Training Pace

jprender

Hi Folks,

I was wondering if someone can give me a hand in relation to the training pace that I should be running at.

I have entered the Barcelona Marathon which is in March next year. I'm currently just starting a HH Nov II program which runs for 18 weeks. I hope to do the marathon in 3:30 although this may get adjusted (upwards) as time progresses.

With this time in mind, the McMillan Running Calculator throws up the following training zones.






Because of work, my training schedule is a little bit upside-down but can generally be stated as follows :-


Monday : Long Run
Thursday : Easy Run
Friday : Pace Run (although some Friday's are just Easy Runs)
Saturday : Easy Run


So, the pace for an Easy Run is pretty straight forward I think. Anything between 5:17 and 5:36, so I'll target 5:20 for Thursdays and Saturdays.

The long run however is a little confusing. HH suggests that I should perform these runs at 45 to 90 seconds slower than my Easy Runs. However, McMillan states somewhere between 5:17 and 5:54. Even if I target 5:54, that is only 34 seconds slower than my Easy Runs.
Any suggestions ?

Then the pace runs. A 3:30 marathon should be run at 4:58 pace per km. Is this the pace that I should perform my runs on Fridays, or do I need to look at McMillan above and run 4:43 - 4:52 as stated under "Steady-State Stamina Runs" ?

I really just want to ensure that I am getting the best out of all my training sessions, and don't want to train too-hard or too easy.


HERE is a link to my training log if that helps.

happygoose

HH suggests + 45 to 90 is per mile on the long runs I reckon, whereas you're working off kms with McMillan. I think that's where the confusion might be....so HH long run suggested pace would be + 28 to 56 seconds slower than target pace per km

Woddle

Hi jprender am I right in thinking that those paces are from plugging 3:30 into the mcmillan calculator?
If so I would question all the above paces because you're not there now.

Regarding easy and long runs, focus on the purpose of those runs.
Easy/recovery running is just that so don't worry about pace. I run my recovery runs by heart rate not pace and for yesterdays average my pace was 9:06 and today for the same average heart rate the pace was 9:35ish (can't remember but there abouts)
LSR this is about getting time on your feet and slowly building up the long run, running too fast on these could have you tired and run down so again focus on the task and aim to go a little further each time, when you're comfortable with the distances you're running and holding the same pace then focus on improving pace. This is really what a base phase is all about so why not do just that for the next 8 weeks, let your legs and heart get stronger and then aim for a bit of faster stuff.

Also if you are following Hal Higdon then do what he suggests and not mcmillan or vice versa.

I put this link up yesterday and I'm a convert, well worth the read
http://www.angio.net/personal/run/hadd.pdf

jprender

happygoose wrote: »

HH suggests + 45 to 90 is per mile on the long runs I reckon, whereas you're working off kms with McMillan. I think that's where the confusion might be....so HH long run suggested pace would be + 28 to 56 seconds slower than target pace per km

Yes, you are quite correct !

Miles, Schmiles :rolleyes: USA need to get with the program :P

menoscemo

jprender wrote: »

Then the pace runs. A 3:30 marathon should be run at 4:58 pace per km. Is this the pace that I should perform my runs on Fridays, or do I need to look at McMillan above and run 4:43 - 4:52 as stated under "Steady-State Stamina Runs" ?

HH definition of 'Pace' in marathon programmes is Marathon Race Pace
Race Pace: What do I mean by "race pace?" It's a frequently asked question, so let me explain. Race pace is the pace you plan to run in the race you're training for. If you're training for a 4:00 marathon, your average pace per mile is 9:09. So you would run that same pace when asked to run race pace (sometimes stated simply as "pace" on the training charts)

Steady-State Stamina Runs as defined by Mcmillan are nothing to do with marathon pace- they are typicall run at Half marathon Pace.

So For your pace runs you should run at 4:58/km or 8 mn/mile

RayCun

Woddle wrote: »

Also if you are following Hal Higdon then do what he suggests and not mcmillan or vice versa.

This.
Follow one plan, or follow the other. Don't mix training paces from one with a schedule from the other.

jprender

Woddle wrote: »

Hi jprender am I right in thinking that those paces are from plugging 3:30 into the mcmillan calculator?
If so I would question all the above paces because you're not there now.

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yep, those paces were from simply entering 3:30 into the calculator, which is the time that I want to achieve.

I'm not there yet for sure, but I am certainly finding training at these paces not too bad.
I ran the Dublin Half in 1:44:28, which shows an equivalent Marathon time of 3:40:19. With sensible training over 18 weeks, I would hope to be hitting somewhere close to 3:30 come marathon time. If I'm finding the training too hard, I will adjust my target time upwards towards 3:45, or should I just train at this estimated pace from the get-go ?

menoscemo

Is this your first marathon?

Have you been running for a long time?

If It's your first Marathon (using a Novice programme suggests it is) I wouldn't pay very much heed to the mcmillan calculator for marathon times. I guess to hit your mcmillan calculated marthon time you'd need a large running base and to be running 50 miles+ per week at a minimum.
HH Novice programmes won't get you there unfortunately, they are more designed to 'get you around'.

Why not just go out to enjoy your first marathon and take it from there. Undue time pressures are only likely to lead to injury/failure meaning you don't enjoy the experience as much as you could.

jprender

It's my first marathon alright, and I've only been running since March of this year.

I've been tempted to employ the "just get around" strategy seeing as it is my first, but, I do fancy the idea of having a target time to work towards and beat. I think that I am the kind of person that would drop sessions here and there if I was just (:rolleyes:) trying to "get around", Having a quantative time goal really helps me concentrate on my training. It's a mental problem really, probably stemming from always having played sports where "winning" was the goal. Now, if I could get it into my head that finishing the marathon was indeed winning, then I'd be sorted.

menoscemo

jprender wrote: »

It's my first marathon alright, and I've only been running since March of this year.

I've been tempted to employ the "just get around" strategy seeing as it is my first, but, I do fancy the idea of having a target time to work towards and beat. I think that I am the kind of person that would drop sessions here and there if I was just (:rolleyes:) trying to "get around", Having a quantative time goal really helps me concentrate on my training. It's a mental problem really, probably stemming from always having played sports where "winning" was the goal. Now, if I could get it into my head that finishing the marathon was indeed winning, then I'd be sorted.

The Problem is, to achieve a competitive time goal you need to be doing a programme that is a little more intensive than a HH novice programme, however to takcle a more intensive programme you need a much bigger running base, or else you will get injured.

I used P&D 55 mpw programme for my second marathon. I had been running for 18 months+ and specifically I had been doing at least 30 miles every week (including 1 or 2 speed sessions a week) for at least 6 months before starting the 18 week programme. Before starting the programme I ran a Half in 1:37 but I still failed (marginally) to break 3:30 in that marathon.

This is just to give you a bit of perspective, everyone is different but I'd hazard a guess that a 3:30 marathon is way too optimistic a time goal for you at the moment.

Raighne

jprender wrote: »

Hi Folks,

I was wondering if someone can give me a hand in relation to the training pace that I should be running at.

I have entered the Barcelona Marathon which is in March next year. I'm currently just starting a HH Nov II program which runs for 18 weeks. I hope to do the marathon in 3:30 although this may get adjusted (upwards) as time progresses.

With this time in mind, the McMillan Running Calculator throws up the following training zones.






Because of work, my training schedule is a little bit upside-down but can generally be stated as follows :-


Monday : Long Run
Thursday : Easy Run
Friday : Pace Run (although some Friday's are just Easy Runs)
Saturday : Easy Run


So, the pace for an Easy Run is pretty straight forward I think. Anything between 5:17 and 5:36, so I'll target 5:20 for Thursdays and Saturdays.

The long run however is a little confusing. HH suggests that I should perform these runs at 45 to 90 seconds slower than my Easy Runs. However, McMillan states somewhere between 5:17 and 5:54. Even if I target 5:54, that is only 34 seconds slower than my Easy Runs.
Any suggestions ?

Then the pace runs. A 3:30 marathon should be run at 4:58 pace per km. Is this the pace that I should perform my runs on Fridays, or do I need to look at McMillan above and run 4:43 - 4:52 as stated under "Steady-State Stamina Runs" ?

I really just want to ensure that I am getting the best out of all my training sessions, and don't want to train too-hard or too easy.


HERE is a link to my training log if that helps.

I'll echo some of the other posters sentiment. To calculate the paces that will provide you the best training results, you need to start at your current baseline. In the tool we license from the Lydiard Foundation, we type in recent PBs to establish a VDOT level and the tool then generates the paces and predicts the most likely race outcomes from this. I would do similar if you use an online calculator, start with where you are at and then if things are progressing well, you should be able to knock a few seconds off similar runs every week (certainly after the first 3-4 weeks of initial adaptation where some runners get slower for a while before their bodies have compensated).

If you send me a recent PB result, I'd be quite happy to send you a set of examples.

PaulieYifter

+1 on the advice from meno. For a 1st marathon I'd be adding 15 mins to the McMillan predictor rather than taking 10 off. Enjoy the training for now based on what's comfortable for you and maybe plug in a time from races during your training to see what may be on the cards.

T runner

jprender wrote: »

Hi Folks,

.


HERE is a link to my training log if that helps.

Hi jp

First of all, as stated work out where you are now. Having a target is also good if realistic as some of your paces can be geared towards it.

Youre not on big mileage so you have to try every trick in the book.

Long Run:

What is accepted now and what was not as widely accepted when HH originally penned this: is that the long run for a marathon should not be slow. It should be challenging. This is so that you get a used to the rythm of a fastish pace and also so that your body recruits a mixture of fat and carbs for the long run as it must do during the marathon for an even race. Learning to burn fat at slow paces does not greatly benefit fat burning at race pace.


For you starting at 10% slower than race pace and finishing at race pace is good.

Thursday run: As youre pace run is on thursday, you could do strides after wednesdays run. Relaxed and fast on the flat or even 5 by 80 building up to 12 by 80 all out on a hill.

The idea is the hills makes you use a very high percentage of your muscle fibres. The more you can use these fibres, the better your training and your marathon will be.
It also means youll feel limber and ready for the following pace run.

Also, If this run was shifted to wednesday you could do a progressive run: starting at Current Marathon Pace finishing at Current 10k pace.

This is not easy but will be another boost to your lactate threshold.

Pace Run:

THis should be carried out at current tempo race initially as by mcmillan or other predictions.

The idea is in the first six weeks to elevate your LT speed while getting in marathon endurance in the long runs.
2nd six weeks should use cruise intervals: T pace and HM pace (4:45-50) with long intervals and higher total volume to get you more used to endurance more specific to marathon pace. Your recoveries are also run fast say 5:15 ish. Improvement initially comes from extending the volume of long intervals (speed will come down slightly) then you can increase the speed of teh recovery which will make teh session more marathon specific: the average pace now being marathon race pace.

Maybe a half can be raced at the end of this phase (6 weeks out).

Easy days: Saturday and days off!!

THis might seem very techincal but training at the right speed and getting your sessions more specific closer to the race should help your goals. Variety gives spice also and eliminates monotony.

Heres an example of a modified training for each 6 week phase.

Phase 1:

Monday : Long Run 25k (start 5:30 finish 4:45 pace)
Thursday : Easy Run with (6 by 100 strides/alternate/6 by 80 100% uphill).
OR
Wednesday: Progression run 35 mins: Start 5m pace finish at 4:30 pace.

Friday : Pace Run: Tempo 15mins T pace 3 easy 10 T 2 easy 5 T (WU AND WD)
Saturday : Easy Run

Phase2

Monday : Long Run as above but extend distance and increase average pace if it feels right) e.g 27-8 k (5:20 to 4:45 pace)
Thursday : Easy Run with 8 by 100 stride// 10 by 80 hard 100% uphill.
OR
Wednesday: Progression run 45 mins: Start 4:55 pace finish at 4:20 pace.

Friday : Pace Run:

EG: WU then 1k T pace (4:30)1k HM pace (4:45) 1km recovery (5:20) continous run 15k total effort + WU and WD.


Saturday : Easy Run

Phase3

Monday : Long Run as above but extend distance and increase average pace if it feels right) e.g 28-34 k (5:20 to 4:45 pace)
Thursday : Easy Run with 8 by 100 stride// 10 by 80 hard 100% uphill.
OR
Wednesday: Progression run 50 mins: Start 4:55 pace finish at 4:20 pace.

Friday : Pace Run:

EG: WU then 3k HM pace (4:45) 3k M pace (5:00) 3km recovery (5:20) continous run 18k total effort + WU and WD. Aim to lower recovery pace to progress marathon endurance.


Saturday : Easy Run



Anyway. Im doing something like this for marathon in spring.

Whatever about the rest the long run ran at pace will give you a very specific stimulus for teh marathon.

Genrally Increase volume at a faster rate than intensity.

Bobby1984

Hey jp,



Just said that I would post seen as you are possible around the same pace as myself and I have just completed my 1st marathon which was Dublin. Trained for the last 4 months on roughly 3/4 days training a week (depending on work etc). Back during the summer, one of my good times was a 20:30 5K so when i entered this into McMillan it said 3:20 for a marathon - i said crazy so i set 3:45 a target. I done the 5M in the race series in 39:35 (slow cause i had 2 footy matches an hour and a half later). Done the half in 1:44:39. Now when i entered this into MacMillan it said 3:41ish for a marathon.

Inexperienced as i was, I started the marathon feeling great and went through the first half in 1:50:34 (on time for a 3:41 ... or so I thought). Suffered badly in the 2nd half and came home in 3:48 dead. Now I realise that you have more timethan I had to go from a sub 1:45 HM to a sub 3:30 full but I am in agreement that 3:30 is very ambitions. There is some good advice from memo and T so definitely listen to them.



My own personal lessons which i learned from my 1st marathon are as follows:

1. A marathon is not the race to get greedy with time - set a realistic time and stick to it.

2. Dont go off too fast. In fact try to run your second half faster than the 1st.

3. Find a running buddy during the race who is running at around the same pace.

4. Smile (no matter how your feel) when crossing the finishing line (lots of cameras)

5. Enjoy the experience



Best of luck and I hope you get the time you are looking for

ger664

Jp

Your training paces should be based on your current fitness not your desired finish time. Based on your low mileage and half time 3:50-4:00 marathon is a more realistic goal to set for those paces. Your fitness levels will improve towards the race then the goal time can come down, but you have a lot of improving to do to get to 3:30 by spring.

jprender

Many thanks to all, great advice as usual