Question from 6th Class Student - Did Irish soldiers in WW1 know about the rising?

Trotter

Hi all,

I'm a primary teacher and one of my 6th class students had a really good question the other day that I promised I'd do some checking up on.

We were talking about the Irish men that joined the army during WW1. His question was, would any of the Irish soldiers in the trenches in 1916 have known about the rising in Dublin, and as opinions turned in Ireland following the executions after the rising, would that have effected the soldiers actions in Europe?

Also, were any Irish soldiers called from their depots or from active service in Europe to deal with the rising in Dublin?

Great to hear them coming up with questions like that.. If I can make them curious about history, Im 100% happy!

mbiking123

http://viking305.hubpages.com/hub/Irish-history-Shot-in-India-for-Irish-Freedom

Might help


James Daly shot for mutiny at Wellington Barracks in Jullundur in India.

The 1st Battalion of the Connaught Rangers was an Irish Regiment in the British Army.
In June 1920 they were stationed in India, at Wellington Barracks in Jullundur. Most of them had fought for England in the First World War.
The mutiny did not occur because of any mistreatment of the men out there in India. It was events in England and Ireland that was to cause the men to protest.
Events in Ireland in 1920. The Black and Tans.
Irish men and women were fighting for their freedom in 1920.The Easter Rising in 1916 failed to free Ireland from British Rule. But sixteen of the Leaders were executed this so outraged the people that many more were encouraged to join the fight for Irish freedom.
The British knew that the ordinary British soldiers and the Royal Irish Constabulary, (the Irish police under the control of of the British Government) were losing control of the Irish War of Independence.
Black and Tans
In England in 1920 there was a problem with many unemployed men who had spent four years in the First World War and were restless and troublesome. They were recruited back into the army and sent to Ireland on 25th March 1920,
The people soon gave them the name of the Black and Tans because their uniforms consisted of a khaki coat with black trousers, boots and cap.
The English papers called it 'organised savagery.'

In India there were rumours about the activities of the Tans In Ireland. Some did not believe them, others thought them exaggerated. The Tans became more vicious as the months went by. When some of them were ambushed they retaliated, often shooting indiscriminately into the crowd. They had the power to enter and search any house they felt were hiding the rebels.
They burnt down houses of known sympathisers. The people were often bullied in the hope that they would fight back giving the Tans an excuse to shoot them. Their activities did not go unnoticed in the English press. And soon the papers, including The Times, let the English people know what was going on. The Daily News called it 'organised savagery.'



Memorial Stone in Glasnevin Cemetary Dublin Ireland


In memory of all those Irish soldiers who died because of the Irish Mutiny in India in 1920



King George V also protested to the Prime Minister

George V also protested to the Prime Minister about how the Irish people were being treated.
As the men of the Rangers in India received more letters and newspapers from home they began to realise that their own families were in danger from the Black and Tans, while they were out there helping the British Government suppress those who wanted independence for India.
None of the Irish regiments in the British Army were stationed in Ireland for obvious reasons.


As they arrived, a guard on duty dropped his weapon and joined them.

On the morning of June 28th 1920, four men presented themselves at the guardroom and refused to continue serving as British soldiers as long as their own country was being terrorised by the Black and Tans.......................... etc

Trotter

Excellent stuff.. Thanks a lot!

jonniebgood1

One prominent example is Tom Barry who was in the British army at the time. I am going from memory of his book but I think he was in Mesopotania (Turkey) at the time and when he read about the Irish rising it was his first encounter with Irish nationalism. It was not until he was discharged after the war that he could read more into irish history which obviously led to his role in the war of independence.

jonniebgood1

This might not be 100% what you were asking but we looked at the reaction of Irish soldiers of the British army in India to the war of independence. See link here

cml387

Trotter wrote: »

Hi all,

I'm a primary teacher and one of my 6th class students had a really good question the other day that I promised I'd do some checking up on.

We were talking about the Irish men that joined the army during WW1. His question was, would any of the Irish soldiers in the trenches in 1916 have known about the rising in Dublin, and as opinions turned in Ireland following the executions after the rising, would that have effected the soldiers actions in Europe?

Also, were any Irish soldiers called from their depots or from active service in Europe to deal with the rising in Dublin?

Great to hear them coming up with questions like that.. If I can make them curious about history, Im 100% happy!

What a brilliant question. You must be doing something right if your teaching gets such engagement.

The answer would be a lot more difficult. Men fighting have loyalty vaguely to their cause but more strongly to their comrades.

On the whole the Irish Battalions kept fighting on the British side because they were fighting individual battles with friends to stay alive and not for "the empire" or whatever.

As has been pointed out there were exceptions,but not the norm.

Trotter

cml387 wrote: »

What a brilliant question. You must be doing something right if your teaching gets such engagement.

Thanks! Ive passed on what I was told by my Grandfather about his father and grandfather who fought in WW1.. that basically they joined the army for a regular wage, because their peers were joining, and some out of a sense of adventure. With mass poverty the norm, some seemingly saw it as an escape. Clearly many had no clue what they were getting into.

mbiking123

James Connolly (1868 - 1916)
'He spent seven years in the army serving most of that time in Ireland; first in Cork and later in Dublin. While serving there he witnessed, first hand, the mistreatment of the Irish people by the British army and the ruthless landlords they were there to protect. In 1889, having seen enough he deserted the army and returned to Scotland. What he experienced during his service in Ireland was to have a major influence on the rest of his life. '

http://www.irishfreedom.net/Fenian%20graves/James%20Connelly/James%20Connelly.htm

Not want you wanted but ex british army

johnny_doyle

Trotter wrote: »

We were talking about the Irish men that joined the army during WW1. His question was, would any of the Irish soldiers in the trenches in 1916 have known about the rising in Dublin, and as opinions turned in Ireland following the executions after the rising, would that have effected the soldiers actions in Europe?

Also, were any Irish soldiers called from their depots or from active service in Europe to deal with the rising in Dublin?

nothing to do with Ireland, the Easter Rising, WW1 etc is ever really a simple, clear cut definitive answer.

Irish soldiers were called from their depots in Ireland to deal with the Rising. English soldiers (Sherwood Foresters/Notts & Derby Regiment were called from their depots in England to deal with the Rising. No troops were withdrawn from the trenches or from European depots or any other theatre. Irish regiments in the trenches were viewed with some suspicion for a while and there is an instance of German troops taunting Irish troops re the Rising with signs above trenches.

It is unlikely that any of the Irish soldiers in the trenches knew any details about the Rising beforehand. Some will have been involved in training Volunteers before the outbreak of WW1, some would have been involved in selling their rifles while on leave and of course many were Volunteers before John Redmond's speech so had an interest in "Home Rule". Tom Kettle's phrase may well sum up some of the serving nationalists viewpoint (though most weren't officers of course)

'These men (the 1916 leaders) will go down in history as heroes and martyrs; and I will go down - if I go down at all - as a bloody British officer.'

Lt Gerald Neilan, Royal Dublin Fusiliers, killed on the first day of the Rising at the Mendicity was of a nationalist persuasion. His brother fought with the rebels. Some RDF soldiers are alleged to have fought with the rebels during the Rising but there is no evidence to confirm this.

Casement's attempts to recruit for the German "Irish Brigade" before the Rising was none too successful with very small numbers. There was no surge of Irish prisoners of war joining this Brigade after the Rising.

While Australian (as well as Canadian, New Zealand and South African) soldiers fought against the rebels in the Rising, there are examples of Australian soldiers who deserted and fought with the IRA (e.g. James O'Gorman, Tipperary). Archbishop Mannix organised a St Patrick's Day parade in Melbourne in 1920 with 14 Australian Victoria Cross winners marching against British activities in Ireland. A very powerful statement at the time and only a short while before the Connaught Rangers mutiny.

http://www.anzacsite.gov.au/5environment/vc/zoom/hamilton_hamilton2.html

Whilst called the Sinn Fein Rising by the press in 1916, SF had little to do with the Rising. Arthur Griffiths is reputed to have stated "Sinn Fein did not make the Rising, but the Rising made Sinn Fein". The Rising effectively moved SF from a home rule/monarchist party to an independence/republican party.

The info re the Connaught Rangers Mutiny doesn't really relate to your original question ie the Easter Rising but obviously is a later result of it and other actions. The last mutineer still resting in India is an English rather than Irish soldier (Private John Miranda). Other English soldiers took part in the mutiny e.g Sgt Joseph Woods from Bristol who had served with the Leinsters and was highly decorated. One mutiny/rising that doesn't get much airtime in history lessons is the 1915 Singapore mutiny where mass executions make the Easter Rising executions look tame. Like the Easter Rising, the Germans sent a ship loaded with arms and munitions which didn't make it to it's destination.

There is some evidence to suggest that the Irish made up a higher than usual percentage of those "Shot at Dawn" by the British Army. Don't know if any work has been done to see if this was a post Rising trend or a general trend through the war.

The last man hanged in the 26 counties by the British authorities was an Irishman serving with the Black and Tans. Conversely, the first British soldier killed in the 6 counties "Troubles" was an Irish Catholic from Belfast killed by the RUC. A good number of the Tans were Catholic/Irish.

http://www.historyireland.com/volumes/volume12/issue3/features/?id=113768

I would recommend a scoot around the following :

a) Brendan Lee's website for some names etc re the Easter Rising and the Connaught Rangers mutiny

http://www.irishmedals.org/

b) Corisande's website for elements of the Easter Rising, the Cairo Gang and Bloody Sunday

http://www.dublin-fusiliers.com/

c) Peter Mc's website re the RIC, Tans and Auxiliaries

http://irishconstabulary.com/forums/24/The-Auxiliary-Division#.TtF7RLKImU8

and obviously there are lots of good books (and even a comic style book for younger readers).

http://www.nli.ie/1916/biblio.html

The 1916 Rebellion Handbook is a must have reference for anyone with an interest in the Rising.

Although the Easter Rising, Connaught Mutiny etc have resulted in an independent republic, the Union Flag still retains the "Irish" Cross of St Patrick added as a result of the 1801 Act of Union.

The Indian flag adopted after their independence was influenced by the tri -colour flown by the Connaught Rangers during the mutiny.

Manic Moran

Pure speculation on my part, but since my understanding is that as most Irish people didn't particularly support the rising at the time, and more took exception to the after-the-fact actions by the British, it seems reasonable that most of the Irish troops who obviously had little issue with fighting for the King, would not have cared much even if they had known about it.

johnny_doyle

fairly certain that an Irish soldier with family at home would have cared about the Rising and it's possible impact on people, property etc. (be they from a unionist, nationalist or ambivalent viewpoint) but most would probably not have joined in had they been in Ireland at the time of the Rising.

There appears to have been no attempt by the rebels to cause disaffection amongst Irish soldiers based in Ireland or in the theatres. No troops in theatre mutinied/rebelled. No Irish soldiers used in the suppression of the Rising mutinied/rebelled en masse. Only 2 sailors aboard the Helga refused to join in the bombardment of Dublin.

there were a few Irish soldiers who joined the German Irish Brigade before the Rising. There was no surge to join post Rising.

Many of the Connaught Rangers who mutinied fought throughout the Great War. There was no mutiny in any of the other Irish Regiments.

nothing to do with Ireland, the Easter Rising, WW1 etc is ever really a simple, clear cut definitive answer.

R.Dub.Fusilier

as JD pointed out already irish history is never that simple. mant irish volunteers joined the british army a fought until the end of the war. some brothers even fought on different sides during the easter rising.

Lt Gerald Neilan of the Dublin Fusiliers KIA during the rising had a brother fighting on the other side in the rising. Eamonn Ceannt and Michael Malone had brothers KIA in the Dublin Fusiliers in 1915 and 1917. Ernie O'Malley had a brother in the Dublin fusiliers. Tom Barry , already mentioned, was in the Royal Artillery and was considered a very good soldier. Emmett dalton and Tom Kettle were officers in the Dublin Fusiliers. Martin Doyle of the Munster Fusiliers , who won the Victoria Cross, was involved in the war of independence. the list could go on.

Trotter

So the Dublin fusiliers were actually deployed from their depots in Dublin to put down the rising?!

R.Dub.Fusilier

Trotter wrote: »

So the Dublin fusiliers were actually deployed from their depots in Dublin to put down the rising?!

this link might be of some help. http://www.dublin-fusiliers.com/battaliions/10-batt/campaigns/1916-10th-easter.html

johnny_doyle

one of the Irishmen who fought against the rebels in 1916 was Cadet Ernest Despard, a member of the Officer Training Corps at Trinity College and one of those involved in the defence of Trinity. He was to die in 1917 as a 2nd Lt, Tank Corps :

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=620441

I believe one of his ancestors to be Colonel Edward Marcus Despard, the last man to be sentenced by an English court to be hung, drawn and quartered. He was found guilty of trying to kill the King, treason, being involved with the United Irishmen and the United English organisations etc. He was executed in 1803.

One of the character witnesses at his trial was a certain Horatio Nelson who had served with him in what is now Belize. Having defended an Irish rebel, Nelson's statue become a target for rebel riflemen in 1916 and Joe Christle and compatriots in 1966. The head of this statue is now on display in Pearse St Library/Museum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__3v0eKHB_s


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKK4qYgjCcU&feature=related

R.Dub.Fusilier

Charlotte Despard the sister of Field Marshal Sir John French , the then lord lieutenant of Ireland, exposed and spoke out about british reprisals , murder and arson, which embarrased her brother. is this the same Despards?

johnny_doyle

not related as far as I can tell. She married a Frenchman called Despard. The Queen's Co Despards came to Ireland a long time ago from France.

If I remember correctly, this lady told off Dan Breen for the attempted assassination of her brother. Would have liked to see that conversation play out.