dogs

kildare.17hmr

so those of you with dogs how would you use them in a shtf situation? Would you let them off to fend for themselves and have one less mouth to feed or would you put them to use if you could?

I have 4 dogs, 2 are house pets for the kids, one is a guard dog a shepard and the fourth is my pointer for hunting. I think they would be very useful to keep around for the same reasons i have them now but also the shepard especially would be an extra set of hands so to speak in fighting off any potential attackers coming to Rob you or worse. Your thoughts?

Tabnabs

Post SHTF, I think the Amundsen model of dog use would be appropriate - they are for use as working dogs only and can be used to feed the other dogs or fresh meet for people when needs be.

kildare.17hmr

that would be my thoughts on it too. There would be plenty of other dogs wondering around that could be used to feed yours and depending on how badly stuck you were to feed you too

Grizzly 45

From the Roman war dog to todays K9 unit
Doggies are going to be your best friends in the post SHTF situation.
The more the merrier.When you consider that thru the ages the dog has been mans ,next to the horse, constant companion in killing and slaughter of his fellow man.:(
At worst if things get really bad you can always chow down on the packs weaklings yourself or feed the others with their fallen comarades.:eek:
They are loyal,easily trained and wont question even sucidial orders.So much that you could make them into your version of sucidie bombers.As the Russians did in ww2 against German tanks.They taught dogs to run under German tanks with explosives strapped to them in backpacks with contact detonators.Fast,hard to hit intelligent anti tank mines.
Even releasing a pack of old style war dogs as a melee weapon could possibly end an attack.People have an inbuilt fear of being bit,and a whole pack of hounds who are hungry coming down on them isnt a pleasent thought.
BTW speaking of Comms from a another thread.Dogs have been used as messangers in the trenches,and on pacific islands in ww2.
So definately include dogs in your survival preps.

kildare.17hmr

that programme last week on people preparing for disasters got me thinking about it, the guys out in the woods with the farm and all the guns have so much ground to cover that a few dogs would have been a great asset to them. They were getting ready to defend off military style assaults hitting them hard with as much fire power as they could when realistically a couple of trained shepard's could fight off a small group without the need for any shots

krissovo

The trouble I see with dogs is that:

A) I have little experience with dogs

And

Due to my inexperience they will likely backfire and attack me or my family

And

C) They lack intelligence so can be easily fooled, take the classic trick of throwing a sausage at them :-) so they should be used with a backup plan

I would love to factor dogs but due to our commitments with work and travel it will not happen any time soon.

I am looking at Geese as an alternative to a guard dog. I have found (with experience) they will make as much noise as a dog when intruders come and are a little harder to fool.

kildare.17hmr

krissovo wrote: »

The trouble I see with dogs is that:

A) I have little experience with dogs

Not a huge problem, trat a dog like a member of the family and let them know their place and it will come together quickly enough. even though you would be using them as a working dog they should still have a place in the group

And

Due to my inexperience they will likely backfire and attack me or my family

Again if they are part of the group its very unlikely

And

C) They lack intelligence so can be easily fooled, take the classic trick of throwing a sausage at them :-) so they should be used with a backup plan

a dog protecting its family will not take the sausage! but also you would do well to get cose enough to a guard dog to give them the sausage without setting them off and allerting people to your presence especially at night. My dogs wear bark collars during the day but they come off in the evening and if someone walks up to the house the dogs start even though they are out the back

I would love to factor dogs but due to our commitments with work and travel it will not happen any time soon.

Used to have that problem myself but thankfully not anymore:p

I am looking at Geese as an alternative to a guard dog. I have found (with experience) they will make as much noise as a dog when intruders come and are a little harder to fool.

Heard that before actually from a farmer i know, he used to have trouble with a certain group coming into the yard and stealing so he put in a small pond and feeders and a few geese who went mad which usually started the dogs off too.

Grizzly 45

As well as that.You need to define what a "gaurd dog" is.Do you just want a crazed junkyard style gaurd dog that bites anyone and thing that comes into its domain[IOW area protection]and is not going to obey any commands,bar yours more or less.
Or do you want a personal protection dog that you can load and cock like a gun to protect you and yours??

The personal protection dog is a highly expensive well trained asset that you are not going to leave running around at night in the fields or yard.He is a 4legged bodygaurd that is inside with you and is the silent alarm,in the sense a wet nose and tounge bath on your face at oh dark hundred is a good wake up call that somthing is wrong.He is as good as your partner and should be as well trained to your commands as a human.
They wont fall for the old sausage trick,as they will be so well trained not to accept food from anyone but you.

The junkyard dog or pack is your cannon fodder.They are the attack and noise makers and delayers,and very expendable.

As for geese,I'd go one better ...guinea fowl.They scratch around with the chickens by day and roost up with the crows at night.So they are less likely to be a foxes dinner:D.
On gese protection..You need a VERY big aggressive gander in the flock to keep the fox awayThe guinea fowl create a godawful racket at the slightest disturbance.And are god to eat too,if young enough.

kildare.17hmr

Id lve to have the time or money to put into a proper guard dog. ill just have to make do with what i have for now altho the shepard is obiedient and they naturally wll protect their owners

slowburner

Dogs have been with man since the dawn of time - for good reasons.
Modern man is effectively a shortsighted, partially deaf creature with hardly any sense of smell.
In the absence of gadgets which artificially boost our senses, we have developed a relationship with the domesticated wolf to use its superior senses.
It's a pretty shrewd move when you think about it

Red Harvest

We have a 8month on GSD x and I keep thinking I should do something more with him than the usual family pet training. I was thinking of search and rescue but he's going to be a very big boy (8months and over 40kilos) and I'm not sure if thats not too big unless you want a dog that could drag a body out of a burning house or snow drift. Anyway he'd be with us in any survival situation no matter what additional training he gets, so far he shows no signs of aggression and I'm trying to avoid training that might provoke it as one side of his family tree has a long history in that department (you'd need to see the sire to know exactly what I mean).

Our JRT (the fat variety) does all the guarding we need and very accurately alerts the other dogs to anyones presence, pitty he doesn't come with a sensitivity control as knowing that there is someone just parked and got out of their car over half a mile away is sometimes useful but mostly not.

Visitors that get closer and near the end of the drive get a very loud barked greeting from a Rottie x who will follow them to the front door if they come through the gate, needles to say we don't get too many callers Friends tend to phone first as they know we'll put the dogs in and leave the gates open when we know someone is comming. The dogs wouldn't touch anyone but no one else knows that

We'd have geese on guard but being by a river I'm not sure they'd stay and one day we plan to get Guinea Fowl, I have a mad idea to make a sort of "watch tower" shelter for them as we don't have any decent roosting trees near the house. Several friends keep geese and you really don't want to get bitten by a gander I've seen some nasty wounds.

In the past we've had lurchers and in an area with rabbits a good one would have no problem feeding both you and himself, add in a whippet and a ferret and you'd have a really great team. When you're ferreting a whippet is a great little dog for catching the rabbits that pop out of holes you've missed or get past the nets. - oh how I miss those days but not cleaning out the ferrets

CamperMan

I think many dogs have already been let go by their owners....

krissovo

Red Harvest wrote: »

In the past we've had lurchers and in an area with rabbits a good one would have no problem feeding both you and himself

I used to home an ex retired Greyhound 5 or so years ago. I must admit I used to get a rabbit or two a week from her on our walks. I used to get the odd squirrel and even a stray cat once. I would like one again once my work situation has changed now I think of it.

fenris

For the GSD look into Schutzhund training. It covers all of the bases to whatever extent you want to go, Obedience, Tracking and Protection.
The protection part is optional in most clubs unless you want to go the whole hog for certification and the obedience is well beyond the usual "crufts" show type parlor tricks.

I did a good bit with my GSD and we both enjoyed it immensely, go along to a club and you will be amazed at what a well trained GSD can do, the only problem is that it can leave you feeling that your other dogs are a bit dim!

Red Harvest

@fenris Thanks for that, found this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzhund which gives me something to think about.

fenris

here is the links for the main Irish organisation

http://www.gsaireland.com/

I trained with them some years ago, back when I had my GSD. Most of the faces have changed, but the overall ethos was good. Back then one of the guys from the cork club was also quite senior in SARDA (Search & Rescue).

The Agility clubs are also worth talking to, as there is also a very strong obedience requirement combined with the sheer crack or running your dog over ramps, through tunnels etc. this gives another means of achieving the level of attention and focus from the dog to you that is critical to your dog being useful in any SHTF situation.

Another suggestion is to train your dog to work from hand signals, this is more natural for the dog anyway as they are so much more keyed into body language than speech, it can also be a bit of a freak out for some people when they encounter a dog that seems to acting without verbal cues!

Clicker training is a fantastic way of shaping complex behaviours, the GSD in particular will take to it like a duck to water as long as you are consistent.

All of that reminds me that I must try harder with my Irish Setter - talk about a contrast

Rew

This is the guy I buy my dog food from:
http://www.hamilbergk9.com/index.html

He trains and sells GSD's. I've met a few of his dogs grown and puppy and there stunning.

Another thing to consider, I have sled dogs and dry land mushing is practiced a bit here and all the gear can be got easily and cheaply for sledding and weight pulling.

http://www.countryhounds.ie/

Red Harvest

Hmmmm training with non verbal signals You mean like whenever I put my hand in my pocket I get a faithful hound sat very neatly in front of me with its nose as close to my pocket as it can get and for a dog thats getting near to 30inches at the shoulder thats almost in my pocket.

Actually we are doing quite well on the non verbal commands, left arm held out a 45degrees with palm flat means I've a treat in my hand and get a recall without a word from 100m, provided of course I'm the most interesting thing around. Just checked when he was born and he is actually only 7 1/2 months old so I'm not expecting too much at this stage, just pleased he's not eating anyone and is socilaising well.

The real tricky bit is the main walk is on the beach each day and bird chasing is great fun, I've been putting him back on the lead and "treating" him around flocks of Barnacle Geese this week so hopefully I can gain a bit more control.

The Schutzhund protection training sounds interesting but a long long way off yet. I've checked where the clubs are and I'm miles from any of them but might make an effort in the summer - forgot the another problem he gets car sick so there's another hurdle

fenris

He is more like a grizzly bear than a GSD

You will find that over time he will get tuned into you and a flick of a finger will be all you need for most commands.

A vital skill with a big dog is to stop and drop from a distance, it is especially useful if you are out and encounter people who may get freaked out by a large dog or you just want him out of sight for some reason.
The "long down" is the basic building block, it can be hard getting past the first minute but after that they seem to get that time is part of the drill.

For the emergency stop I would use "Stad" and "Sios" for the down, with time you will get a dead stop from a run and a drop if you need it. The key is to never use the commands while messing about and reward big time afterwards. An example of the "Stad" would be if he was heading for a road with traffic or if there were loose livestock that would be panicked.

Your chap looks like he would be practically invisible if you got him to drop in any type of undergrowth. My GSD used to love running parallel to me in the woods and would come in like a rocket when called. The key thing to remember is that it should all be a game to the dog and to train out of play and not fear otherwise you will be into a set for reactions that are just storing up trouble.

Sticky_Fingers

Having dogs would be a value asset but there are few problems that IMO must be considered. First and foremost is safety, both for yourself and other members of the public. Dogs can do a lot of damage and a poorly trained, nervous dog is a massive liability. If you have no experience either training or handling trained guard dogs then don't assume you can learn on the fly, get a competent person to train your dog for you and and more importantly someone who will teach you exactly how to control them.

Also dogs should never ever be trained to attack with or without a command, please note that if your dog attacks someone you will be in front of a Judge and your dog at the end of a needle no matter what the provocation.

Another issue to consider is that whilst dogs can be fierce and formidable deterrents, the threat they pose to would be criminals can be easily neutralised with a little bit of poison, dead dogs don't bark. Again they can be trained to not accept food from strangers or eat stuff they find lying around but this takes a lot of time and training.

Red Harvest

fenris wrote: »

He is more like a grizzly bear than a GSD

You will find that over time he will get tuned into you and a flick of a finger will be all you need for most commands.

A vital skill with a big dog is to stop and drop from a distance, it is especially useful if you are out and encounter people who may get freaked out by a large dog or you just want him out of sight for some reason.
The "long down" is the basic building block, it can be hard getting past the first minute but after that they seem to get that time is part of the drill.

For the emergency stop I would use "Stad" and "Sios" for the down, with time you will get a dead stop from a run and a drop if you need it. The key is to never use the commands while messing about and reward big time afterwards. An example of the "Stad" would be if he was heading for a road with traffic or if there were loose livestock that would be panicked.

Your chap looks like he would be practically invisible if you got him to drop in any type of undergrowth. My GSD used to love running parallel to me in the woods and would come in like a rocket when called. The key thing to remember is that it should all be a game to the dog and to train out of play and not fear otherwise you will be into a set for reactions that are just storing up trouble.

He's got some weight on him and we joke he's got a fat arse but after his daily swim you see a different dog. He does have a fat arse actually as he's wide across the hips, on the back end where a true GSD goes in he goes out. The fur is also very long, the dark fur is 5-6inches long with a grey underfur. Against a rocky shore line on the beach he is almost invisable. He started out black then went grey then black again and the grey seems to be showing through more and more.

I've started on plain "down" but its still at a very early stage, even stay is slow to come but "Sit" shouted will get him to sit at a distance and stay there, lucky I can take him for a longish walk most days without seeing another soul, thats both good and bad as I'd like to socialise him a bit more, but he gets introduced to anyone and everyone we meet and wasn't bothered by the meter reader just walking into the house today. The "down" would be handy with the birds on the beach, used to walk some Weimaraners years back and they'd be in a flock and take a bird if you didn't get them "down" in time. "Sit" is already at the flick of a finger (mostly ) and "heel" is making progress, better without a lead but can't do that on the road.

I'm also trying a plain refs type whistle as on the beach with the wind recently if I do use verbal commands I doubt he can hear me. All part of the game, hide behind a rock and give the whistle recall command.

All training done on a reward or ignore bases. Even the JRT has now learned what "Come" means :pac: :pac: :pac: but thats only because he thinks he might be missing out.

btw I did hear that there is only one thing more difficult to train than one Irish Setter - two Irish Setters .

Grizzly 45

QUOTE=Sticky_Fingers;75647487]Having dogs would be a value asset but there are few problems that IMO must be considered. First and foremost is safety, both for yourself and other members of the public. Dogs can do a lot of damage and a poorly trained, nervous dog is a massive liability. If you have no experience either training or handling trained guard dogs then don't assume you can learn on the fly, get a competent person to train your dog for you and and more importantly someone who will teach you exactly how to control them.[/QUOTE]

No nervous dog will make it thru proper PPD training in the first place.As it is very extreme,up to a point where the dog will have to attack somone wearing a bite suit and carrying a foam coverd stick to beat the dog off in attack mode.This is pretty much an acid test to the dogs chacter and temprament.
So what you need to be looking for is a good trainer first.IOW somone with paper and a reputation behind them.Any competant trainer will tell you that YOU have to be trained as much as the dog.And the exellent trainers wont even dream of training any old mutt you bring in to your specs like an automation,as whats the point of training your dog to listen only to the trainers commands??A dog is an intelligent,loyal creature ,not a machine that can be switched on and off as need be.Hence you have to fit the dog as the dog fits you.:)

Also dogs should never ever be trained to attack with or without a command, please note that if your dog attacks someone you will be in front of a Judge and your dog at the end of a needle no matter what the provocation.

Kind of a given.However a properly trained dog,with somone who has been trained in its use,wont need to fear this situation,as most humans are well afraid of getting bit,and a PPD in light defence mode [Given a bit of leash and starting to growl as the threat approaches] is intimidating enough to deter the most bar the most foolhardy.Properly trained PPDs when in friends mode,will allow the aggressor trainer to pet and handle them after a session no trouble.They will also restrain with the least force of their jaws necessary on a human,which is all you need.Just remember it is the same as proportinate force used to defend yourself.No need to sic the dog on somone who is fleeing,but maybe necessary to go to defcon1 if you are been threatned by a group of knife carrying scobes with evil intent.

Another issue to consider is that whilst dogs can be fierce and formidable deterrents, the threat they pose to would be criminals can be easily neutralised with a little bit of poison, dead dogs don't bark. Again they can be trained to not accept food from strangers or eat stuff they find lying around but this takes a lot of time and training.

[/QUOTE]

Actually thats is proably the easiest threat to counter to you and your dog,and takes very little training relative to other parts.DONT let anyone else feed the dog,bar you,or your partner.Dont let the dog accept food from anyone else,and discourage people especially strangers from giving your dog a scrap or treats.You can even teach the dog to eat only on your command,but like everything YOU have to put the time and work into it yourself.
As said before,whyTF areyou going to be letting your personal protection dog run around by itself late at night or whenever??Training a good protection dog costs money and time...Would you leave your gun lying around as well??A good K9 team will be a man and a dog,not just the dog itself.There are certain things a dog cant do,[like open most doors] that a human has to do.

Red Harvest

Just had another off the wall thought about dogs in a SHTF situation after our JRT just killed a rat when on a walk.

I really can't imagine if there are dead bodies around the place there's going to be any decrease in the rat population, if fact the opposite, so some of the smaller ratters might be worth feeding to keep you and your stores rat free (unless you like cats ).

If I wanted a do the job and make no noise about it dog I'd go for a Bedlington Terrier (seen very few in Ireland) or a Bedlington x Whippet.

steddyeddy

I would definatly go with a south african boerboel. Their cautious dogs and extremely sensitive to their owners needs. Thats if I was stuck in the middle of nowhere. Gorilla poachers sometimes used boerboels to distract the silverback when attacking, the boerboel always was killed but it would serve as a good distraction if being attacked by a dangerous animal. Im mainly talking about tropical biomes though and not places like Ireland or even europe.

Grizzly 45

Are they what we call rhoedisan ridgebacks?

Rew

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Are they what we call rhoedisan ridgebacks?

No ridgebacks are smaller, look different in the muzzle/face

Wibbs

Here you go http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boerboel

Very big dog. Apparently banned in Denmark as a "fighting dog". This might be an issue with other breeds down the line. We've already got the dangerous dogs list here and said dogs(and their crosses) are legally required to be on lead in public at all times and muzzled. Personally I think it a lot of cobblers in most cases. In the course of my life I've had dogs have a go at me and others I've known and not once was it one of the "dangerous" ones. But all it takes is one incident with one on the list and the "whataboutthechildren" handwringers would be out in force, which could put further restrictions on such dogs, maybe including banning ownership. You just have to look at the ballsology that surrounds "pitbulls". Of course the same people happily ignore any number of biting attacks by other non listed breeds. Labradors can be right vicious buggers depending on their breed background.

Grizzly 45

Thats what the original Great Dane must have looked like.
Looks like a very sturdy beast.:D

steddyeddy

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Thats what the original Great Dane must have looked like.
Looks like a very sturdy beast.:D

Their the perfect gaurd dog aparantly! They only show signs of aggression when their sure someones a threat to them or their master.