Does Eamon Gilmore have guts to stand up to "U-Turn Enda"?

Biggins

With the latest news (here) that there will be at least another €10 cut to child benefit again for every child in the country and the fact that last February Gilmore promised that Fine Gael would have to abandon plans to slash child benefit if it was to have Labour as a partner in Government - the question arises with me: does Gilmore actually have the guts to stand up to Kenny and FINALLY say "your not turning me and my party into another version of Fianna Fail's Green Party in power!"

Regardless of how one feels about cuts to child benefit - how many more u-turns will Gilmore accept like a good little lapdog to master Kenny?
Seriously! Is Gilmore once again going to eventually meekly accept his masters latest u-turn and follow his bidding and broken promises?

Good god! Enda Kenny will bring about the downfall of the Labour party Like Fianna Fail did also to the Green Party while they were in coalition also!

Nijmegen

Maybe Labour, like Fine Gael, shouldn't have made so many election promises they had a fair to certain idea they couldn't keep once in office?

Biggins

Honestly, I can see Labour going the same way as the Green Party at this rate.

opinion guy

Biggins you surprise me - you are normally a rock of sense, but by golly, you almost sound surprised by a politician not living up to their pre-election promises!!

Biggins

opinion guy wrote: »

Biggins you surprise me - you are normally a rock of sense, but by golly, you almost sound surprised by a politician not living up to their pre-election promises!!

I expect some to be broken - one would be stupid to think they will hold fast to all of them - but at the rate FG is going with just a year in power, they are virtually racing to break every one!

This latest one was/is a core promise not between FG and the people but a core power one between FG and Labour.
Will Gilmore find some guts and not be stripped of this basic power sharing promise?

dsmythy

Biggins wrote: »

With the latest news (here) that there will be at least another €10 cut to child benefit again for every child in the country and the fact that last February Gilmore promised that Fine Gael would have to abandon plans to slash child benefit if it was to have Labour as a partner in Government - the question arises with me: does Gilmore actually have the guts to stand up to Kenny and FINALLY say "your not turning me and my party into another version of Fianna Fail's Green Party in power!"

Regardless of how one feels about cuts to child benefit - how many more u-turns will Gilmore accept like a good little lapdog to master Kenny?
Seriously! Is Gilmore once again going to eventually meekly accept his masters latest u-turn and follow his bidding and broken promises?

Good god! Enda Kenny will bring about the downfall of the Labour party Like Fianna Fail did also to the Green Party while they were in coalition also!

Did Enda Kenny say he wasn't going to cut child benefit?

efb

Impressed with FG- not LAB
Howlin's PS Reform was laughable

Biggins

dsmythy wrote: »

Did Enda Kenny say he wasn't going to cut child benefit?

Yes.
He made that promise (not to further cut it) to Labour Party, their members and Eamon Gilmore if they would go into coalition so they could become the next Irish government.

This isn't about the benefit though.
What is Labour being allowed to turn into? Will FG bring about its ruination?

dsmythy

Biggins wrote: »

Yes.
He made that promise (not to further cut it) to Labour Party, their members and Eamon Gilmore if they would go into coalition so they could become the next Irish government.

This isn't about the benefit though.
What is Labour being allowed to turn into? Will FG bring about its ruination?

Up to Labour whether they bring about their own ruin or otherwise rather than anything FG are going.

leonidas83

What about Enda Kenny making a speech about not closing Roscommon hospital then closing it within a few months of getting into power.

The way I see it, everything is up for grabs except pensions and public sector pay as both those groups vote in numbers and have strong lobby groups.

Personally I dont have a huge problem with them cutting it by 10 as I think its very generous in comparison to other EU countries. It needs to be means tested however and cut for parents earning over 50k a year. It should also be cut drastically for people exploiting the system and popping out as many kids as God will allow them

As for Eamon Gilmore or Enda Kenny, I wouldnt trust either of them or any politician for that matter. The political system in this country needs to be reformed in a big way

irishh_bob

Biggins wrote: »

With the latest news (here) that there will be at least another €10 cut to child benefit again for every child in the country and the fact that last February Gilmore promised that Fine Gael would have to abandon plans to slash child benefit if it was to have Labour as a partner in Government - the question arises with me: does Gilmore actually have the guts to stand up to Kenny and FINALLY say "your not turning me and my party into another version of Fianna Fail's Green Party in power!"

Regardless of how one feels about cuts to child benefit - how many more u-turns will Gilmore accept like a good little lapdog to master Kenny?
Seriously! Is Gilmore once again going to eventually meekly accept his masters latest u-turn and follow his bidding and broken promises?

Good god! Enda Kenny will bring about the downfall of the Labour party Like Fianna Fail did also to the Green Party while they were in coalition also!

croke park is still intact , id say labour are pretty satisfied at what influence they have exerted on thier senior coalition partner , they have managed to maintain thier number one priority

Biggins

irishh_bob wrote: »

croke park is still intact , id say labour are pretty satisfied at what influence they have exerted on thier senior coalition partner , they have managed to maintain thier number one priority

Intact for the moment. Some that I've read over time have said it needs to be re-addressed (here for example) - but thats another issue I won't wander off track on.

There has been a serious amount of u-turns. How many more before the public decides Labour is gomeless and weak as the Green Party was to Fianna Fail?

dsmythy wrote: »

Up to Labour whether they bring about their own ruin or otherwise rather than anything FG are going.

True - but are they going to allow others to bring about their ruin by association with a party that is double-crossing them on core promises made - or will they stand up for their mandate for which the party says it stands for as a single entity?

Teclo

They'll put all the blame on Joan Burton. The boys knew what they were at when they shoved her in there.

dsmythy

Biggins wrote: »

True - but are they going to allow others to bring about their ruin by association with a party that is double-crossing them on core promises made - or will they stand up for their mandate for which the party says it stands for as a single entity?

Up to how the grassroots party members reacts to it all. Will anyone kick up a fuss?

Haelium

Like I say, we should make election promises legally binding. When we tick the box with their name on it, we are doing so with the trust that they will do what they said, it's an informal contract that is always broken.

If election promises are broken, then democracy does not exist.

dsmythy

Haelium wrote: »

Like I say, we should make election promises legally binding. When we tick the box with their name on it, we are doing so with the trust that they will do what they said, it's an informal contract that is always broken.

If election promises are broken, then democracy does not exist.

What if conditions change where a promise would no longer be beneficial. Are we talking court cases all the time?

opinion guy

To be honest, in a week where the upcoming budget has been "leaked" to the German parliament, do we really think it matters a damn what Enda said before or after the election ??

Though - credit where credit is due - he did tell the pope and the vatican to go f**k themselves

AnamGlas

opinion guy wrote: »

To be honest, in a week where the upcoming budget has been leaked to the German parliament, do we really think it matters a damn what Enda said before or after the election ??

Though - credit where credit is due - he did tell the pope and the vatican to go f**k themselves

"Leaked"

Here you go Germany... Oops.

280special

leonidas83 wrote: »

Personally I dont have a huge problem with them cutting it by 10 as I think its very generous in comparison to other EU countries. It needs to be means tested however and cut for parents earning over 50k a year. It should also be cut drastically for people exploiting the system and popping out as many kids as God will allow them

As for Eamon Gilmore or Enda Kenny, I wouldnt trust either of them or any politician for that matter. The political system in this country needs to be reformed in a big way

agree with you on the child benefit cuts but would means testing allow for a family earning over E50k but with a large mortgage or maybe older kids going into 3rd level ?

What alternatives do we have to FG/Labour ...or should we just regard them as being one and the same anyway ?

What alternatives to the present system would be appropraite ? I remember my old history teacher saying we needed a bit of dictatorship to sort this place out.That was 35 years ago, would that work now or are we already there ?

Politicians will say anything to get themselves elected and even more to get themselves into government. God help the elected members of those two parties the next time i see them !

Biggins

opinion guy wrote: »

To be honest, in a week where the upcoming budget has been leaked to the German parliament, do we really think it matters a damn what Enda said before or after the election ??

Though - credit where credit is due - he did tell the pope and the vatican to go f**k themselves

Just for the record and not for argument, our budget details was released to 27 countries, including Germany.
(See here for example)

It's only my own opinion but I feel it does matter.
It goes to the heart and credibility of our nations head and how serious can his word be further then taken and trusted by those elsewhere.

Just over six months ago, on the day he became Taoiseach, Kenny promised that "honesty" would not only be his Government's best policy, it would be its only policy.

Then at his party's think-in in Galway (September), Kenny said the people don't want waffle from the Government and he will "level with the people".
He most certainly isn't even doing that with his cabinet members!

280special

opinion guy wrote: »

To be honest, in a week where the upcoming budget has been "leaked" to the German parliament, do we really think it matters a damn what Enda said before or after the election ??

Though - credit where credit is due - he did tell the pope and the vatican to go f**k themselves

Yes actually it does ! He made promises , he claimed to have great influence in Europe. He broke the promises and his influence is insignificant.

and as for the Pope and the Vatican, do you honestly think he would have done that if he thought it would cost him votes in the next election ??

One swallow does not a summer make..he needs to do a damned sight more than what he has to score any points on dealing with the Catholic Church's actions in this country.

Here we go, what about this ? Seize all assets belonging to the church, use them to compensate the victims and fund a system to ensure that that kind of abuse can never happen again, then put the rest into the government's coffers....Ireland would be back in the black in one easy step !!:rolleyes:

hatrickpatrick

dsmythy wrote: »

What if conditions change where a promise would no longer be beneficial. Are we talking court cases all the time?

As I have said hundreds and hundreds of times on Boards, there is a difference between a promise made in good faith which is then broken due to changing circumstances, and a promise made to trick people into voting for you when you already know full well that you're lying about it.

The latter should absolutely result in an immediate loss of seat IMO, then maybe they wouldn't keep stealing votes from people by running on entirely false mandates.

dsmythy

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

As I have said hundreds and hundreds of times on Boards, there is a difference between a promise made in good faith which is then broken due to changing circumstances, and a promise made to trick people into voting for you when you already know full well that you're lying about it.

The latter should absolutely result in an immediate loss of seat IMO, then maybe they wouldn't keep stealing votes from people by running on entirely false mandates.

You'd need a court case on every change of plan to decide if they lied or if they meant what they said and changed their minds.

blackius

child benefit is too high anyway and it should be means tested.Money to rear kids should be earned.Otherwise use contraception.

Biggins

This IS NOT about child benefit alone. I don't want to see Labour go the way of the Green Party.
I'm not a Labour supporter but if they become as ineffectual and as pawns to be played around with as the Green Party did under Fianna Fail, they will go down the same route of destruction.
...And if that happens, the chances of Fianna Fail getting back in increase dramatically - and THAT I do not want!

thebman

I have to say I was quite surprised at the portfolio's Labour took on in this government because most of them will lead to them breaking election promises if we are to get out of this crisis.

edanto

To add some value to this thread, we would really need to paste in the entire programme for government, and then mark off which promises they have kept and which they have broken. And to what extent they have been broken.

In the case of the 'maintaining welfare rates' promise, they are maintaining the main welfare rates, but cutting child benefit. Personally, I would have preferred it to be both cut by e10 and means tested, the the IT systems of the government are so weak they say they can't get the tax and welfare systems to talk to each other. That's a disgrace. They are the single biggest entity in the country and their systems should be able to talk to each other.

On other promises, I'm glad with what's been happening with education, and also glad to see the quango rationalisation, capital programme cutbacks. Eagerly waiting on constitutional and dail reform.

Anyone want to go to the trouble of making a full list?

opinion guy

Biggins wrote: »

Just for the record and not for argument, our budget details was released to 27 countries, including Germany.
(See here for example)

Um leaking to 27 countries is worse...

K-9

If they went back on this they'd have to find the saving elsewhere in the Welfare budget. Means testing would be the way I'd go too.

hallelujajordan

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

As I have said hundreds and hundreds of times on Boards, there is a difference between a promise made in good faith which is then broken due to changing circumstances, and a promise made to trick people into voting for you when you already know full well that you're lying about it.

I agree with this in principle . . however, when applied to the current situation it is difficult to argue that circumstances changed since the current government took office. . . To be clear, they knew what the commitment was to deficit reduction before they took office and that number has not changed but yet they (the junior coalition partners at least) committed to not bringing in student fees, to not reducing child benefit and to not reducing unemployment benefit. .

Now we get to listen to them talking about how "tough decisions have to be made in government" (Aodhán Ó Ríordáin - Morning Ireland this morning).

In my view Gilmore is as guilty of u-turns and false promises as Kenny . .

anymore

Biggins wrote: »

With the latest news (here) that there will be at least another €10 cut to child benefit again for every child in the country and the fact that last February Gilmore promised that Fine Gael would have to abandon plans to slash child benefit if it was to have Labour as a partner in Government - the question arises with me: does Gilmore actually have the guts to stand up to Kenny and FINALLY say "your not turning me and my party into another version of Fianna Fail's Green Party in power!"

Regardless of how one feels about cuts to child benefit - how many more u-turns will Gilmore accept like a good little lapdog to master Kenny?
Seriously! Is Gilmore once again going to eventually meekly accept his masters latest u-turn and follow his bidding and broken promises?

Good god! Enda Kenny will bring about the downfall of the Labour party Like Fianna Fail did also to the Green Party while they were in coalition also!

How else do you think the country ius going to pay next years PS slary increases of € 300 million ?

Spokes of Glory

Haelium wrote: »

Like I say, we should make election promises legally binding. When we tick the box with their name on it, we are doing so with the trust that they will do what they said, it's an informal contract that is always broken.

If election promises are broken, then democracy does not exist.

No offense, but anyone who believed promises about welfare rates not being touched, taxes not being increased, hospitals not being closed etc etc, was naive at best. Its been public knowledge for 4 years at least that public spending is running way ahead of income. The EU/IMF deal was signed before the election. I don't really see how anybody with a passing interest in our current affairs could expect that these promises would hold.

All politicians generally, and Irish politicians in particular, will make whatever promises they think will get them into power. After that, all bets are off. So rather make those promises binding (which could just further dig us into the hole), I'd rather see something like a constitutional obligation to run a balanced budget, or at least keep it within certain limits.

Spokes

Trotter

A tough decision by Irish politicians would be to inflict dissatisfaction on those who earn 6 figure wages over hunger on those on 20k and less.

Will a person on 150k have their life made unbearable by a €20 a week drop in spendable income? No I don't believe so.

Will an equivalent person on €20k a year experience unbearable effects potentially in the same circumstances? Possibly yes.

Will our politicians choose to inflict inconvenience before hunger? Will Turkeys vote for Christmas?

Biggins

opinion guy wrote: »

Um leaking to 27 countries is worse...

No argument there.