Microgeneration scheme

jow

Hi All,

I am trying this source because it seems I can't get any answers...

I am building a new house at the moment and I wanted to install a 4kWp PV installation on top of the roof. House is facing southwest, flat roof so I will get 30degress angles and so on (house is passive house standard and I will have solar hot water as well).
It all sounds good in therory and I am a fan of renewable energy and I am aware that the investment might never pay off with the low Irish tarrifs.

Anyway, currently ESB will pay you 9cents per exported kWh and if you are within the first 4000 installations you will get an additional 10cents for the first 5 years but this one runs out at the end of February 2012.
The situation is: While I might be able to get my installation connected till the end of February and get the 10cents the ESB website states that the 9cents will be limited till the end of 2011.

Since my investment is very expensive I tried many sources (ESB, SEAI, Government) to get an answer what will happen after the 31.12.2011.
So far no one could give me a definitive answer if there will be any payment per exported kWh or not.
Since I need to make a decision very soon does anyone have more information what is going to happen from next year on?
I mean: I will certainly not invest this amount of money if I do not get any repayments. This would result in buying the electricity for 16cents and exporting my surplus for only 10cents. This is a joke!
And I can't be the only one. What happens to the other ~3500 microgeneration installations? Those guys are high and dry as well and will only receive the 10cents from next year on.
Anyone any information on that one?

Best regards,
jow

freddyuk

I am in the same position and understand I need to install and commission my system by year end or lose the tariffs from ESB. None of it is particularly clear but contact Brendan O'Connor at ESB Networks.

quentingargan

My understanding about the 9c element of the tariff is that this is a more permanent element than the 10c top-up.

It was renewed by CER last year on this decision document. I can see no reason why this element of the tariff would not be renewed, but the long term system should be that other electricity providers should also offer the same option.

That said, there appears to be no current discussion document on the CER website about this...

maddragon

+1 what quentingargan said. Btw Jow how much is the system setting you back as <TAKE IT TO PM>.

jow

Hi,

quentingargan wrote: »

My understanding about the 9c element of the tariff is that this is a more permanent element than the 10c top-up.

That said, there appears to be no current discussion document on the CER website about this...

that is what I meant with my original post: the 9c element seems to be limited till the end of this year. And it was not possible for me to get an answer from the ESB nor from the government agency what the plans are from next year on.

You are correct: the 9c SHOULD be a permanent payment but at the moment it looks like it will run out. Thus leaving the private installations behind.

The answer I've got from the CER was: ESB has been de-regulated in April this year and at the moment they can do what they want because the state is out of it.
In clear words: the 9c are now a voluntary payment and it seems there is no regulation (which should affect all the electricity suppliers!) from the government in place.

This is really weird. Might need to contact some newspapers to bring this situation to the public.
jow

ted1

This would result in buying the electricity for 16cents and exporting my surplus for only 10cents. This is a joke!

how is that a joke?
they can generate themsleves much cheaper?
its called supply and demand.

Coles

ted1 wrote: »

how is that a joke?
they can generate themsleves much cheaper.
its called supply and demand.

The price at which the ESB, Airtricity etc sells electricity to the consumer reflects the cost of producing and distributing it. All electricity that is fed into the National Grid by Microgenerators is used locally so the distribution losses and costs are minimal so the producers should be repaid close to the consumer rate to reflect this fact.

There are a number of other benefits to producing clean renewable energy, and the SEAI website is a good place to start researching these issues.

http://www.seai.ie/Renewables/Renewable_Energy_FAQ/#benefits

ted1

I'm well aware of the benefits of renewable energy.

However I'm well aware that the bottom line comes down to price, and unless a technology is able to be self sunstanible well then its not practical.

Coles

ted1 wrote: »

I'm well aware of the benefits of renewable energy.

However I'm well aware that the bottom line comes down to price, and unless a technology is able to be self sunstanible well then its not practical.

The headline price never reflects the true cost.

The EU report on Industrial pollution clearly shows the cost of just one particular aspect of 'conventional' electricity production.

Among the 662 most damaging plants are seven in Ireland, including Moneypoint, which is 109th on the list. The others are the Aughinish Alumina plant near Foynes, Co Limerick (423), and five power stations: ESB Poolbeg, Ringsend, Dublin 4 (472); Edenderry Power, Co Offaly (558); ESB West Offaly Power, Co Offaly (576); Synergen Power, Ringsend, Dublin 4 (596); and Viridian Power, Huntstown, Co Dublin (605).

The report estimates that these seven installations caused between €176 million and €478 million in damage from emissions of ammonia, nitrous oxides, particulate matter or volatile organic compounds.

However, when emissions of carbon dioxide (CO2) are taken into account, the figures for damage in 2009 alone rose to between €718 million and €1.02 billion, according to the agency’s calculations.

Link to The Irish Times

A billion Euros per annum up in smoke. Every year. Why are clean renewable energy generators expected to compete with fossil fuel generators that are subsidised to that degree?

And we could look at some of the more intangible benefits of producing clean energy.... Energy security? Energy price stability? Positive image for international trade and tourism? No negative impacts on agriculture or ecology? Job creation in a thriving international export sector? And then there's the cost of political instability, war, oppression etc etc...

How about we just keep it simple. Give Microgenerators the consumer rate for the energy they produce. Stop profiteering on people who want to do the right thing.

ted1

Coles wrote:

How about we just keep it simple. Give Microgenerators the consumer rate for the energy they produce. Stop profiteering on people who want to do the right thing.

Nonsense.



Mod edit: Please quote the post or alternatively wrap the quote tags around the part of the post you want to quote. Thanks

quentingargan

In all of this, various industries throughout Europe have argued that a feed in tariff would help to spawn a home industry in a particular branch of renewable energy.

Thus, the UK for example was offering 42p for units exported, in the hope that a booming solar industry would grow in the UK as it had in Germany. Unfortunately, they were too late to join the party, and there was a feeding frenzy of mostly imported product to avail of this generous tariff. That tariff has now been halved, and it is very unlikely that the UK will ever be a world leader in solar PV technology.

Micro wind in Ireland is a very different matter. Ireland could very well become a world leader in small scale wind turbines. We have a number of advantages in this area;


* A high proportion of one-off houses in windy exposed locations (daft normally, but great if you want to use small turbines)
* Some of the best winds in Europe, and regular gales, which put systems to the test
* You don't need huge manufacturing plants. Most, if not all, parts of a wind turbine could be manufactured here.

It is worrying that the current scheme is about to expire, with no clear road-map for those of us working in this industry. Worse, the small subsidy that is there is only available for the first five years of the installation, with no guarantee to the customer that it would be available thereafter. That amounts to a maximum subsidy of €300 per year for five years.

In terms of job creation, we need a more imaginative feed in tariff - and preferable one which is geared towards supporting the concept that Ireland could build useful industries and technology in this area.

Coles

The joke continues... ESB/Electric Ireland Microgeneration 'support' scheme.

Electric Ireland have extended their micro-generation payment of (9 cent / kWh) by a further year to 31st December 2012. This will be the second successive year that the expiry date has been extended and it reinforces Electric Ireland’s commitment to its support of customers who install a domestic micro-generator.ESB Networks continue to offer a support package up until 29th February 2012, comprising of a free installation of import / export meter and payment of a support payment of (10 cent / kWh) which applies to the first 3,000kWh exported annually. This payment will last for a period of 5 years and will end on the 5th anniversary of the contract start date.

Ireland misses an opportunity to develop an indigenous cleantech industry while the rest of Europe sprints ahead. And people will scratch their heads and wonder what went wrong.

BryanF

hi Coles, can you direct us to the link for the 'support for small scale renewable energy in Europe' chart

thanks

Coles

BryanF wrote: »

hi Coles, can you direct us to the link for the 'support for small scale renewable energy in Europe' chart

thanks

Thanks for your interest. I created the chart from the data contained on Energy.EU.

http://www.energy.eu/

I created the chart over a year ago and the situation is actually far worse now because of the increases in the consumer electricity price.

freddyuk

Well mine has been installed in a panic to beat the old deadline and I have not seen the sun since I commissioned it !
I am looking at my stream with a view to getting a turbine going to compensate.

Carlow52

Coles wrote: »

Ireland misses an opportunity to develop an indigenous cleantech industry while the rest of Europe sprints ahead. And people will scratch their heads and wonder what went wrong.

What exact opportunity has been missed here?

Looking at the chart,
Greece pays 6 times the consumer rate as a support mechanism.

No wonder their economy is so (ro)bust

Coles

Carlow52 wrote: »

What exact opportunity has been missed here?

Looking at the chart,
Greece pays 6 times the consumer rate as a support mechanism.

No wonder their economy is so (ro)bust

Yeah, Greece is bankrupt because they decided to stimulate the cleantech sector? So what's our excuse?:rolleyes:

There are a host of reasons why it makes sense to give clean energy producers the full market value for their energy, but this thread wasn't really intended as a primer. I suggest you start your reading on the SEAI site, but if you have any questions just throw them out there.

http://energy.publicdata.eu/ee/vis.html


There is a massive move in Europe (and through out the World) towards clean decentralised energy production and into the development the systems to control the supply and demand of energy (the Smart Grid). We have some of the best resources in the world for the development of clean energy resources, and the technology that could be developed in this sector could be exported right around the world. I'm not just talking about tidal power systems, or wind turbines, or even hydro turbines, but the electrical control systems, the IT systems to monitor and control energy systems, the appliance control systems to make use of energy price fluctuations, demand control through pricing, Grid structuring, energy storage solutions etc etc

The domestic industry should act as the nursery for the global leaders of the future. Instead our engineers are emigrating and taking their ideas with them.

The ironic thing is that it would cost nothing to pay small scale energy producers the consumer rate for their electricity. It wouldn't cost the taxpayer a cent. It wouldn't cost the consumer a cent. It would simply mean that producers are receiving the proper value for the energy they produce. Every watt of energy that a microgenerator produces is used locally so there is almost no transmission losses. It requires no additional infrastructure or resources.

So many quality jobs could be created throughout the country, but particularly in rural areas that are dying on their feet as this depression drags on.

quentingargan

Not only do we have a poor feed in tariff compared to most, but and additional hurdle, in terms of cost, is that ESB insists that grid tie inverters have controls to a unique variant of the EN50438 standard (set out in paragraph 2.2 on page 7of this document)

Originally, ESB insisted that inverters were type tested in the lab with the variant installed. I keep hearing rumours that they have softened up on this, and that EN50438 inverters with the variant subsequently programmed in was acceptable. I tried to call to get a straight answer on this, but haven't been able to get anyone to give me a response.

Anybody out there got any recent experience of this? Any chance that ESB are allowing EN50438 inverters with the firmware set for the Irish market?

Considering that there are only a few hundred units exporting power in Ireland, it seems absurd that we demand unique laboratory type-testing approval for what is clearly going to be a very small market.

jow

Jippieh,

Coles wrote: »

The joke continues... ESB/Electric Ireland Microgeneration 'support' scheme.

Ireland misses an opportunity to develop an indigenous cleantech industry while the rest of Europe sprints ahead. And people will scratch their heads and wonder what went wrong.

at least this means that I WILL install PVs on top of my house. Wonder why they made the decison at practically the last day of 2011?
to scare new installers off or what?
You do not want to know how many phone calls or emails I wrote to get some info and everyone told me: Don't know!

I am sure: Somebody MUST have known...

But better something than nothing and I do fully agree: At least give us the same tariff that we pay for when we consume the energy.

I still hope that I will meet the deadline for the addtional 10 cents at the end of Feburary.

Regards,
jow

quentingargan

jow wrote: »

I still hope that I will meet the deadline for the addtional 10 cents at the end of Feburary.

Regards,
jow

And hopefully that bit will also be renewed, if only on a nail-biting 29th of February.

Mind you, the UK had what they considered to be a guaranteed feed in tariff, only to get it halved at short notice in mid-December. (But even their halved feed in tariff is a lot more than ours...)

freddyuk

quentingargan wrote: »

And hopefully that bit will also be renewed, if only on a nail-biting 29th of February.

Mind you, the UK had what they considered to be a guaranteed feed in tariff, only to get it halved at short notice in mid-December. (But even their halved feed in tariff is a lot more than ours...)

The UK tariff was never guaranteed into the future unless you had a system installed and then you were guaranteed a 25 year fixed tariff at the prevailing rate at the time of installation. That tariff cannot be amended within the 25 years without a change in the law. What should have happened was the tariff being cut by 15-20% last August from 43p when panels prices came down. The government failed to act until October when they panicked and announced the rate would be cut by 50% in 6 weeks (12th December.) That caused mayhem as anyone considering PV wanted it done now and anyone with a large system planned was unable to install as the planning process was too long. Stocks of all equipment ran out as there was panic buying. Most companies had geared up for an April adjustment which was always known about but instead businesses were cut off at the knees by an idiot energy minister. Now the industry is all but dead as new installs will not qualify for even the new 21p rate if the house cannot meet new levels of efficiency from April (which most can't) so the actual tariff will be 9p per unit and 3p for export. This does not make financial sense and is now worse than Ireland. 30,000 jobs destroyed and a growth industry dead in the water. Whilst the jobs were subsidised to some extent the cost of job creation schemes for the now jobless will cost many times more for no return to taxpayer.
The government has been taken to court over the fact the "consultation period" to amend the tariff expired after the 12th December when the actual cut off point was invoked. So now we can't install anything because we do not know what the tariff is as of today. Rumour is that a 9p rate will apply from January. Government will win of course and just move the date as the court will instruct but it is all too late.

quentingargan

freddyuk wrote: »

The UK tariff was never guaranteed into the future unless you had a system installed and then you were guaranteed a 25 year fixed tariff at the prevailing rate at the time of installation. That tariff cannot be amended within the 25 years without a change in the law. What should have happened was the tariff being cut by 15-20% last August from 43p when panels prices came down. The government failed to act until October when they panicked and announced the rate would be cut by 50% in 6 weeks (12th December.) That caused mayhem as anyone considering PV wanted it done now and anyone with a large system planned was unable to install as the planning process was too long. Stocks of all equipment ran out as there was panic buying. Most companies had geared up for an April adjustment which was always known about but instead businesses were cut off at the knees by an idiot energy minister. Now the industry is all but dead as new installs will not qualify for even the new 21p rate if the house cannot meet new levels of efficiency from April (which most can't) so the actual tariff will be 9p per unit and 3p for export. This does not make financial sense and is now worse than Ireland. 30,000 jobs destroyed and a growth industry dead in the water. Whilst the jobs were subsidised to some extent the cost of job creation schemes for the now jobless will cost many times more for no return to taxpayer.
The government has been taken to court over the fact the "consultation period" to amend the tariff expired after the 12th December when the actual cut off point was invoked. So now we can't install anything because we do not know what the tariff is as of today. Rumour is that a 9p rate will apply from January. Government will win of course and just move the date as the court will instruct but it is all too late.

Interesting. I can see for those working in the industry, there is a disillusionment, but at the same time, for someone looking in from the outside, if the object of the exercise is to reduce carbon emissions, then paying a household 21p to produce solar electricity, while their house produces tons of unnecessary carbon because they haven't insulated, then there is an argument that the low-hanging fruit has been overlooked for the most lucrative fruit.

But it does seem plain stupid to have built a wealth of expertise and an installer base and then just decimate the industry.

By the way, Spain had a Royal Decree which guaranteed income from solar PV installations for 40 years. They then just brought out another decree that changed the rates slightly, but more significantly, capped the total amount paid per KwPeak. Those of us who own these solar installations are now feeling quite insecure about the long term return on these projects!

Q

Rogue_art

The 9c Feed in tariff from ESB has been officially extended until the end of 2012. Unofficially they say that a tariff is likely to be rolled forward indefinitely (but not necessarily at 9c).
As far as i know, in order to get the 10c top up for 5 years, you still have to have your system certified by end of Feb 2012.

fclauson

Rogue_art wrote: »

The 9c Feed in tariff from ESB has been officially extended until the end of 2012. Unofficially they say that a tariff is likely to be rolled forward indefinitely (but not necessarily at 9c).
As far as i know, in order to get the 10c top up for 5 years, you still have to have your system certified by end of Feb 2012.

This is the response I got

Hello Francis,
The initial scheme was for 3 years and was an interim scheme until the Government (then had the Green Party) put together a longer term support mechanism in place, however this never happened.
Electric Ireland are the only current supplier offering a domestic Tariff and they continue to do this after the February cut off.

The current Governments Plan for Government did provide for microgen tariff around the wholesale market rate for Electricity.

While there is some industry lobbying going on, there is no signals that the ESB Networks incentives will be continued as of now.
Regards
Commercial Policy
ESB Networks

Coles

And meanwhile the rest of Europe forges ahead with the development of clean renewable energy while the ESB/Electric Ireland strangle the industry at birth in Ireland.

Isn't it funny how they imply that the support for Microgeneration was only a sop to the Green Party? There is no 'Green party' elected in the UK and yet they see the benefit of supporting the sector. Thousands of sustainable rural jobs. Thousands of energy installations providing clean renewable energy. The development of export ready products and services. Millions of tonnes of CO2 emissions avoided. And in Ireland? Nothing.

Shameful stuff and a real opportunity lost. Anybody who has a vision of working in the Cleantech sector should take their qualifications, their ideas and their capital, and emigrate from this stupid country. There is no future here while the place is controlled by morons.

freddyuk

Coles you have it wrong. The UK government has the solar industry by the plums while it threatens to defend itself in the Supreme court thus ensuring no PV installations will happen while there is a chance of a decent tariff rate.(priot to 3rd March) Once their new legal deadline is hit they can drop the appeal and everyone is stuck with a potentially uneconomic FIT. There is no current support for solar thermal so for domestic users there is nought. If you want to install a hundred turbines offshore then loads of cash available even though there are major financial and maintenance issues which are plaguing the industry.
All green proposals are being rapidly watered down.
Ireland is a much smaller country with less cash. I would suggest encouraging more domestic renewable energy installations would be better than threatening tax on private water supplies and sewage treatment plants.

Coles

The UK have brought down the feed in tariff for PV (because it was ridiculously high) and they haven't rowed back on the tariffs for any other form of Microgeneration. The intention of the UK scheme was to set the FIT so that the renewable energy producers would achieve a basic return on investment, and as the price of PV collapsed it became obvious that the FIT was too high for that sector.

Meanwhile in Ireland, the intention has been to pay lip service to sustainability and job creation but to stamp on Microgeneration at every opportunity. Job done.

The sooner the pathetic €300 'carbon tariff' bonus is gone the better (just 3 weeks left!) because then there'll be no fig leaf left for the ESB/Electric Ireland to hide their embarrassment behind.

freddyuk

Well the target FIT is 9p and I can tell you that means it is not viable in current domestic market. Even rent a roof scheme investors will not live with that rate of return. I take that to mean the support is not there. They did not listen to the industry who told them to cut the FIT in July 2011.

B9K9

Hi, I am looking at this mess while I wonder what to do now we are country folk. Any developments that one would not easily find in a search?

fclauson

There is no feed in tariff any more for domestic generation

quentingargan

fclauson wrote: »

There is no feed in tariff any more for domestic generation

Ì guess searching on google for something that doesn't exist? Vague rumours of something coming in 2016, but I'm not holding my breath...