Self Monitoring wiht a HKC Alarm

creedp

A quick question here concerning whether better to go with a self monitoring system for a HKC Unit based on a text being issued when alarm is activated advising of zone etc and when reset a further text advising that this has occurred or a system based on receiving a telephone call? My understanding is that the text approach is slightly cheaper but which one do people think is the best approach?

Also is it better to install a GSM system using a SIM card or use the landline telephone service? I've got one of those wirelsss telephone services which is received via an ariel attached to external wall. Will this operate in the same way as an eircom line for the purposes of self monitoring or would I have to go down the GSM route?

Thanks

altor

creedp wrote: »

A quick question here concerning whether better to go with a self monitoring system for a HKC Unit based on a text being issued when alarm is activated advising of zone etc and when reset a further text advising that this has occurred or a system based on receiving a telephone call? My understanding is that the text approach is slightly cheaper but which one do people think is the best approach?

Also is it better to install a GSM system using a SIM card or use the landline telephone service? I've got one of those wirelsss telephone services which is received via an ariel attached to external wall. Will this operate in the same way as an eircom line for the purposes of self monitoring or would I have to go down the GSM route?

Thanks

The text will only work with Vodafone or Eircom.
If you can get an analog line out of it then with the HKC Securewave you can have voice monitoring of the alarm system. The older HKC Securewatch will only do text. Which system have you installed ?

creedp

altor wrote: »

The text will only work with Vodafone or Eircom.
If you can get an analog line out of it then with the HKC Securewave you can have voice monitoring of the alarm system. The older HKC Securewatch will only do text. Which system have you installed ?

I haven't installed anything yet but I was discussing with my builder what he normally installs in a new build and he said the HKC Securewave with either text or voice monitoring. He said normally the voice monitoring is about €100 more expensive that the text version but he would have to check which would work with my wireless phone service, all his previous houses had an eircom line so this wasn't an issue. Im probably not supposd to mention company names here but Im not promoting anyone so here goes .. my telephone service is with Net1 in the Louth area as I couldn't get an eircom line installed within a reasonable time frame. Could you advise if I could get a text or voice monitoring service with this system using a HKC Securewave alarm and if so which is best?

Jnealon

If you are going with hkc and want text then you'll need a gsm as your phone line is with a voip provider.

KoolKid

creedp wrote: »

I was discussing with my builder what he normally installs in a new build and he said the HKC Securewave with either text or voice monitoring.

Is your builder PSA licenced??

creedp

KoolKid wrote: »

Is your builder PSA licenced??

No but he uses a PSA licenced guy to do his installations

creedp

Jnealon wrote: »

If you are going with hkc and want text then you'll need a gsm as your phone line is with a voip provider.

That's the term (Voip) I was tearing my hair out to remember:). Does that mean OK to go with voice monitoring with voip service? Alternatively, is a GSM/text setup superior to a voice monitoring setup? I will be clarifying all with installer but I've had pretty poor experiences with a lot of experts during this build and I would love to have some preliminary understanding of what's involved before I get stuck into it!

Thanks for assistance

KoolKid

I would prefer voice over text. A voice call looks for human verification that the call has been heard and understood.
I would also ask him to show you the Siemens systems. Some extra features over HKC for the same price.

creedp

KoolKid wrote: »

I would prefer voice over text. A voice call looks for human verification that the call has been heard and understood.
I would also ask him to show you the Siemens systems. Some extra features over HKC for the same price.

Thanks for that. I will ask re: using the Siemens system but from what I gather todate this guy only installs the HKC system. Presumably the Siemens system is simply a different keypad/alarmbox with no difference for the contacts/pir's/etc. Is it common for installers to concentrate solely on one brand of alarm and if he is reluctant to go down the Siemens route am I foolish not to consider alternative installers?

KoolKid

I would not be confident using any one who only know one product.
It means they are suiting their own needs and not yours. Devices would be the same or similar. However there are more differences than just a keypad.There are many features that are not available from HKC systems.
Your the customer, a good business would be offering you the choice.
If you went into Harvey Norman's and there was only one type of TV on the wall what would you think of that shop?

creedp

KoolKid wrote: »

I would not be confident using any one who only know one product.
It means they are suiting their own needs and not yours. Devices would be the same or similar. However there are more differences than just a keypad.There are many features that are not available from HKC systems.
Your the customer, a good business would be offering you the choice.
If you went into Harvey Norman's and there was only one type of TV on the wall what would you think of that shop?

Agree on the TV analogy but I suppose at this stage I have a bad case of product/service evaluation fatigue and as I have a number of positive recommendationn on installer and system I was therefore heading down the path of least resistance in relation to this job! I am not a techie (stating the bloody obvious:)) and I accept that some systems may have more techie features but like other techie items I have invested in the past Im afraid that I will just go with default setting and never explore the possibilities. I suppose the bottom line is will the HKC provide me with a basic self monitored and reliable system? Having said that I will also pursue the Siemens option. Thanks

KoolKid

Don't get me wrong,HKC is a good quality reliable system. It's just that Siemens have a product in the same price range with some nice extra features. I am happy to discuss hkc systems with customers but when the systems features are explained to them they almost always go for Siemens. When I come across customers with hkc systems the reason is always the same as yours. The installer only does this or only showed me this or the installer said this was the best. If a system is the best why would a company not show you others? I wouldn't buy a radio with out comparing models and brands. Yet when it comes to the security of our biggest possession we accept anything. I don't understand that..

creedp

KoolKid wrote: »

Don't get me wrong,HKC is a good quality reliable system. It's just that Siemens have a product in the same price range with some nice extra features. I am happy to discuss hkc systems with customers but when the systems features are explained to them they almost always go for Siemens. When I come across customers with hkc systems the reason is always the same as yours. The installer only does this or only showed me this or the installer said this was the best. If a system is the best why would a company not show you others? I wouldn't buy a radio with out comparing models and brands. Yet when it comes to the security of our biggest possession we accept anything. I don't understand that..

You are right of course but a lot of people don't question the opinions of 'experts' and just aren't up to evaluating the technical differences between products. Which is probably why brands can survive even though the competition has passed it out - a combination of experts who can't be bothered learning something new and passing on this knowledge to consumers and consumers themselves who stick to a known brand because it has always been perceived as a good quality option or Sean down the road has one and he is happy.

As a matter of interest, what are the interesting features in the Siemens system which aren't available on the HKC?

KoolKid

Siemens has , as standard. X10 , access control, calenders and cause and effect.
You also have the optional extra of a webserver on all panels.

creedp

KoolKid wrote: »

Siemens has , as standard. X10 , access control, calenders and cause and effect.
You also have the optional extra of a webserver on all panels.

I get a slight but definitive throb in both temples when I try and digest that sort of data:). Therein lies the problem and as you say unless the installer actively explains the pros and cons and specific features of each system many consumers will not appreciate the differences between these systems. Handy for the installer who only wants to deal with one system.

KoolKid

Let the Astec situation be a lesson to those using only one make off alarm.

Jnealon

KoolKid wrote: »

I would prefer voice over text. A voice call looks for human verification that the call has been heard and understood.
I would also ask him to show you the Siemens systems. Some extra features over HKC for the same price.

Looking at it from another perspective. We install equipment that we are trained to use, know inside out, carry spare for, tested etc
If I was specifying a Siemens and I was told that they wanted a HKC or some other brand I would tell them that we don't install or support this product

Asking someone to install a product that they are not familiar with is asking for trouble

KoolKid

If there is a better spec and better value system available a good company would make it their business to install and support it.
Another angle would be I'd a company is unable or unwilling to install what the customer wants then that customer should take their business elsewhere.
As I said earlier would you give business to a shop that only sold or supported one brand of TV?

Jnealon

KoolKid wrote: »

As I said earlier would you give business to a shop that only sold or supported one brand of TV?

Not really a great analogy, I've shopped in the sony centre and when I win the lotto I will buy my av kit in bang and olufsen.
I bought my car in a ford garage

KoolKid

The brands you mention have a large range of products to suit different needs. However if you as a customer wanted an iPod and the Sony store didn't support it wouldn't you go elsewhere?

Jnealon

You're trying to compare consumer products with speciality trade products.
The same way I wouldn't tell my plumber what boiler to fit

KoolKid

Jnealon wrote: »

The same way I wouldn't tell my plumber what boiler to fit

If it's fit for the purpose and had the features you want then why not?
Are you saying people should not do their own research and decide what suits their needs

Jnealon

There are substantial costs involved in supporting a new panel. Staff need time off to attend training, initial installations take longer as technicians are getting to know the panel, spares need to be kept, software and databases updated etc etc.
We are the experts and people should trust us and not rely on what they read on-line, in certain situations this can be dangerous.
Today for example my electrical contractor sent me plans to spec for a cctv install and purchase the equipment. He later rang me in a panic asking me to cancel the order as the customer had done his "research" online and purchased some cheap cctv kit that is certainly not fir for purpose
The astec situation is unique, I can't think of any situation where the whole alarm will need to be changed when you have a faulty keypad, wiring included.
I used Verifiers for a long time and if any of them develop a fault I just swap out the panel

DublinWriter

Jnealon wrote: »

The same way I wouldn't tell my plumber what boiler to fit

Sorry, but I would and I think that's what has gone badly wrong with Irish trademen - lazy customers, resulting in "Install the cheapest, charge the maximum".

Using a HKC self-monitored system here ourselves, but you'll need a landline if you want to use the text board option on it.

KoolKid

So am I am interpeting this right?
Are you saying the customer should not be bothered with new panels & features because some companys don't want the expense or hassle of training , carying stock etc..etc? The customer should trust the company, even if that company is offering them a lower spec unit even though a higher spec one is available in the same price range. If I found that out about any company I had dealing with I would not trust them.
What you are saying here basically is the company should use products to suit their own needs & the customer should ,not only accept that, but trust that company has their best interests at heart, even though you have just described how they put their own interests first.
A strange way to do business, especially in the currant climate.

Jnealon

Like most people they will get a few quotes and pick the one they are happiest with or the op could have already paid the builder for the alarm and is stuck with this installer
This goes back to post #8, for a company to install a panel, as a once off, that they are not familiar with is crazy and is asking for trouble.
If I go by what you are saying then everybody should be installing the same panel as you

KoolKid

Jnealon wrote: »

Like most people they will get a few quotes and pick the one they are happiest with or the op could have already paid the builder for the alarm and is stuck with this installer

Exactly, why should the customers choice be limited by what one installer wants just because he doesn't want to install something else?

Jnealon wrote: »

This goes back to post #8, for a company to install a panel, as a once off, that they are not familiar with is crazy and is asking for trouble.

Which is why the company should offer various systems & not just one.

Jnealon wrote: »

If I go by what you are saying then everybody should be installing the same panel as you

I am sure you ment to say Panels ..:rolleyes:
You well know I don't just install the one panel, I give the customer the choice. They are able to choose for themselves.The whole point i'm making is that too many installers simply go in show the customer the panel & go this is all we install. Its the best, you don't need anything else. I am hearing this on a weekly basis where the customer has been told a HKC securewatch:eek: is the best there is.
Now you honestly rekon that customers should trust companys like this just because that company don't want the expense of training etc???
The only expense in training is the engineers day or half day BTW.
A small sacrifice for what they learn, not to mention to give the customer good service and support .

altor

Jnealon wrote: »

Like most people they will get a few quotes and pick the one they are happiest with or the op could have already paid the builder for the alarm and is stuck with this installer
This goes back to post #8, for a company to install a panel, as a once off, that they are not familiar with is crazy and is asking for trouble.
If I go by what you are saying then everybody should be installing the same panel as you

I would agree, he does make it sound like it is the only panel he installs and to be honest if this panel is so good then why would he install anything else, does his customers not deserve the best he can give them :eek:

KoolKid

Customers deserve what they want not what the installer wants.
Galaxy and ATS are great panel as well. Galaxy would be a bit OTT for some simple jobs, but if that's what the customer wants them that's what we are willing and able to install, maintain and support. Unlike the OPs builder I don't force systems on customers because I want to keep it simple.
Should the customer not be allowed a choice in something that is protecting ,possibly their biggest possession?
If not why not?

altor

Yes they do and that is why the pros and cons of a system should be explained.
Most installers would agree with that.

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

Yes they do and that is why the pros and cons of a system should be explained.
Most installers would agree with that.

And the best way to do that would be to compare different systems to the customer.
What statred this discussion was:

creedp wrote: »

I will ask re: using the Siemens system but from what I gather todate this guy only installs the HKC system.

Saying you only install one system & not giving the customer a choice is not the actions of a good installer IMO,

altor

KoolKid wrote: »

Saying you only install one system & not giving the customer a choice is not the actions of a good installer IMO,

I am sure there are many installers out there who use 1 system.
That is entirely up to them. Not up to us to judge !

KoolKid

altor wrote: »

I am sure there are many installers out there who use 1 system.

There are plenty. I come across them at least one a week when pricing jobs. Not judging them at all. They make my job easier & busier.;)

altor

Thats good as it is not up to us to judge.

Thunderbird2

Koolkid you do constantly make it out as though the siemens panel is better then the rest. Honestly when I go to a mates or family members house its either a HKC ,Aritech cs350 or simon panel they have installed because there easy to use and do exactly what an alarm should do. i.e contact them or a monitoring station when a sensor is tripped. Do you not think that by connecting panels to the web your asking for trouble?? and dont all those extra features make it harder for the user to use the panel

KoolKid

It would seem your friends and family have fairly old alarms.
It's good while since I installed a CS350, Simon is old as well. Even the HKC secure watch is a bit dated now.
The Siemens panel has some good features over other panels in the same price range.
Features don't mean more complicated to use. Today's DVD players are full of features compared to old VHS units. You remember how complicated they were to programme.
As for web acceds , that is quickly becoming the norm.
Ip monitoring where the connection can be polled every minute will be a very secure way to monitor. Years ago having home cameras with web access was rare. Now is the norm even for the most basic systems. Alarms will become the same.

Jnealon

KoolKid wrote: »

Customers deserve what they want not what the installer wants.
Galaxy and ATS are great panel as well. Galaxy would be a bit OTT for some simple jobs, but if that's what the customer wants them that's what we are willing and able to install, maintain and support. Unlike the OPs builder I don't force systems on customers because I want to keep it simple.
Should the customer not be allowed a choice in something that is protecting ,possibly their biggest possession?
If not why not?

Funny you should mention the galaxy, this in one of the panels that can send texts with on UPC but for the last 2 years you have taken the view that you can not send texts on UPC.

KoolKid

Im sure we cleared that up some time ago. Is there something in that relevant to this discussion?

Jnealon

Not much point in offering all these panels to customers if you do not know them inside out.
Back to the company only installing one panel and knowing it's every detail.
I know what I'd prefer

KoolKid

Quite a desperate stretch .
Strangly enough I have never had a customer who wanted a Galaxy installed who had UPC telephone line & wanted it to send texts.
Just luckey I guess;)
If I ever do come across one, (Which I doubt) can I refer them to you?

Thunderbird2

KoolKid wrote: »

It would seem your friends and family have fairly old alarms.
It's good while since I installed a CS350, Simon is old as well. Even the HKC secure watch is a bit dated now.
The Siemens panel has some good features over other panels in the same price range.
Features don't mean more complicated to use. Today's DVD players are full of features compared to old VHS units. You remember how complicated they were to programme.
As for web acceds , that is quickly becoming the norm.
Ip monitoring where the connection can be polled every minute will be a very secure way to monitor. Years ago having home cameras with web access was rare. Now is the norm even for the most basic systems. Alarms will become the same.

They all work whats wrong with these panels?

KoolKid

They work, but they are old thats all.
Newer systems have newer features in the same price range thats all.
If you were buying a new phone would you pay the same money for an old Nokia 6110 or a new Iphone or similar?
They both work...

EvilMonkey

KoolKid wrote: »

They work, but they are old thats all.
Newer systems have newer features in the same price range thats all.
If you were buying a new phone would you pay the same money for an old Nokia 6110 or a new Iphone or similar?
They both work...

If i only wanted a phone for calls and texts and bought an iphone i would be disappointed because with a Nokia it would have better battery life and more reliable call quality.

KoolKid

So , lets say you were buying a new phone today & an iPhone,a Samsung Galaxy & a Nokia 6110 were on offer & they were all the same price.
Which would you take?

EvilMonkey

KoolKid wrote: »

So , lets say you were buying a new phone today & an iPhone,a Samsung Galaxy & a Nokia 6110 were on offer & they were all the same price.
Which would you take?

If i didn't want any of the features in a smart phone i would go with the one with the best battery life, call quality and my network supported. I haven't sat down and compared them so i cant really say!.

KoolKid

So you would choose 10 year old technology over features etc.
If thats your choice then a CS350 , HKC Securewatch or Simon Panel is for you. In my experience , when something is not more expensive, people choose newer & better features.