Veka tripple glaze windows

Troy McClure

Anyone know anything about Veka window systems. There are a few people selling them. They are a german design and seem worldwide. They are made in the North by a company called blair neill who dont supply directly to the public.
Their tripple glaze sliding door is only 28mm wide and I cant get any U values for their doors no matter how hard I try. Their windows seem good though.
Does anyone have them or know anything about their quality or otherwise?

braftery

The Veka uPVC Profiles used for the most part in the UK and Ireland for Outward opening windows are a little different to those used in Mainland Europe for Inward opening Tilt and Turn windows.

In my opinion, a 3G package of 28mm is really not worth buying. If you can fit a 2G 28mm unit for less it is probably close to the same uvalue.

The U-Values quoted for windows are all based on an opening window unit of 1480mm x 1230mm, using a rated u-Value glass package and a single frame type on the perimeter of the window.

The design of the door will greatly effect the u-value of the unit and the aluminium door threshold make the calculation of the value very complex using EN10077. Entrance Doors are exempted from having to be tested for a U-Value under EN10077 or a hotbox test EN12567 (i think).

According to the BER / DEAP, the U-Value for a door can be offered as an average of U-Value of the various components that make up the door, but how exactly this is done I have no idea !

gears

I did a quick Google and found that Veka or Blair Neill use a 44mm glass unit in their triple glazed windows and have an overall u-value of 0.8. Doesn't sound too bad to me.

braftery

44mm is a good size for a 3G unit. The OP stated for the sliding door they are using 28mm which is not so good. 28mm would be a more usual size for a 2G unit. The reason for the smaller 3G unit is possibly due to fact that section depth of the sliding part of the door (sash) is not big enough to take a wider glass package.

Troy McClure

With regards to the 44mm glazing. I am not so sure. There is a 40mm and a 44mm but one supplier made the point that they sure plikington tripple glaze, and thats it's the same one goes into either profile. So where the frame might be 40 or 44mm it's a glazing of 42.5 that goes into either. Clearly there is no advantage here. Which would be better allowing for rubber seals etc?

braftery

You can get 3G glass in a vast array of different sizes.

Most Glass package manufacturers will normally make them from 32mm wide right upto 52mm or 54mm.

As far as I am aware the big names in Glass manufacturing, Pilkingtion, Interpane and Saint Gobain don't make glass packages at all. They simply supply the raw glass formats (4mm, 6mm, laminated etc) with the various types of coating on them (Low-E soft coat etc).

The glass package manufacturers, Carey Glass or Greaney Glass then Temper the glass where applicable, and manufacture the package and put in the insulating gas (Argon or Krypton).

The dimensions of the units is defined by the thickness of the glass elements and the spacer bars (aluminium, swisspacer, thermix) used.

I have used 2G packages as small as 14mm (4mm-6mmArgon-4mm) for replacements into older frames and 3G packages as big as 52mm (4mm(Soft Coated)-20mmArgon-4mm-20mmArgon-4mm(Soft Coated) for good quality Modern Window Profiles.

Each window profile type, VEKA, REHAU, IV78 and Aluclad systems will have a few sizes of glass package that can be used, determined by the glazing bead depths available for that system.

Most modern windows will have a frame depth of between 60mm to 90mm.

In my opinion, using a window with a section of less than 70mm is a poor choice.

A thicker section is always better as it will provide more chambers, providing a better U-Value and allow for bigger glass packages to be used.

I have mentioned company names in this post but as far as I am aware none of them supply directly to the public, I hope that is ok with the Ops ?

Carlow52

braftery
Very informative and comprehensive post:)

Just wonder what your thoughts are on retro secondary glazing?

Client has two big [ 2.8 wide, 1.6 high] Thermally broken Alu-framed DG windows in a north-facing wall.

The 3 opes take up c 55cm of the 2.8m so looking at 2ndary single glazing on 1.6 by 2.25
Thanks

braftery

Carlow 52 - Thank you, I am very happy that you found the post useful

I am afraid I am not informed about secondary glazing systems so I am not really in a position to give you any solid advice.

It will make an improvement, but given you are not covering the whole window I am not sure if it will make a big difference.

Your alternatives are;

1. Properly install in a new window
2. Put a new more effecient glass package into the existing window
3. Put energy effecient blinds or curtains on the window. (there are some systems that connect to the wall that are apparently very thermally effecient).

In my opinion No 1, will give you the best result, but only if it is properly installed. I have seen alot of replacement windows put into buildings by making them a little smaller then the outside reveal and simply sealing around the outside with mastic. Doing this will probably give you no benefit from your old window, so dont bother wasting your money on the new window.

Some questions;

How old is the Aluminium window ?

How wide is the existing glass package in the Aluminium Window ?
You might find that information printed on the aluminium spacer between the two panes of the unit.

What is the frame of the secondary glazing system made from ?

How is it connected to the existed frame ?

If you want to PM me the details of the Seconday glazing system he wants to use I will take a look at it.

Troy McClure

braftery wrote: »

The dimensions of the units is defined by the thickness of the glass elements and the spacer bars (aluminium, swisspacer, thermix) used.

I have used 2G packages as small as 14mm (4mm-6mmArgon-4mm) for replacements into older frames and 3G packages as big as 52mm (4mm(Soft Coated)-20mmArgon-4mm-20mmArgon-4mm(Soft Coated) for good quality Modern Window Profiles.

Profile is 70mm. With a glazing gap of 44mm. The actual thickness of the glazing that fits this gap is 42mm which allows some space for fitting between rubber seals. 4mm14mm6mm14mm4mm. with one I think one pane that has low E coating.
Does this about right to you?

braftery

Troy McClure wrote: »

Profile is 70mm. With a glazing gap of 44mm. The actual thickness of the glazing that fits this gap is 42mm which allows some space for fitting between rubber seals. 4mm14mm6mm14mm4mm. with one I think one pane that has low E coating.
Does this about right to you?

This sounds like reasonable/good quality uPVC section.

I am a little confused by the glass package dimensions, the 6mm in the centre pane seems a little strange. But the overall package size is decent thickness and with one Low-E coating is probably giving a U-Value of 0.7Wm2K.

The most modern profiles being manufactured by VEKA, REHAU, Profine, etc are all 80mm and designed specifically for use with 3G glazing.

Most of these profiles were launched in the last 2 years and as far as I am aware are only available for the manufacture of inward opening tilt turn windows.

However I am not sure if any of the Irish Window manufacturers are using these profiles, but windows made from these systems are available in Ireland.

Troy McClure

braftery wrote: »

This sounds like reasonable/good quality uPVC section.

I am a little confused by the glass package dimensions, the 6mm in the centre pane seems a little strange. But the overall package size is decent thickness and with one Low-E coating is probably giving a U-Value of 0.7Wm2K.

The most modern profiles being manufactured by VEKA, REHAU, Profine, etc are all 80mm and designed specifically for use with 3G glazing.

Most of these profiles were launched in the last 2 years and as far as I am aware are only available for the manufacture of inward opening tilt turn windows.

However I am not sure if any of the Irish Window manufacturers are using these profiles, but windows made from these systems are available in Ireland.

70mm seems the only show in town in Ireland anyway U value is 0.8. There is only one company manufacturing them in Ireland, so if there is bigger they are coming from a Veka fabricator elsewhere. I was told there is a 90mm coming down the road at some point but we cant wait for that. I have not come across or heard of an 80mm. TBH I am happy with the 70mm. I might have to go elsewhere though for the sliding door as at 28mm I think it lets everything else down. looking at it now but cost is the issue here.

Carlow52

braftery wrote: »

Carlow 52 - Thank you, I am very happy that you found the post useful

I am afraid I am not informed about secondary glazing systems so I am not really in a position to give you any solid advice.

It will make an improvement, but given you are not covering the whole window I am not sure if it will make a big difference.

Your alternatives are;

1. Properly install in a new window
2. Put a new more effecient glass package into the existing window
3. Put energy effecient blinds or curtains on the window. (there are some systems that connect to the wall that are apparently very thermally effecient).

In my opinion No 1, will give you the best result, but only if it is properly installed. I have seen alot of replacement windows put into buildings by making them a little smaller then the outside reveal and simply sealing around the outside with mastic. Doing this will probably give you no benefit from your old window, so dont bother wasting your money on the new window.

Some questions;

How old is the Aluminium window ?

How wide is the existing glass package in the Aluminium Window ?
You might find that information printed on the aluminium spacer between the two panes of the unit.

What is the frame of the secondary glazing system made from ?

How is it connected to the existed frame ?

If you want to PM me the details of the Seconday glazing system he wants to use I will take a look at it.

Thanks
The windows are c 20 years old and are perfect with a good thermal break.

Rubber seals like new

At a guess the gap is 16 mm maybe more, need to look again.

The blinds etc make rooms dark so looking for a daylight solution.

SG framework not yet designed or fitted, one option being considered was to fit a toughen glass panel on the outside, read somewhere that keeping the wind from the SG panel can help a lot due to the wind chill factor.

My question really is about the benefit of the argon or whatever in the panel as opposed to say 75 mm air on the inside or 25 mm on the outside. It was your apparent knowledge level here that prompted, in part, the post

The other idea is to get a new dg panel with Low e glass etc etc..

braftery

Troy McClure wrote: »

70mm seems the only show in town in Ireland anyway U value is 0.8. There is only one company manufacturing them in Ireland, so if there is bigger they are coming from a Veka fabricator elsewhere. I was told there is a 90mm coming down the road at some point but we cant wait for that. I have not come across or heard of an 80mm. TBH I am happy with the 70mm. I might have to go elsewhere though for the sliding door as at 28mm I think it lets everything else down. looking at it now but cost is the issue here.

I hear you and good luck with the project. I am not sure if you have any scope to look at a timberor Aluclad Slider that you can get in 3G ?

FYI

Veka have already launched a 90mm system over a year about called Alphaline 90, this is to compete with a more effecient 80mm system from REHAU called GENEO.

Info on both below

http://www.veka.de/homepage/divers/de/alphaline90md.htm
http://www.rehau.co.uk/files/GENEO_Energy_Efficient_Window_System_980707_UK.pdf

These is not being fabricated in Ireland and is unlikly to be for some time, but I know the GENEO system is available in Ireland from at least one company.

If you want any more info PM me.

Troy McClure

Do the Rehau windows have steel reinforcment in the frame?

braftery

Troy McClure wrote: »

Do the Rehau windows have steel reinforcment in the frame?

No. The REHAU GENEO profile is made with a carbon fibre core and means that it has its own intrinsic strength so it does not need any steel inserts.

Troy McClure

braftery wrote: »

No. The REHAU GENEO profile is made with a carbon fibre core and means that it has its own intrinsic strength so it does not need any steel inserts.

These look like the future of uPVC windows. Smashing looking profile. We are going for black uPVC, some say with heat expansion and contraction that black uPVC is a nightmare. Is this a real issue and will it affect the integrity of the wondow? Also is 3 x 4mm glass better than 4/6/4? The 4/4/4 give you 2 mm more in the spacer.

braftery

Troy McClure wrote: »

These look like the future of uPVC windows. Smashing looking profile. We are going for black uPVC, some say with heat expansion and contraction that black uPVC is a nightmare. Is this a real issue and will it affect the integrity of the wondow? Also is 3 x 4mm glass better than 4/6/4? The 4/4/4 give you 2 mm more in the spacer.

I agree about the GENEO profile, I think it is probably the most elegant profile currently available.

Black or very dark uPVC profile is allows going to be more effected by strong direct sunlight, simply because it will absorb more heat.

This is not really a problem on smaller units, however on large units and on double doors, that are in the south and west facing elevations of a building this can long term lead to issues with the seals causing air leakage.

This can be a problem with all uPC systems over time, but the black or near black colours are more likely to see this problem sooner.

My opinion is that Black is not an ideal colour for uPVC window systems, but as in all things in life .. we do not always make our choices for simply functional reasons.

With regard to the 3G units, bigger cavities are always better for the energy rating, but other factors are also at play here, wind loads, toughened or safety glass, etc.

Usually as the glass unit size gets bigger you will start to see 6mm glass on the outside of the packages. This is for strength with wind loads etc.

I would recommend discussing this with your potential suppliers, see why they are using the 6mm centre pane and where possible change to a 4mm centre pane.

fm

is the rehau window classed as pvc?

braftery

fm wrote: »

is the rehau window classed as pvc?

Yes. The uPVC profile is made stronger by cross meshing the uPVC fibres on the inner core of the frame build up. This is common practice with Carbon Fibre construction, examples Modern bicycles, Formula 1 racing cars, etc.

Troy McClure

braftery wrote: »

With regard to the 3G units, bigger cavities are always better for the energy rating, but other factors are also at play here, wind loads, toughened or safety glass, etc.

Usually as the glass unit size gets bigger you will start to see 6mm glass on the outside of the packages. This is for strength with wind loads etc.

I would recommend discussing this with your potential suppliers, see why they are using the 6mm centre pane and where possible change to a 4mm centre pane.

The reason given for the 6mm pane in the middle has got to do with noise reduction in that it breaks the wavelengths that a continous 4/4/4 would give. I have'nt heard this before have you?? Probably only an issue in urbans areas maybe.

braftery

Troy McClure wrote: »

The reason given for the 6mm pane in the middle has got to do with noise reduction in that it breaks the wavelengths that a continous 4/4/4 would give. I have'nt heard this before have you?? Probably only an issue in urbans areas maybe.

This is a very good reason for putting the 6mm pane in the glass and yes your supplier is correct about the different thickness glass disturbing the wave pattern of sound and reflecting more of it.

I had not thought about this as I was not aware that you were in a built up area.

darragh_haven

Troy McClure wrote: »

70mm seems the only show in town in Ireland anyway U value is 0.8. There is only one company manufacturing them in Ireland, so if there is bigger they are coming from a Veka fabricator elsewhere. I was told there is a 90mm coming down the road at some point but we cant wait for that. I have not come across or heard of an 80mm. TBH I am happy with the 70mm. I might have to go elsewhere though for the sliding door as at 28mm I think it lets everything else down. looking at it now but cost is the issue here.

I have just got my 90mm frame, 3G windows installed this week (warm fuzzy feeling that the house is water tight:D)
I got them from an Irish company that gets them imported from the Veka factory in poland. They are the Veka Alphaline range. Down side was that i was 8 or 9 weeks getting them from order to Install.
The Veka factory in UK doesn't do them as the demand isn't there (but i think that'll change), that why they deal with the European veka manufacturer. These were excellant value. PM if you want more info.

clodola

Very informative thread

What are the recommended options now?