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A good square German Shepard
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26-11-2011 12:16am#1
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Wow that dog could really jump! Impressive looking animal too, it's a shame the way they've gone with the breeding to lower the hind quarters so much - I've seen some pup that can barely walk
. Though I think there was talk of Crufts changing the standard a while back, not sure if anything happened with it to be honest. 0 -
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Though I think there was talk of Crufts changing the standard a while back
Crufts are balls, as are the IKC. Once we started breeding them for looks we lost what the dogs were about. I think it's back to basics now, adopt, accept the mutts, forget about the breeds, it's gone to far.
(This coming from someone who used to attend the dog shows, adore the breeds and what they were bred for)0 -
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,074 Mod ✭✭✭✭
Join Date:Posts: 59003
One of the biggest originators of the breed Von Stephanitz* would be revolving in his grave at the state at some sections of the breed today. The guy and his supporters were looking for the ultimate working dog that could also fit into the family. They picked the best working dogs they could find and even added European wolf into the mix for vigour. Not some inbred mutant with crippled hind quarters. Even a brief foray into the "high end breeders" world is pretty damn scary. Where a hip score of 20+ is considered good. These showers even push the dogs arse down to accentuate the sloped back. Madness. I would reckon to re invigorate the breed today they'd need to remove any sloping backed dogs and aim at hip scores not more than 10 and preferably lower. Mixing in some traditional lines that are out there and dare I say it even to the degree of adding in some controlled european wolf genes on the periphery. Basically go back to square one, but aim more for less prey/work drive.
*his book on the process is out there online http://www.archive.org/stream/derdeutschesc00step#page/34/mode/2up and even if you can't speak German(and chortle at the folks in their sunday best 1890's German stylee
) the pics of various dogs and various breeds as they looked back in the day would give some food for thought on the state of pedigree doggies today. Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,074 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59003
Judging by his book it seems less a sloping back like we see it since and more a less heavy overly long legged and square animal? More like a wolf in some ways. Just a thought given his focus on same in the first few chapters*. Makes sense from a working dog point of view in the purely physical sense as they're extremely well honed by nature physically.Von Stephanitz himself was horrified at the Gsd's at the 1925 sieger show , the majority were big, square , had dental faults as well as lacking temperment , It was Von Stephanitz himself who promoted a sloped back GSD that year .
If one did a Frankenstein and transplanted a good and solid temperament dogs mind into a wolf you would have one helluva strong, fast, damn near untirable and healthy working dog. One that could fairly easily duplicate that jumping guy above.
Doesn't work that way of course. What you get from the mix is a highly strung unpredictable, willful and likely dangerous nutjob that's no good to anyone or any species. The Russians tried to improve the GSD this way and it didn't go so well. The Italian search and rescue had much better success with the Lupo Italiano cross but they're only for trained personnel and not legal in private hands. The Czech wolfdog was successful too(and used in the SAR and security role), but at this stage they're dogs well removed from the first wolf input and are recognised by European KC's. They're on average stronger, faster and with keener senses than a GSD but are a lot more work and still more intractable and unpredictable than an average GSD. Given their line was the Czech working GSD I'm not so surprised. Not an average family pet by any stretch.
That all said maybe the overall breed might be improved by bringing in more Czech French and German working GSD lines(not the wolf ones of course)? For a start it should reduce the sometimes appalling level of HD in some of the current lines.
Near 20 years ago now, my own purebred(and well bred with a german "krufts" class winner grand sire and a few other "best of" examples in his lineage) GSD barely made it to 9 He had a host of problems. I got him checked at 2 and his hip scores were judged good at the time, I know now that they were borderline. Ditto for many of his ancestors. They all came with good records and some of their hipscores were more than borderline. Of course pre interweb I had to go with the well regarded breeder and others for advice, so I was in the dark. He suffered from genetic heart problems(which eventually killed him) and by the time he was 6/7 had one bad hip joint with the other slowly fading. The last time I walked him he could barely keep in a straight line Broke my heart when he died.
If it was up to me with a magic wand for a start I'd remove ALL GSD's from the breeding stock with a hip score above 10 and even aim for lower scores. That would get rid of the 'mutants' PDQ.
I have always had a real soft spot for GSD's. Others in my family had them growing up. Great dogs. Loyal, daft at times, very affectionate and clever. TBH it gives me a real pain in the bottom to see some of the dafter aspects of show dog breeder mentality crippling them(IMHO) and setting that as the standard ordinary people think is the correct one. Google most GSD breed fanciers pages and you see this 'look' in all it's glory.
Pity that above chapter link isn't translated for non German folks, as it seems he really was incredibly focused on, put a lot of thought into and did heavy research on the mechanics of the "perfect dog". It might be interesting to read. Along with the rest of the book. Its vintage wouldn't automatically throw me either. Ive gleaned some useful and novel info on other subjects from similar aged books.
Rant over
:o
*though he did plead with later breeders not to add more wolf to the bloodlines as in his opinion he had done more than enough in that respect.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Amazing! Imagine the fence needed to keep him confined! :eek:
You'd just tell him to stay.
Has the dobermann suffered the ravages of show fashion? They seem to have maintained their shape over the years and haven't looked to have succumbed to weird body debilitating looks? They aren't very common any more, but seem to be fairly square and solid.0 -
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