes at hand and not just apply for the sake of it. Of course, this all depends on how the jobs situation is in the industry you’re going into i.e. how choosy you can afford to be. As for application forms, I'm finding the whole recruitment process incredibly inefficient from a job seekers perspective.

By the way don't lie, it might come back to bite you. It also shows a lack of integrity if you lie. If a programme states a requirement, I would imagine you are cut off if you don’t meet it. However, if it's not clear why don’t you ring the HR department and ask?

Mister Dread

doolox wrote: »

... any company that uses automated selection rigidly set to reject <400 point candidates regardless of their later performance in college is not a company worth fighting to get into.

I doubt they would reject an application for the sake of 5 points.

So thats every invesment bank in the world ruled out.

The reason top companies use this strategy is because it gives a better indication of ability than trying to compare different mickey mouse degrees from different universities.

daveyid89

Couldn't get by the first page of a particular job app today, looking for 500 points or cant get onto the next page. Considered for a moment whether it would be worth contacting them, but will just continue to look elsewhere.

Mister Dread wrote: »

So thats every invesment bank in the world ruled out.

The reason top companies use this strategy is because it gives a better indication of ability than trying to compare different mickey mouse degrees from different universities.

Do the various competency based questions not allow enough differentiation for the employers to work with? And don't many companies have a ranking system for different colleges?

Mister Dread

UK banks know their own universities but it gets a bit ropey when you have a degree from an non UK university. They get tens of thousands of applications for graduate jobs so it is a case of crude filtering.

7Sins

caesar wrote: »

I guess the answer to your question depends on your industry and career goals. Personally, I have tended to stay away from companies who ask about LC points because I know they’re not my type of organisation, particularly if they were to cut me out solely on the basis of LC points.

I second that, and bump it up to 400.

headmaster

A small piece of advice for potential job seekers, get out of facebook. I can assure you it will be worth it, you would be surprised how many employers look up guys and gals on this medium, usually what they find can go against the job seeker. Young people leave themselves wide open on this and it's out there for anyone, it's worth remembering and is a hell of a lot more important than you might think. Take my word on it

Myerz

I don't understand why some companies have such high points requirements. Paddy Power graduate programme has a 450 point requirement?

Yet what they are looking most for is BIS graduates and to get into the best BIS courses in the country the point requirement is much lower. 390 in UCC, regarded the best BIS course in Ireland.

So if a person graduates with honours and goes on to do a masters they still can't apply if they have under 450? very strange.

I'd imagine well over half of economics, computer science and business graduates have lower than the 450 treshold.

Paddy Power are seeming to eliminate plenty of talented graduates. I'd imagine most people over 450 are Doctors and Engineers?

But what do I know...

Mister Dread

The standard of college graduates is pretty woeful these days. Every course differs but you get people coming out with firsts and 2.1s who are not very bright. The leaving cert has suffered grade inflation but you can't bull**** your way through it. Paddy power are looking for the top 20% and this is one proven way to achieve this.

Myerz

Mister Dread wrote: »

The standard of college graduates is pretty woeful these days. Every course differs but you get people coming out with firsts and 2.1s who are not very bright. The leaving cert has suffered grade inflation but you can't bull**** your way through it. Paddy power are looking for the top 20% and this is one proven way to achieve this.

It's a fairly irrelative exam if you ask me? Someone can study day in day out and manage to get 450, and could still manage to be socially and logically poor plus some have subjects totally oblivious to the line of work.

Anyway I just find it strange they let so much graduates off their radar and in a lot of cases graduates who graduated top of the class. Can't get around why its 450. I'd imagine 75% of graduates they are looking for are stopped at this leaving cert requirement. insane.

maglite

Myerz wrote: »

I don't understand why some companies have such high points requirements. Paddy Power graduate programme has a 450 point requirement?

Yet what they are looking most for is BIS graduates

Its an easy metric, I have 300 people applying to me and out of those 100 have 1.1 degrees and Masters. So I bring forward these 100. Now 100 is still too many to interview, so if I limit it to 450 LC points I cut down to 30 candidates. I now interview these.

The entry requirements for college are demand not competency based. UCC BIS was a lot higher.

floorpie

Mister Dread wrote: »

The standard of college graduates is pretty woeful these days. Every course differs but you get people coming out with firsts and 2.1s who are not very bright. The leaving cert has suffered grade inflation but you can't bull**** your way through it. Paddy power are looking for the top 20% and this is one proven way to achieve this.

You're absolute right that there are not-so-smart people who get II 1's, and even firsts, but the very same can be said for people getting 500+ points on the LC (you can't bull**** your way through college in the very same way that you can't through the LC, you have to have at least a modicum of dedication to get an average mark). University is the same as the LC in the sense that anybody can scrape by, or even do well, without being very clever. But it's a leveler in the sense that the curriculums aren't standard, as in the LC, and people who have an affinity for an area can prove it via a non-standard performance in certain areas, or via extra curricular research/projects/internships etc etc.

Using LC results as a metric for hiring good candidates is probably one of the silliest things i've ever heard. I'm probably biased though, as i'm someone who got something like 100 points in the LC twice through, let's say, immaturity, before copping on and doing well in it and then going on to get a degree and two masters. My initial failures say nothing about me except, at worst, that i was immature as a teenager (big shocker).

Mr. Loverman

Something I'm learning as I get older (I'm 33 now) is that most employers don't actually want really smart employees. They want someone who will show up, do whatever they're told to do, not cause any trouble, and not quit when the going gets tough.

Being able to complete a degree suggests the person can probably show up and not quit when the going gets tough, so that's about 50% of a job's requirements.

x43r0

Mister Dread wrote: »

UK banks know their own universities but it gets a bit ropey when you have a degree from an non UK university. They get tens of thousands of applications for graduate jobs so it is a case of crude filtering.

Second this.

I help out with the recruitment drive in work now and again (UK branch of an Investment Bank) and they very much have preferred Universities that they go back to year upon year. In Ireland they specifically target only one of the NUI's because they've built a relationship over time by receiving graduates and interns from there who they have been happy with so they stuck with what they saw as a winner and now don't look at the other Uni's in Ireland.

To OP I would say use your own discretion with regards to bumping your points to 400. From my own experience, when I went through the screening process for the graduate program here it was seriously extensive - Took about 6-8 weeks to complete. But I was never asked for any proof of leaving cert results, just college grades. Obviously that's not to say that you won't be checked but just to give a point of view from someone who has gone through the figurative body cavity search they do to new hires.

ninebeanrows

I will say this once, damn my D2 in English!

Im ruined for life.

stuck with 435pts:(

I should have 460 i tells you!

Sheeps

Most of the requirements for leaving cert points are put there by agents who don't have a clue. If you were to apply directly for the job with out the agent you probably wouldn't even be asked about your leaving cert.

JoePie

Just mention you completed your LC on your CV.

All mine says is what school I went to, then "Completed [no. of honours subjects] honours subjects including [any high grade you got] in [subject] X, Y and Z."

Got me loads of interviews for companies looking fro 400+ pointsd and that kind of thing. I also didn't mention what grade I got in my degree or Masters.

My assumption with those companies that ask for X amount of points is so that they can scare off chancers, or only have proper over-achievers think they have a better chance so that they can pick the best of the best.

starlit

That's probably true. I can't see why points should have any relevance to being hired unless they are looking for people with certain grades in certain subjects understandable if in Maths or Science perhaps for those in Science and Maths related career fields. Irish for the Gardai and teaching.

You still need a college qualification behind you if you wish to become a garda and if you wish to go the back door of medicine. Understandable that the likes of Law, Medicine and science fields require high points but the likes of business doesn't so can't see why having high points should be a factor in being hired for any job that courses for those jobs didn't need high points. Doesn't balance out really from that point of view.

The points are driven up by the popularity of a course and increase points for those courses that are popular. So students try to achieve more than they can by getting into these courses that require high points thus they achieving these high points. Pure and utter points inflation really. The amount of points for a course or popular course doesn't determine how easy or hard a course is. It can sometimes be a false assumption. A course might be worth 100 points and be more difficult than a course requiring 400 points.

If anyone gets anything between 300 to 499 should be proud that they did so well. I think getting more than that can be a too high an expectation great if they get more than 500 but is it a realistic achievement for them??

My aim was to get within 300 and I did I got more than I achieved but if I got 400+ I be shocked, I could have achieved it but it wouldn't been realistic for me to have achieved it! I achieved honours in all my college courses and could achieve any award in them what I got was realistic but could have been a better result just by a few percentages, it happens.

In the end of the day its the college qualification will matter most surely those that achieve a certain requirement by achieving say a second class honours be the minimum requirement it be more fair but I suppose if they want to short list the amount of people they interview they take the easy way out with the maximum points that candidates should have achieved. There are other means to reduce the short list and by means of competency and psychometric testing.

Surely meeting the requirements of the job spec with relevant qualifications and work experience and meeting the required criteria by competency interviews that be enough to reduce the number that they interview?

It's crazy that they limit the amount of potential candidates to continue with the application just down to the fact they didn't achieve certain number of points in the LC. It's silly and an unsystematic way of hiring.

The leaving cert points is not by any means a reflection of how good a student is, could take 'till they are in college or working before they achieve that reflection of being an asset to a company.

I steer clear of companies that want you to meet LC requirements. If they ask for college qualification requirements like qualification, grades and awards that should be adequate for them.

More than 400 or 500 is ridiculous, most people get between 300 to 499 and many of which can achieve honour degrees even a first. So can't see why they should be left out of the loop just cause of their points. Their degree should be taking into account more so.

Those who only have a pass degree are more at a disadvantage compared to those who got a 2:2 or a 2:1 but no candidate should be discredited once they achieved an honour in their degree should be enough for the employer to show that they can achieve something and have studied and worked hard. Some courses are harder than others so achieving firsts can be difficult enough.

So why aren't those who achieve honour degrees not given the chance to complete some graduate programmes or be hired by companies just cause they didn't get the recommended point requirements set out by companies is just not realistic in this day and age. More like employers taking the easy option.

Mister Dread

Such a whine. The big companies in the UK used to take in graduates with average a levels. By studying the performance of their graduates over years they found out that the best measure of performance was second level results and not third level. This has resulted in getting better able graduates and saving money on recruitment at the expense of having average joes moaning about how unfair life is on the net.

Posy

How do I prove what I got in the Leaving Cert?
I've been in the same job nearly 10 years and am looking for a fresh start in 2012.. how do I get a transcript of my results.. is it easy to get a transcript of your college degree too? I don't even remember my student number at this stage!

Gael23

Sorry for digging up such an old thread but im in this exact position so didnt want to start a new one.
I got 395 in my LC and most job specs that im interested in specify 400 points and a certain grade of degree. Just seems a shame to be automatically discounted by 5 points so its very tempting to bump it up to 400, but not 425 as someone else suggested. After all, academics only get the interview and dont always secure a position.
I did 6 out of 7 subjects at higher level but did badly in one of them, hence the points. I would like opportunity to show an employer that there is more to me than my leaving cert grades.

Mr. Loverman

ryanf1 wrote: »

I got 395 in my LC and most job specs that im interested in specify 400 points and a certain grade of degree.

Do you have the degree grade specified in the advert?

If so I would find it hard to imagine they will reject your application because you "only" got 395 points.

What is your exact qualification?

Gael23

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Do you have the degree grade specified in the advert?

If so I would find it hard to imagine they will reject your application because you "only" got 395 points.

What is your exact qualification?

I'm doing accounting. I hope to have either a2.2 or 2.1 by the time I graduate next year.