Kicking a "no hoper" upstairs.

Curly Judge

The Kevin Cardiff saga has shown up the paucity of government options in getting rid of a less than brilliant employee.
If this man was in private industry he would be gone and forgotten by now.
Can you imagine Michael O'Leary putting up with an accountant who can't count or, for that matter, manage.
It seems that we have to be far more circumspect when it comes to the sensibilities of our very precious public servants.
Could we take a leaf out of the Brits book and invent a sort of employment Limbo where they could be moved and from where they could do no further harm.
This outfit, with certain refinements, might fit the bill.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiltern_Hundreds

A can of Yorkshire fog is available for the poster who comes up with the best Irish equivalent.

AlekSmart

Curly Judge wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiltern_Hundreds

A can of Yorkshire fog is available for the poster who comes up with the best Irish equivalent.

The Duke (or Duchess) of the Duchy of Drumcondra....?

The Knight Commander of the Most Noble Order of Offaly..?

God,but we really do need a Monarchy again...to the Tower with them all.....:eek:

Curly Judge

AlekSmart wrote: »

The Duke (or Duchess) of the Duchy of Drumcondra....?

The Knight Commander of the Most Noble Order of Offaly..?

God,but we really do need a Monarchy again...to the Tower with them all.....:eek:

At the moment you are in the lead!;)

Riskymove

Curly Judge wrote: »

Can you imagine Michael O'Leary putting up with an accountant who can't count or, for that matter, manage.

Do you think Michael O'Leary would quit if a member of Ryanair staff had made an accounting error?

Because that is the comparable scenario

AlekSmart

Riskymove wrote: »

Do you think Michael O'Leary would quit if a member of Ryanair staff had made an accounting error?

Because that is the comparable scenario

If it were of the order of magnitude of €3.4 Billion,Mickeys ass would'nt meet the cushion...:p

Riskymove

AlekSmart wrote: »

If it were of the order of magnitude of €3.4 Billion,Mickeys ass would'nt meet the cushion...:p

so if Ryanair discovered that they owed LESS money than they thought, the CEO would be fired?

amen

I'm curious is Kevin Cardiff an actual Accountant? what are his qualifications ?

AlekSmart

Riskymove wrote: »

so if Ryanair discovered that they owed LESS money than they thought, the CEO would be fired?

I believe so,Yes.....:)

The actual system has to be seen to be robust in arriving at the end figgers...that Positive result one day could just morph into a BIG negative the next day........remember how the Greeks came bearing gifts to the court of the Euro ?

Curly Judge

How about the south riding of Gougane Barra?

yellowlabrador

I'd like to appoint him Traffic Warden In Chief of the Irish Isles. Have you ever seen the traffic jams in Whiddy when the ferry comes in? All caused by double parking......:D
He could have a nice uniform with lovely epaulettes and a glider based at the Cliffs of Moher, so he can supervise.
Seriously, for anyone thinking he made a slight oversight, calculate the interest rate on 3,6 billion.:mad:

Curly Judge

Riskymove wrote: »

Do you think Michael O'Leary would quit if a member of Ryanair staff had made an accounting error?

Because that is the comparable scenario

No.
He wouldn't have to quit>
He'd be fired.

ednwireland

Riskymove wrote: »

so if Ryanair discovered that they owed LESS money than they thought, the CEO would be fired?

it would probably mess up your tax returns so yes

Park Royal

If its true NAMA flagged up the issue........

I suspect/ its obvious a few people missed the error.......

then again were all human.........

" thanks be to God were not nuclear"

Then again we cant expect too much.......RTE couldn't run an antique restoration

competition without being fooled.......

Godge

AlekSmart wrote: »

If it were of the order of magnitude of €3.4 Billion,Mickeys ass would'nt meet the cushion...:p

Does anyone actually understand what happened?

They overstated Ireland's debt by €3.4 billion but they also overstated Ireland's cash balance by €3.4 billion. Therefore no difference.

hardCopy

Godge wrote: »

Does anyone actually understand what happened?

They overstated Ireland's debt by €3.4 billion but they also overstated Ireland's cash balance by €3.4 billion. Therefore no difference.

But still wrong. The bigger issue is that objections were ignored. I can't see why we would want to appoint him to a court of auditors.

bijapos

Curly Judge wrote: »

Can you imagine Michael O'Leary putting up with an accountant who can't count or, for that matter, manage.

Acouple of years ago when oil went up to $140 a barrel Ryanair were caught out short twice. They failed to order in advance when oil was low and ordered a lot just before the price collapsed back to under $100.
Nobody was fired.

They also lost out badly on the Belfast-London route to Easyjet and others, they couldn't get business going and left Belfast.
Nobody was fired.

Ryanair don't do kneejerk dismissals, if they did no serious manager would touch them. Using them constantly as a barometer and saying things such as : "Michael O'Leary would have them out before their arses could touch the seat" is a bit daft really.

charlemont

Sending him away to Europe just sends out the message that Paddy hasn't changed a bit !!

If we took Europe more seriously we would send a competent person there.

jimmycrackcorm

The real problem isn't Kevin Cardiff. It's a combination of public service promotions based on service length and a total inability to get rid of anybody at any level.

I'd hazard a good guess that the saga of the double accounting went round at much lower levels that Cardiff without anyone bringing it up above.

Nobody got fired for the mis-management of PPARS either...

catser6767

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The real problem isn't Kevin Cardiff. It's a combination of public service promotions based on service length and a total inability to get rid of anybody at any level.

I'd hazard a good guess that the saga of the double accounting went round at much lower levels that Cardiff without anyone bringing it up above.

Nobody got fired for the mis-management of PPARS either...

The whole point is it was brought up TWICE and either Cardiff or his staff ignored it. When NAMA brought it up quering a potential error, it should have been brought from lower to higher levels. If this was not done, Cardiff was 1. either not managing or co-ordinating his staff or 2. He chose to ignore warnings from his own staff and NAMA. Both sacking offences. There are a lot of Accountants currently out of work who can count and on his salary he could be replaced by 3.

donkey balls

bijapos wrote: »

Acouple of years ago when oil went up to $140 a barrel Ryanair were caught out short twice. They failed to order in advance when oil was low and ordered a lot just before the price collapsed back to under $100.
Nobody was fired.

They also lost out badly on the Belfast-London route to Easyjet and others, they couldn't get business going and left Belfast.
Nobody was fired.

Ryanair don't do kneejerk dismissals, if they did no serious manager would touch them. Using them constantly as a barometer and saying things such as : "Michael O'Leary would have them out before their arses could touch the seat" is a bit daft really.

As someone who has worked in the aviation industry your wrong about Ryanair pulling out of Belfast city due to Easyjet who fly from Belfast international if that was the case why did Aerlingus set up a base in Belfast?
Also the reason Ryanair pulled out of Belfast city was due to the lenght of the RWY being to short, for them to provide longer range routes ala the canaries etc as they would need more fuel uplift in order to get there.;)

whydoibother?

I can't help feeling that Kevin Cardiff was made a scapegoat to a certain extent. Surely, we don't just have one man in a room totting up the national debt. There should/must be whole teams of accountants at it. The fact that the calculation error was attributed to him personally in the press is something I'm uncomfortable with. Fair enough, if he was the person with ultimate responsibility for that, and was fired due to systems failures in his department or something, then say that. But the way it was portrayed just doesn't make sense to me.

Seth Brundle

charlemont wrote: »

Sending him away to Europe just sends out the message that Paddy hasn't changed a bit !!

erm, but we haven't changed, have we?

catser6767 wrote: »

The whole point is it was brought up TWICE and either Cardiff or his staff ignored it.

As I understand it, at least five e-mails and three letters from the NTMA to the DoF.
URL="http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/1104/1224307039645.html"]my source[/URL

whydoibother? wrote: »

I can't help feeling that Kevin Cardiff was made a scapegoat to a certain extent. Surely, we don't just have one man in a room totting up the national debt. There should/must be whole teams of accountants at it. The fact that the calculation error was attributed to him personally in the press is something I'm uncomfortable with. Fair enough, if he was the person with ultimate responsibility for that, and was fired due to systems failures in his department or something, then say that. But the way it was portrayed just doesn't make sense to me.

Possibly. There have been quite a few errors made over the last number of years by the DoF and unfortunately our public service does not understand the concept of accountability.
However, Cardiff is the top civil servant in the DoF and was therefore the one to have been questioned by the PAC. All of the mess since then was his own doing IMO.

mistermouse

I would question alot about the Dept of Finance in general, they are unelected and never change with governments, yet have serious power.

The way the whole civil service operates probably needs review. The Civil Service are the Government in reality and it seems no one ever gets fired

thebman

mistermouse wrote: »

I would question alot about the Dept of Finance in general, they are unelected and never change with governments, yet have serious power.

The way the whole civil service operates probably needs review. The Civil Service are the Government in reality and it seems no one ever gets fired

Getting fired would be like a whole other universe, seems they don't even get slapped on the wrist when they f*** up by billions, they get promoted instead. Words cannot adequately express the insanity of it all.

Curly Judge

whydoibother? wrote: »

I can't help feeling that Kevin Cardiff was made a scapegoat to a certain extent. Surely, we don't just have one man in a room totting up the national debt. There should/must be whole teams of accountants at it. The fact that the calculation error was attributed to him personally in the press is something I'm uncomfortable with. Fair enough, if he was the person with ultimate responsibility for that, and was fired due to systems failures in his department or something, then say that. But the way it was portrayed just doesn't make sense to me.

But with that kind of attitude I can't ever see things changing in this benighted land.
If Kevin Cardiff had been a good servant to this country up to the time the 3.6 billion mistake made the headlines then I would say,"fair enough".
The facts are that he presided over the greatest debacle in the history of the state over a number of years.
Under his stewardship the banks ran amok, financial regulators fell asleep at the wheel, governors of central banks might as well not have bothered turning up for work -for all the good they were, and statistics that screamed out for remedial action were ignored.
Then, suddenly one night, the banks sandbag him and his political compatriots and press-gang them into a decision that our children and grandchildren will end up paying for. Not only were they caught with their trousers down that night, they didn't even have the foresight to make sure the toilet roll holder was full.
Don't get me talking about his negotiating skills during the bailout talks with the IMF and the ECB. With him at the helm we were lucky not to lose the ports.
Apologists for the public service will claim that all this was outside his control.
If that be so, why are we paying this guy megabucks to do a job?
If the job can't be done why does the position he holds exist?
Either the responsibility is his or it isn't.
Perhaps being head of the Department of Finance carries no responsibility and we are merely deluding ourselves.
Perhaps his only function is to ensure that he and his staff get paid, and handsomely at that.

whydoibother?

Curly Judge wrote: »

But with that kind of attitude I can't ever see things changing in this benighted land.
If Kevin Cardiff had been a good servant to this country up to the time the 3.6 billion mistake made the headlines then I would say,"fair enough".
The facts are that he presided over the greatest debacle in the history of the state over a number of years.
Under his stewardship the banks ran amok, financial regulators fell asleep at the wheel, governors of central banks might as well not have bothered turning up for work -for all the good they were, and statistics that screamed out for remedial action were ignored.
Then, suddenly one night, the banks sandbag him and his political compatriots and press-gang them into a decision that our children and grandchildren will end up paying for. Not only were they caught with their trousers down that night, they didn't even have the foresight to make sure the toilet roll holder was full.
Don't get me talking about his negotiating skills during the bailout talks with the IMF and the ECB. With him at the helm we were lucky not to lose the ports.
Apologists for the public service will claim that all this was outside his control.
If that be so, why are we paying this guy megabucks to do a job?
If the job can't be done why does the position he holds exist?
Either the responsibility is his or it isn't.
Perhaps being head of the Department of Finance carries no responsibility and we are merely deluding ourselves.
Perhaps his only function is to ensure that he and his staff get paid, and handsomely at that.

If you read my post, I have no problem with him being fired for heading up a failing department. I just have a problem with the portrayal of it as a personal error that he made. Allowing people to find a scapegoat and put all the blame on him, makes it easier to avoid a harder and more fundamental review of the Department of Finance procedures. By scapegoating they can say, we found the guy who made the mistake and fired him. Problem solved. In truth, the problem might be far more fundamental and that never gets considered if things are done this way.