600 million my a**!

Simtech

So it turns out dole fraud is not nearly as extensive as the government would have us think and reported savings of 600 million euro are not a reality at all. We really are being sold a pack of lies to save the bondholders.

Very interesting article from the Indo here.


"And where does the claim of €600m in savings by clamping down on welfare fraud come from? Ministers routinely use it, the media repeat it -- the figure is now part of the economic landscape.
Well, there are always overpayments. Most come from mistakes. About 31 per cent of overpayments come from fraud. And the Department of Social Welfare has a system of control in which inspectors comb through claims. The money saved by this work is known as "control savings".
Now, the department estimates that if such inspections weren't in place, then over a period of two or three years the "control savings" lost would amount to about €600m. Not the fraud cost -- the entire overpayment cost. That's where the figure comes from.
What does the Comptroller and Auditor General say of this? In chapter 38 of his 2010 report, he said: "The department's current practice of including all of these overpayments arising from control activity as savings is questionable."
That €26m from the A&CG is the only hard figure there is on uncovered annual welfare fraud -- 0.1 per cent of the social welfare budget. Yet the €600m figure, or 2,307 per cent of the known figure, is thrown around as though it meant something, inflaming anger about "dole cheats"."

Crazy Horse 6

All part of an elites campaign to deflect attention away from the real criminals in this country.

RichardAnd

I'm wary of anything that comes out of a rag but I wouldn't be too surprised if this is very true. There is something iffy about claiming that 600 million can be saved from welfare fraud because if it were true, it begs the question of how on earth can it be known before hand?

I would say the the idea was a propaganda move to to turn a very irate and dissenting population further against each other.

jhegarty

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/government-saves-345m-in-welfare-fraud-crackdown-518375.html

Simtech

That article states that 84 million was saved on pension claims. How could that many people fraudulently claim the pension? Are you not entitled to it only at a certain age? Did they lie about their age? Did loads of people die and their relatives kept collecting? The maximum rate for the Old Age Pension is €230.30 a week. €84 million?

I'd love to see the breakdown on those figures. Hard to believe.

Park Royal

Simtech wrote: »

That article states that 84 million was saved on pension claims. How could that many people fraudulently claim the pension? Are you not entitled to it only at a certain age? Did they lie about their age? Did loads of people die and their relatives kept collecting? The maximum rate for the Old Age Pension is €230.30 a week. €84 million?

I'd love to see the breakdown on those figures. Hard to believe.

Could it be that the controls and efficiency of the system are not working

properly 100 %.........? I know of one millionaire claiming disability and medical

card , even gets a cheap rate in the vets for the dog .

nesf

Simtech wrote: »

That article states that 84 million was saved on pension claims. How could that many people fraudulently claim the pension? Are you not entitled to it only at a certain age? Did they lie about their age? Did loads of people die and their relatives kept collecting? The maximum rate for the Old Age Pension is €230.30 a week. €84 million?

I'd love to see the breakdown on those figures. Hard to believe.

I imagine it was stuff like claiming pensions for dead people, or other benefits for dead people. Like free TV Licences still being assigned to houses where a pensioner used to live before dying and similar.

Simtech

7000 odd people claiming for dead relatives for at least a full year. I suppose it's possible, maybe.

thebman

nesf wrote: »

I imagine it was stuff like claiming pensions for dead people, or other benefits for dead people. Like free TV Licences still being assigned to houses where a pensioner used to live before dying and similar.

Good interview on last word about it last week saying that this was exactly what is happening.

It is not fraud, our welfare system is broken and not functioning correctly. It is basically a lie to call it fraud because the people in receipt of the money are being paid it by the state and basically the only reason you could call it fraud is they don't ring them up and tell them they are paying them when they shouldn't be.

Personally I think it would be wrong to accept the money your not entitled to and not report it but there is nothing in place to say that it is fraud not to do so.

So essentially the government is lying in this case and doesn't want to say the system is broken and not fit for purpose so they call it all fraud even though it isn't really.

Tea drinker

thebman wrote: »

Good interview on last word about it last week saying that this was exactly what is happening.

It is not fraud, our welfare system is broken and not functioning correctly. It is basically a lie to call it fraud because the people in receipt of the money are being paid it by the state and basically the only reason you could call it fraud is they don't ring them up and tell them they are paying them when they shouldn't be.

Personally I think it would be wrong to accept the money your not entitled to and not report it but there is nothing in place to say that it is fraud not to do so.

So essentially the government is lying in this case and doesn't want to say the system is broken and not fit for purpose so they call it all fraud even though it isn't really.

My employer overpaid me by 10K, I let them know about it and they took it back. I guess they would be pretty peed off and at least try to fire me otherwise. In terms of the state versus sponger, I would expect even more rigorous attention. Sure isn't it the same as not declaring income for tax?

thebman

Tea drinker wrote: »

My employer overpaid me by 10K, I let them know about it and they took it back. I guess they would be pretty peed off and at least try to fire me otherwise. In terms of the state versus sponger, I would expect even more rigorous attention. Sure isn't it the same as not declaring income for tax?

Well realistically they couldn't fire you because you might not have noticed 10K extra in your bank account especially if you don't check your account often and it has been a relatively short period of time.

I think most employers would not assume wrong doing and would bring it up with you quietly as they'd be somewhat embarrassed themselves about the mistake. However, I think if you tried to make it hard for them, good luck with your future career in that company

I don't actually know if the government gets people to pay them back if they have been receiving the money incorrectly from the government but it was the government that was giving it to them.

Taxi Drivers

That is a very poor article. The issue around the figures used by the Fiscal Advisory Council may stack up but the part of social welfare is appalling. It compares apples and oranges as if they are the same thing.

Overpayments because of fraud and savings as a result of detecting fraud are not the same thing.

For example if an overpayment because of fraud on a €100 is detected at the end of the first week of January than an overpayment of €100 is recorded. If this payment had been allowed to continue for the rest of the year than an additional €5,100 would have been paid. There is a €100 fraud overpayment and a €5,100 "control saving".

I think the C&AG is correct to question the way control savings are recorded in the accounts of the Department of Social Protection. There is no actual money involved so it doesn't really have a place in the accounts. It is just money that could have been spent.

Suppose there is €1 million of fraud overpayments detected each month for a year. How much is saved?

January: 11 months "saving" = €11 million
February: 10 months "saving" = €10 million
March: 9 months "saving" = €9 million
April: 8 months "saving" = €8 million
May: 7 months "saving" = €7 million
June: 6 months "saving" = €6 million
July: 5 months "saving" = €5 million
August: 4 months "saving" = €4 million
September: 3 months "saving" = €3 million
October: 2 months "saving" = €2 million
November: 1 months "saving" = €1 million
December: 0 months "saving" = €0

In this stylised example, detecting €12 million of fraud overpayments results overall expenditure being €66 million lower. It should be fairly clear that these are not the same things. This was not made clear in the article.

If the assumptions here cross over to reality then around €110 million of overpayments would have to be detected in order to generate savings (a reduction in expenditure) of €600 million. As about 30% of overpayments are the result of fraud this would require around €33 million of fraud overpayments to be detected.

In 2010 there were €26 million of fraud overpayments detected. It seems reasonable to me that increased vigilance could see that increase to €33 million in 2012.

There is a huge difference between "fraud overpayments" and "control savings" and it debatable which is the best measure to use. It is nonsense to suggest there are the same and used a nonsense figure of 2307% to bookend a article based around this nonsense.