Gadaffi the Younger-The next phase.

AlekSmart

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/world-news/gaddafis-son-saif-held-in-libya-2939986.html

Initial reports suggest that Saif-al-Islam has been captured and is in detention.

Reports seem to indicate that he remains popular enough to have retained a number of "Aides" and to have managed to get a convoy together.

I have always felt that this gent merited a greater degree of attention than he recieved particularly in the light of his somewhat different approach to internal issues in recent Libyan history.

The popularity of the "Popular Rebellion" however,appeared to force him back towards a more hard-line stance.

If he manages to survive the tender mercies of the NTC`s many brigades I will be very interested in what defence he manages to mount in Court.

For quite a while,Saif was certainly being feted and cultivated by the cultured Western leadership (Signor Berlusconi,Mr Blair,Mr Brown and M.Sarkozy...et al....) and more importantly he had delivered on engineering a significant shift in Libya`s internal security mechanisms.

I really do hope he gets to take the stand,as I feel he has what the Da had.....some form of vision and belief in his country's independence and stature....which is,by far,the most threatening element for the new Western supported regime and also the least understood...:rolleyes:

Batsy

Put him on trial at The Hague and then hang him.

Mr.Micro

Batsy wrote: »

Put him on trial at The Hague and then hang him.

Why bother with the trial? :rolleyes:

The Saint

Batsy wrote: »

Put him on trial at The Hague and then hang him.

Umm, the ICC don't hang people. They're a bit more civilised than that.

AlekSmart

Batsy wrote: »

Put him on trial at The Hague and then hang him.

Mr Micro wrote:

Why bother with the trial?

A bit knee-jerky perhaps,but given the level of interest in the Libyan situation,perfectly understandable reactions...I suppose

Both reactions,in a peculiar way,also serve to underline a major flaw in Mr Ocampo's cut & dried case,particularly against Saif.

The Gadaffi regime was nowhere near bloodthirsty enough to merit the Mad-Dog despotic tag which we Westerners now purport to judge them on.

Instead Gadaffi the elder favoured the oul Jail time as a method of punishment,even for the most serious of acts against the rule of Government.

Many of the rulers in the region would have a far less tolerant approach to those who dared attempt to overthrow the regime and the rope or the firing-squad exemplified that.

Proving Mr Ocampo's case against Saif in particular,has a significant obstacle in the prominent position this Gadaffi took in negotiating and arranging mass pardons and releases for some of the most fervent enemies of the Family and Libya's state apparatus itself.

Saif Gadaffi represents a significant problem also for the West,as he was most assuredly closest to the Major high-profile leaders of the calibre of Signore Berlusconi,Tony Blair,Gordon Brown,M.Sarkozy et al.....:o

Indeed,it was'nt until NATO's shock n awe operation finally managed to kick-start a somewhat reluctant Libyan people into supporting their local Rebel that Saif al Islam was forced back into adopting the Hardline despotic stance supposedly the family trademark.

All told it will be an interesting trial,and if he manages to get to the Coutroom I suspect he will put up a somewhat more robust defence than many wish to consider.

AlekSmart

Interesting to note that the young Gadaffi still has a bit of determination left in him.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8906620/Libya-Saif-Gaddafi-warns-captors-about-Islamist-leaders-in-new-video.html

In time to come footage like this will be sifted through by historians eager to explain what has happened in the "New" Libya.

Saif al Islam's efforts to rehabilitate the likes of Mr Bilhadj can now be seen to have rebounded upon him,and in no small way to have led to the fall of his fathers regime.

But it's the little asides which can be the most revealing...at 3:05 into the clip...."He told us how the Americans brought him here hanging from an iron bar after torturing him....We have been nothing but good to him,putting hm in a villa and bringing his wife and kids".

What also is obvious from the clip is the man has his convictions and is prepared to stand by them,as was the oul lad...say what you like about them but they kept their word to stay and fight in their country.

I have strong doubts as to whether Saif al Islam will make it out of Libya alive.

I strongly sense that he has far too much knowledge concerning where and how he was to move the "Old" Libya on from his Da's rule,and that knowledge will not reflect well on the likes of Bilhadj and assorted other escapees from Col.Gadaffi's supposed all pervasive brutality.

Saif al Islam was just that bit TOO close to the Western Power Broking elite to be allowed free rein to speak freely about these ties.....

Anybody prepared to lay odds here....?

wingsof daun

I didn't think Saif would be so naive to try to change an Al Qaeda leader, really surprised he would even negotiate with such an enemy.
I believe there is a conspiracy against Saif, it is unlikely he will live much longer. The ICRC (International Committee of the Red Cross) has said Saif's health is not in danger, but that is untrue according to others. He has lost much of his index finger and thumb and he needs amputation soon due to gangrene. The UN has done nothing to help Saif, they have denied him the right to a trial in a fair court. All very shady stuff if you ask me. These organizations (including the ICC) are willing to let a man die because of who he might expose in court. Sarcozy has already been exposed when it appeared in the news months ago that the previous Libyan government helped fund he presidential campaign, then he helped destroy that very government and many Libyan towns and cities.
Sadly, it is looking grim for Saif, he is highly unlikely to live past a couple of months.

Einhard

Well Alek, if there is a trial, at least Saif will have one witness who'll testify to his good character and that of his father. I mean, he only imprisoned people who dared ask for some form of democracy, and only occasionally had people executed for the same temerity. Lovely guys altogether.

wingsof daun

Einhard wrote: »

Well Alek, if there is a trial, at least Saif will have one witness who'll testify to his good character and that of his father. I mean, he only imprisoned people who dared ask for some form of democracy, and only occasionally had people executed for the same temerity. Lovely guys altogether.

There were no executions - that is a fabrication. If there were, they certainly weren't ordered by the Colonel. Yes, he did imprison people which he admitted, maybe he should have been more severe when we look at some of the criminals let loose on Libyan soil now!
You don't know any Libyan people or obviously you would know that democracy in it's fullest existed in Libya for 42 years until recently. Direct democracy, illustrated in the Green Book written by Gaddafi, the 3rd Universal Theory, the Jamahiriya. This is real democracy my friend.
This system will be the solution to our own "mess" when our government and the powers that be cause utter chaos and the people finally dispose of them. When the corruption and standard of living gets so unbearable, the people will finally govern themselves. God speed!

Einhard

wingsof daun wrote: »

There were no executions - that is a fabrication. If there were, they certainly weren't ordered by the Colonel. Yes, he did imprison people which he admitted, maybe he should have been more severe when we look at some of the criminals let loose on Libyan soil now!
You don't know any Libyan people or obviously you would know that democracy in it's fullest existed in Libya for 42 years until recently. Direct democracy, illustrated in the Green Book written by Gaddafi, the 3rd Universal Theory, the Jamahiriya. This is real democracy my friend.
This system will be the solution to our own "mess" when our government and the powers that be cause utter chaos and the people finally dispose of them. When the corruption and standard of living gets so unbearable, the people will finally govern themselves. God speed!

Sometimes a post is so full of delusion that it's a waste of time even trying to respond in a reasoned, rationale manner. You go on believing that Gadaffi's regime was a democratic paradise daun, but it's patently untrue. I wonder though, are you a Gadaffi partisan and really believe what you print, or one of those people who despise the "West" so much that they side with tyrants and dictators who share their hostility?

AlekSmart

Einhard wrote: »

Well Alek, if there is a trial, at least Saif will have one witness who'll testify to his good character and that of his father. I mean, he only imprisoned people who dared ask for some form of democracy, and only occasionally had people executed for the same temerity. Lovely guys altogether.

Quite..

However all of the light hearted banter aside,I have little doubt that Saif al Islam could put up more than a reasonable defence against the crimes with which he is charged.

I suppose one could level exactly the same charges against various Presidents of the USA in recent times ?

The various clips of Saif Al Islam in captivity illustrate,to me,somebody who is prepared to put up a reasoned defence to the crimes he is charged with.

Currently AFAIAA,Mr Ocampo has a number of International Warrants all encompassing crimes of recruiting and deploying mercenaries to kill "Innocent Libyan Civilians".

These charges,made somewhat rapidly and early in the conflict,have rather significantly turned out to be less well defined than was expected,and eminently less provable.

So now,we are,very rapidly in the aftermath of his capture,seeing these charges morph into far more soild one's of mass murder,executions and almost genocidal warfare which we westerners probably find a little more aceptable as Death Sentence material to our refined moral palates.

Democracy tends to become a highly elastic term,depending upon a range of issues surrounding where it's referred to.

I suggest that democratic regimes almost certainly during their tenures,have to stretch its boundaries when faced with challenges to those local definitions,as we ourselves did during our Civil War period and later.

It will be interesting indeed to see whether the "New" Libya can illustrate it's definition of Democracy by providing Sail Al Islam with a fair trial with the posibility of accquital,or will it simply continue with,what,we are told,was the Gadaffi way ?

It also needs to be noted that potentially highly divisive politico/religious figures and assorted others such as Belhadj spent much time locked in currently secret negotiations with Saif Al Islam during the final years of their incarceration.

These intense negotiations lead to their recanting of violence and their acceptance of the then Libyan Governments terms and eventual release.

As is alluded to in the video's the new Libya is a highly factional place with a hissing fuse,lit by the U.N./NATO.