To neuter or not to neuter?

mickmcl09

I have a samoyed. He's nearly 15 months old. Up to now I would have said no to neutering but I'm having 2nd thoughts, basically I'm not convinced either way.

Factors to consider regarding this dog.
- He's the opposite to aggressive.
- He's making the transition from pup to dog - trying to do alot more humping in the last week or two.
- He's never rambled until today. He managed to get out and ramble 1km to neighbours. They have about 6/7 dogs.
- He has been on his own up to now. I have a 2nd samoyed (5 month old dog)arriving in 2 weeks.
- He is not a show dog, so neutering isn't an issue.

Questions.
Will neutering stop his urge to ramble / escape?
Will a new arrival make him happier to forget about what happens further a field and stay at home?
Or, worst case scenario, will he still try to get out and bring the younger fella with him?
The new arrival will not be neutered under any circumstances, will this create an issue between the 2 dogs outside of the fact that one of them will dominate over the other, being pack environment (albeit super friendly) dogs?


The dog has almost an acre to run in and he's walked a minimum of 6km per day.

pudzey101

All answers should be here
http://www.y2spay.org/CanineNeut2.htm
only benefit iv seen in my GSD is he is alot less agressive and heaped on the pounds even though he's getting twice the exercise and half the food !!!

Shanao

Mind me asking why you're against neutering? Unless you want to show/breed your dog then he really should be neutered. If you cant guarantee that he cant get out of the garden at all, and keep in mind that dogs have chewed through doors, partition walls, scaled eight foot walls and jumped straight through glass windows to get after a bitch in heat, then i would definitely neuter him, otherwise there might be some very fluffy puppies turning up in the area.

SingItOut

If the new puppy is male then yes he will fight with your dog when he gets that bit older as they will both fight for dominance and also because of the frustration of not being able to mate with female dogs in your area. They will both sense which female dog is in heat and will fight for her. And yes generally it will stop your current dog roaming if hes neutered, he could easily get lost or hit by a car if he wanders off without you knowing. Male dogs will not relent in trying to escape their yard if they know females in heat are close by.

My Labrador has been neutered since 6 months of age, he is now almost 5 and has never roamed. He does still try to hump our non spayed jack russel (only reason she isn't is due to low funds) when shes on heat.:rolleyes: although so does my roomates German shepherd x rottie who's also neutered. My dog is not dog aggressive or over weight.

mymo

I would get him done, he will ramble more now he's done it once.
I got my fella done a few months ago, no change really, didn't put on weight, still mad as ever, but stopped trying to run out the gate every time we open it.
Two intact males could be an issue later on, not worth the risk of one of them hurting the other.

Wibbs

Shanao wrote: »

Mind me asking why you're against neutering? Unless you want to show/breed your dog then he really should be neutered.

Well I'm gonna go against the flow(and seemingly blanket consensus these days) and say I'm against neutering, especially in young immature dogs(less a concern for Micks dog). For all sorts of reasons, all related to health and longevity.
Twofold increase in bone cancer; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9691849 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12433723
The idea put about it reduces prostate cancer in dogs? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3506104 Nope.
Bone mass issues in dogs http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11202221
Increases the risk of anterior cruciate ligament ACL injury http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15577502
Overall longevity? http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=646838 Intact female dogs were significantly more likely to reach great ages.

There are a whole host of reasons to think twice about neutering/spaying. Like I say this goes double for young dogs. Yet we're told that it's OK and actually advantageous. Hell I was told this by a vet two weeks ago that my 20 week old pup was a goer for this procedure. My response suggested he look up the actual clinical literature before being so gung ho.

Then the obvious ones like weight gain. The incidence of hip dysplasia is directly related to weight of the young dog. The fatter, the worse it's gonna be. Wild canids don't suffer from this problem for all sorts of reasons. They're intact, the pups growth is slower, not down to low protein either, just less food and they don't have as many genetic issues(though they can be inbred in certain populations, so the other factors seem to carry more weight).

I'd been out of the pup/dog world for near 17 years, because my last dog lasted that long intact and with few visits to vets required. What has surprised me on my return is the amount of conflicting info(kinda expected) and most of all the completely bogus advice that has precious little science behind it. Advice that would be laughed out of the park as hearsay and quackery if it was human health involved.

EG "You MUST get yearly vaccinations!!!". Funny how we as humans hopefully living to 80 only get maybe 10 or less vaccinations in our lifetimes, yet our dogs too often barely making it to 10 are vaccinated a magnitude more than that. Worse like I said it's bad science. Not unless dog viruses are the most virulent and evolving viruses the world has ever seen. Most folks are advised and get Parvovirus and Distemper "boosters" on a yearly basis. Indeed the terms of their pet insurance insist on it, yet again it's bad science http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.2000.217.1021?cookieSet=1&journalCode=javma

BTW none of the above links are hippies chanelling crystals or suggesting magick spells are the way forward. This is actual scientific research. Hell it's common sense too. If a man or woman lost their testes or ovaries due to illness they would be on medical supplementation for life. If they lost them at aged ten you can be damn sure no doctor would suggest it was healthy to leave them be.

TL;DR? Castrating a dog brings more health issues than it solves. Training and good animal husbandry will soften if not eliminate any issues you may have.

My(likely unpopular) 3 cents

Cherry Blossom

Great post Wibbs and great advice - but . . .

Only if the owner is capable of fulfilling their responsibilities as regards to being able to keep the dog securely confined to their own property.

Wibbs

true AJ, but if we're crippling dogs willy nilly on the endocrinology front because owners can't cope or want to cope that says a lot too. Worse, when professional vets are touting this as "normality", it really says a lot and not a lot of it good.

mickmcl09

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Great post Wibbs and great advice - but . . .

Only if the owner is capable of fulfilling their responsibilities as regards to being able to keep the dog securely confined to their own property.

I'm still in 2 minds over the neutering. I found where he got out, so that's sorted. It's the initial shock of him getting out that has me thinking about this whole issue. My thinking would be fairly closely aligned to wibbs train of thought, however, there has to be an element of responsibility built into it as you say.

I'm going to wait a week or 2, maybe a bit more. As long as I can keep him in, I will be in favour of keeping him intact. I'll consider it more strongly if he bests me and can get out at will.

callmekenneth

if neutering stops him from impregnating a neighbourhood dog and so prevent more unwanted pups landing into the pounds/rescues then it's absolutely worth it.

my dog is snipped and there's not a pick of fat on him

kylith

The idea that neutering makes dogs fat is nonsense. Weight has to do with energy in (food) Vs energy out (exercise). All my dogs and my friends' dogs have been neutered and not one of them is overweight.

OP, it may not stop him rambling, but it will stop him being driven to distraction by the smell of females in heat. I don't know what your garden is like, but I've seen JRTs scale a 5' fence to get at a bitch.

May I ask why neutering the second dog is out of the question?

Jerri Jordan

I have a 5 year old male samoyed. He is neutered. From day one he always had the urge to escape and ramble. It is in the samoyed nature they are great diggers and escape artists.
Even tho he is neutered he would still try the odd time and hump something!
I dont think neutering changed him in any way really. He is always friendly playful and boisterous. The samoyed is the most amazing friendly loving family dog you could ever encounter. A brilliant dog for children.
I think if he continues to get out you have a responsibility to neuter him in case he gets another dog pregnant.My experience of samoyeds is that when the new dog arrives they will escape together! and samoyeds are not aggresive at all so the chance of them fighting is slim.However an unaltered male may or may not consider an altered male to be a threat.
Samoyeds are friendly, non-aggressive pack dogs as well - so they will probably work well together.
Dogs raised together from puppies often fair better with each other than dogs introduced at later times. Generally, within the first year they should be introduced and worked with.

Wibbs

kylith wrote: »

The idea that neutering makes dogs fat is nonsense. Weight has to do with energy in (food) Vs energy out (exercise). All my dogs and my friends' dogs have been neutered and not one of them is overweight.

Weight has more than food in energy out. It's more complex than that. Hormonal influences play a major part(ask any woman suffering from PCOS). You see this in people, women tend to find losing weight more difficult than men(and gain weight more easily) and older men as their testosterone declines are more likely to gain weight. It doesn't mean neutering will automatically lead to weight gain, but it increases the risk. This is a scientific fact and I can provide peer reviewed links to back this up.

While I understand, support and applaud campaigns to reduce the amount of unwanted pets being destroyed, I also get the hump over claims that are unscientific and often close to quackery in support of this. EG

SpayIreland website press release wrote:

it does not make pets fat and lazy, it will not change their personality and females do not need to have one litter before being spayed. The truth is that spaying or neutering is good for your pet’s health. The risk of cancer plummets, they’re less likely to be aggressive and they live longer as a result.”

http://www.spayweekireland.ie/blog/ The emboldened part is quite simply incorrect in light of actual research and scientific surveys and scientific knowledge. Neutered dogs have an increased risk of various cancers, an increased risk of joint injuries and conditions and live on average shorter lives. The latter with female dogs in particular(various links in my previous post). The younger the age at which the dog is neutered/spayed the stronger these disadvantageous probabilities are. The point about "it will not change their personality" is dubious too. If one reason to neuter is to reduce the reproductive/prey/wandering drive, then that is clearly changing personalities. It's either one or the other.

However I do agree with widespread sterilisation of pets, but rather than gonadal removal why don't vets offer the "snip/tying their tubes" like in humans? This would stop unwanted offspring and keep the dog(or cat)'s endocrine system intact.

kylith

Wibbs wrote: »

Weight has more than food in energy out. It's more complex than that. Hormonal influences play a major part(ask any woman suffering from PCOS). You see this in people, women tend to find losing weight more difficult than men(and gain weight more easily) and older men as their testosterone declines are more likely to gain weight. It doesn't mean neutering will automatically lead to weight gain, but it increases the risk. This is a scientific fact and I can provide peer reviewed links to back this up.

Actually, I have PCOS. When I found myself putting on weight I decreased my calories in and increased my exercise. Guess what: I lost the weight. Sure, it may be a bit harder than for other people, but it's not nigh on impossible. I don't think you can use hormones as a cop out unless you actually have something wrong with your thyroid, which is why any unexplained weight gain that's hard to lose should be checked out by a medical professional.

While I understand, support and applaud campaigns to reduce the amount of unwanted pets being destroyed, I also get the hump over claims that are unscientific and often close to quackery in support of this. EG
http://www.spayweekireland.ie/blog/ The emboldened part is quite simply incorrect in light of actual research and scientific surveys and scientific knowledge. Neutered dogs have an increased risk of various cancers, an increased risk of joint injuries and conditions and live on average shorter lives. The latter with female dogs in particular(various links in my previous post). The younger the age at which the dog is neutered/spayed the stronger these disadvantageous probabilities are. The point about "it will not change their personality" is dubious too. If one reason to neuter is to reduce the reproductive/prey/wandering drive, then that is clearly changing personalities. It's either one or the other.

I'd have to do more reading on the scientific side to fully discuss this but in my own experience neutered dogs do not have drastically reduced life spans (my childhood dog lived to be 16, one of my current dogs is now anywhere between 11 and 14 (she's a rescue so nobody knows how old she is)), any other dogs I know who are neutered are middle aged so it's impossible to say how long they'll live.

I do agree with your point about waiting until a dog is fully mature to neuter.

I don't agree with your remarks on personality. Yes, you could say that decreased agression and decreased inclination to wander are personality changes, but I would argue that they are beneficial changes. When one says that their personality doesn't change what's meant is that the dog isn't going to go from ball obsessed to completely apathetic about toys. They're not going to lose the desire to go for a walk, or to become completely aloof and not want a cuddle.

However I do agree with widespread sterilisation of pets, but rather than gonadal removal why don't vets offer the "snip/tying their tubes" like in humans? This would stop unwanted offspring and keep the dog(or cat)'s endocrine system intact.

Unfortunately while this would decrease the number of puppies born it would have no effect on those cancers which can be avoided by traditional neutering. They will also have no effect on your dog's wandering after bitches, fighting over bitches, escaping to find bitches, hassling bitches in heat on walks, bitches coming into season and 'spotting', or attempts to mate - up to and including tying, i.e. 99% of the behaviours that people get their dogs neutered to avoid.

Wibbs

kylith wrote: »

Actually, I have PCOS. When I found myself putting on weight I decreased my calories in and increased my exercise. Guess what: I lost the weight. Sure, it may be a bit harder than for other people, but it's not nigh on impossible. I don't think you can use hormones as a cop out unless you actually have something wrong with your thyroid, which is why any unexplained weight gain that's hard to lose should be checked out by a medical professional.

Oh no I agree K, hence I put in the caveat "it doesn't mean neutering will automatically lead to weight gain, but it increases the risk". There is a clear relationship between endocrine function and weight gain(or loss). It's not the only one of course but it is one.

I'd have to do more reading on the scientific side to fully discuss this but in my own experience neutered dogs do not have drastically reduced life spans (my childhood dog lived to be 16, one of my current dogs is now anywhere between 11 and 14 (she's a rescue so nobody knows how old she is)), any other dogs I know who are neutered are middle aged so it's impossible to say how long they'll live.

The stats show an upswing in mortality with neutered dogs, particularly bitches. http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=646838
In case folks are on mobile devices I'll drop in the relevant passages for the links;

"Like women, female dogs in our study had a distinct survival advantage over males," said the lead researcher David J. Waters, associate director of Purdue University's Center on Aging and the Life Course and a professor in the Department of Clinical Sciences. "But taking away ovaries during the first four years of life completely erased the female survival advantage. We found that female rottweilers that kept their ovaries for at least six years were four times more likely to reach exceptional longevity compared to females who had the shortest lifetime ovary exposure.

Four times more likely and if you take out the dogs who died from cancer the rate was nine times more likely to reach great ages(I'll try and dig up the link for you from that sub analysis).

I do agree with your point about waiting until a dog is fully mature to neuter.

Very much so. Regardless of the pros and cons too many people will happily neuter while immature and vets will perform the procedure.

I don't agree with your remarks on personality. Yes, you could say that decreased agression and decreased inclination to wander are personality changes, but I would argue that they are beneficial changes. When one says that their personality doesn't change what's meant is that the dog isn't going to go from ball obsessed to completely apathetic about toys. They're not going to lose the desire to go for a walk, or to become completely aloof and not want a cuddle.

True though it's a grey area. I feel that too often for some neutering is the "easy route" rather than behaviour modification.

Unfortunately while this would decrease the number of puppies born it would have no effect on those cancers which can be avoided by traditional neutering.

This "prevents cancer" is the biggest fallacy of all. Its certainly not the whole story. EG Neutering increases the risk of prostate cancer in male dogs, yet not a fortnight ago I had a vet tell me directly that it "hugely reduces" the risk of that and other cancers such as bone cancer. He was quite simply and irresponsibly wrong. http://www.dogcancerblog.com/bladder-and-prostate-cancer-neutering-male-dogs-increases-risk-2/

1. Castration of dogs increases total malignant prostate cancer by EIGHT times for some prostate cancers (prostate adenocarcinoma). So the answer is yes, castration does increase prostate cancer in dogs (which goes against what I was taught).

2. Castration of dogs increases the most common type of bladder cancer (transitional cell carcinoma) by about FOUR TIMES. This is huge!! Major, major, industry shaking information as far as I can tell.

Here's the pub med study this came from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17516571

Bone cancer? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9691849

A twofold excess risk was observed among neutered dogs.

Bolding mine. I can dig up other peer reviewed studies that show increased risk of other cancers, adrenal problems, bone and joint problems, endocrine problems, increased risk of urinary problems in bitches(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11787155) hypothyroidism in certain breeds and even studies that showed an increase in some dogs of the very behaviours the operation was seeking to augment(aggression etc).

They will also have no effect on your dog's wandering after bitches, fighting over bitches, escaping to find bitches, hassling bitches in heat on walks, bitches coming into season and 'spotting', or attempts to mate - up to and including tying, i.e. 99% of the behaviours that people get their dogs neutered to avoid.

I've had four intact male dogs in my life and never had any such problems. None that were intractable anyway. I really haven't and all were large powerful dogs with high prey instincts etc. Personal experience varies of course.

For my part I'm debating some of the really dodgy "science" behind the claims we're told about our pets. Ditto for the sometimes unscientific and frankly daft vaccinations protocols with our pets. Ditto for the recommended food we feed them. Hell if I hear another "expert" talking about "too much protein" as if it was a poison I'd be nearly tempted to buy one of those hideous shock collar yokes and fit them with it and sellotape the trigger down.

Sigma Force

Regardless of whether you neuter him (I would if he was mine) you need to improve your fencing, if a dog can get out they will, unnuetered dogs will be more enclined to escape but neutered dogs like adventour too and if he's already figured out how to escape he will do it again.

So I'd improve the fencing before even thinking about getting that second dog or you'll have two headaches because the younger one will see how the other guy escapes and do the same. In the mean time sure he has a collar with an id tag on and is chipped if he isn't already.

mickmcl09

kylith wrote: »

May I ask why neutering the second dog is out of the question?

He's show / breeding standard. It would be a sin against Samoyeds to neuter him! I'm not into showing and it's a few years since I bred some springer spaniels, so breeding him is not on the agenda for a few years yet. I would hope to get one litter from him at some point in the future as he gets a bit older to have an upcoming replacement hopefully.

It's been 2 days since the great escape and no incidents since. There's nothing to say that there's a possibility of it happening again. I'm going to be very slow in deciding to neuter, for a number of reasons.

It will depend on how soon/often if ever, he manages to get out. How himself and the 2nd fella get on, which I'm not too concerned about as they're ultra friendly dogs. I've seen 10+ Samoyeds recently in a pack environment. There were a number of fully intact males and not so much as a baring of teeth in the almost 3 hours that I was in their company. Pack environment may be slightly different to just having 2 males but I'm confident enough.

Thanks for all the replies. One can sense the passion of responsible owners!

andreac

How do you know hes show/breeding standard if you havent shown him?? Is he from a really good breeder that shows dogs themselves?

mickmcl09

andreac wrote: »

Is he from a really good breeder that shows dogs themselves?

Yes. Lots of green stars won by mammy and daddy but hes a pet first and foremost.

andreac

Ah right ok. Well if you really do want to breed him i would try and show him and prove hes worthy of being bred from and get his health tests done first, like Hip Scoring and whatever other tests are needed for the breed before even considering breeding from him.