Marathon as a training run for a goal marathon??

ronnie085

Just going to throw this one out there, probably to be shot down fairly quickly. Not really planning on doing this, really , but just making a few plans for next year and noticed that there is a marathon I would like to do 6 weeks before my goal marathon, the weekend of the longest run according to the plan I'll be using. Just got thinking that I could kill two birds with one stone and run this at long run pace and just enjoy the day out. Looking back to my first marathon my longest run would nearly have been the same 'time on feet' as this would take, so with a bigger fitness base it shouldn't cause to much damage or would it?? I recover quickly after long runs normally so I should be back to a normal training routine after a few days if I stay sensible. Before I keep rambling, any thoughts?

Pronator

The only way I would advise it is if you are going to run at a practical pace and not race the first marathon. I ran the Longford marathon at the end of August in 08 before I did Dublin the same year, upon refection it was a mistake. The reason that it was a mistake is that I raced the Longford marathon as well. Like any marathon I was not right for a few weeks after it and it compromised my training. Dublin suffered as a result.

Magnet

I`d reccommend it but only if you have the dicipline to run it as a LSR - slowly

ronnie085

Yeah I was thinking the big danger would be getting carried away on the day and then running 2 half arsed races, but if run at a sensible long run or even slightly slower pace, could there be benifits or would the dangers of injury, slow post recovery etc outway whatever benefit you would get from the extra miles on the day?

BrokenMan

Have never done it myself but I know a lot of perople who have done and the main thing is to run it just at LSR pace and no more. If you don't have the dicipline to do that then I definitely wouldn't advise it.

Out of interest what plan are you following, seems a bit strange to have your longest run 6 weeks out from a goal race.

TFBubendorfer

If you have several years of running experience and have run a lot of marathons then this can be a very good, if rather risky, training strategy.

If you don't have the experience then I very strongly advice against this.

ronnie085

BrokenMan wrote: »

Have never done it myself but I know a lot of perople who have done and the main thing is to run it just at LSR pace and no more. If you don't have the dicipline to do that then I definitely wouldn't advise it.

Out of interest what plan are you following, seems a bit strange to have your longest run 6 weeks out from a goal race.

P and D, actually the longest run is 5 weeks out, may go back to school, counted the weeks wrong

NoGutsNoGlory

try get a mate to run the first marathon with you and keep you company and enjoy the long run. at least they can keep you in check if you get carried way..

ThePiedPiper

If, as Thomas said, you've marathons under your belt, and can do 20 mile runs with no real bother, then it's probably an ok strategy. I've only done it myself once on a solo effort for 32 Counties event but it certainly did me no harm. It goes against my general rule of 2 marathons per year though and I'm not sure I'd have the discipline to hold back in normal race conditions. I suppose if you were to pace somebody who wanted to do a marathon 30 minutes slower than your goal time, no real harm.

Krusty_Clown

I've done it twice, and both times had consequences. First time I paced a mate, and picked up an injury a couple of days later and missed my goal race. Second time the marathon turned into a 31 mile monster. So, it has associated risks. As long as you are willing to accept the risks that you might not make your own goal marathon, you should be fine.

RoverHogan

ronnie085 wrote: »

Just going to throw this one out there, probably to be shot down fairly quickly. Not really planning on doing this, really , but just making a few plans for next year and noticed that there is a marathon I would like to do 6 weeks before my goal marathon, the weekend of the longest run according to the plan I'll be using. Just got thinking that I could kill two birds with one stone and run this at long run pace and just enjoy the day out. Looking back to my first marathon my longest run would nearly have been the same 'time on feet' as this would take, so with a bigger fitness base it shouldn't cause to much damage or would it?? I recover quickly after long runs normally so I should be back to a normal training routine after a few days if I stay sensible. Before I keep rambling, any thoughts?

If you have the scope, why not change your plans around and run the first marathon as your goal race? You could then see how your recovery goes before deciding what pace to run the second one at.

Rantan

IMO, unless you have lots of marathon training and racing experience I wouldn;t dream of it to be honest. I know everyone is different but if I did that I would suffer, I was thinking of something like that myself with conn and kildare for next year but Its just too much for me, as said before why not run the first as your goal? You said youself you really want to run it. how many marathons have you run already?

menoscemo

What's the one you would like to do 6 weeks before your goal Ronnie? maybe you could enquire about pacing it?

ronnie085

Its the conn and then kildare. Conn could be bit of a tough one to get my time goal which will be tight even on a perfect day. Have only done 2 so far so it probably a bit much to do both, the idea is just nagging in the back of my mind at the moment, could be time to put the sensible head on

menoscemo

ronnie085 wrote: »

Its the conn and then kildare. Conn could be bit of a tough one to get my time goal which will be tight even on a perfect day. Have only done 2 so far so it probably a bit much to do both, the idea is just nagging in the back of my mind at the moment, could be time to put the sensible head on

No pacers in Conn Unfortunately.
As You know, I ran Longford in the build up to Berlin this year, I thought it was a good idea at the time (even after Longford) but in retrospect it was a mistake because I felt like I peaked for Longford and was very flat in Berlin.

That doesn't mean to say i wouldn't try it again though :pac:

Clearlier

A little more detail about your training and running history would probably help. If you're following the 12 week up to 55 miles plan then ditch the idea, if you're doing the 18 week more than 85mpw and subbing in for the 24 mile run then provided you stick to pace it shouldn't be a problem.

If you run a fine line between training hard and getting injured don't do it.

What kind of time are you looking at? If you're aiming for sub 2:30 with 80+mpw it shouldn't be a problem. If you're aiming at 4 hours then I'd say that the risk of injury is far too great.

Are your running mechanics naturally good or do you find you need to do lots of stretching?

Rantan

ronnie085 wrote: »

Its the conn and then kildare. Conn could be bit of a tough one to get my time goal which will be tight even on a perfect day. Have only done 2 so far so it probably a bit much to do both, the idea is just nagging in the back of my mind at the moment, could be time to put the sensible head on

hi ronnie, thought it was conn and kildare alright, have 3 done and wont risk it, mind you my PB is only 3.41 so a stronger runner prob could do it easily, but for where I'm at its a definite no, I might do conn/cork/DCM I reckon the absolute minimum for me between marathons is 2months. I might even stretch that out as I'm still feeling the efects of DCM now. What kind of times are you at?

TFBubendorfer

I have done marathons in quick succession on a couple of occasions, and the experience is rather telling (albeit, with a sample size of N=1).

When I pace a marathon, I can be back on the road in no time at all. The best example was just last week; 3 weeks after pacing in Dublin I had an absolute magic day in Sixmilebridge, running a strong pace for 30 miles with the last mile the fastest of the day, not feeling tired at all and the distinct impression that I could have run significantly faster and/or further.

On the other hand, the one and only time I tried to RACE two marathons in quick succession, 2 years ago, I followed up a reasonable performance in Dingle with a complete crash at mile 15 in Dublin 6 weeks later.

As I said earlier, and I get the impression we're basically all in agreement, you can do this if you are experienced enough, and if you manage to stick with an easy pace for the first marathon (which is why pacing a marathon works for me).

If you haven't got the experience, or if you run the first marathon too fast, forget it.

ronnie085

Clearlier wrote: »

A little more detail about your training and running history would probably help. If you're following the 12 week up to 55 miles plan then ditch the idea, if you're doing the 18 week more than 85mpw and subbing in for the 24 mile run then provided you stick to pace it shouldn't be a problem.

If you run a fine line between training hard and getting injured don't do it.

What kind of time are you looking at? If you're aiming for sub 2:30 with 80+mpw it shouldn't be a problem. If you're aiming at 4 hours then I'd say that the risk of injury is far too great.

Are your running mechanics naturally good or do you find you need to do lots of stretching?

Ok as far as training goes doing about 60/65 mpw at the moment with no problems. After Waterford half and an easy week going to jump into an 8 week 10k plan, hopefully building up to 70/75 mpw as I go. This will lead into a 12 week 70-85 mile program. Thats the plan anyway.

hi ronnie, thought it was conn and kildare alright, have 3 done and wont risk it, mind you my PB is only 3.41 so a stronger runner prob could do it easily, but for where I'm at its a definite no, I might do conn/cork/DCM I reckon the absolute minimum for me between marathons is 2months. I might even stretch that out as I'm still feeling the efects of DCM now. What kind of times are you at?

Last marathon was 3:10 on a tough windy day in Edinburgh. Will be aiming for sub 3, which should be doable once everything falls into place, which normally doesn't happen. Cork is a little late for me this year, a couple of weddings in a week or so before it wouldn't be the best prep .

If you haven't got the experience, or if you run the first marathon too fast, forget it.

This is where I fall down, I'd say I'll will probably err on the side of caution this time but I can see myself trying this in the future as I like the idea of getting 30 mins or so longer on your feet in preparation for whats coming. I know its a completely different animal but every other distance up to half I go longer than the distance of the race in my long run, ending up 30/40 mins longer than race time, if your body could withstand going the marathon distance in training I reckon there could be benifits but I suppose the hard bit is learning how far you can push yourself without breaking down or it being counterproductive in other ways.

Clearlier

I'd say you're on the edge of it being a sensible idea. Maybe not quite enough miles but not far off and if you're more slow twitch that fast you'll recover well.

Also, I would think that 3:30 is a long time to be on your feet which would impact on your recovery.

Essentially the question comes down to the impact that it would have on the rest of your training. If you think that you could take it in your stride without needing to adjust training either side of the marathon then go for it but if you're thinking that you might take a couple of days easy before and after I'd suggest that says the cost of doing it probably wouldn't be worth it.

Good luck whatever you do!