Fixed charge for stopping, not parking

m4r10

So, my wife shows me this morning a letter from garda for paying a fixed charge. The alleged offence is that she parked on double yellow lines a week ago. After giving her an earful, we began to work it out and she admited that on that day she stopped the car for about 10 seconds in front of the school to let out daughter out of the car.
So my questions are: what's the difference between stopping and parking in this instance and can we argue that the car was stopped and not parked? Is there any point to fight this or we're just better off by paying the fine?

eth0

Never heard of that now, thought you'd have to get out of the car before you could be given a parking fine

kwalshe

Its in the rules of the road , maybe you OH needs to take a look at it. It's there for a reason

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/accidents-gardai-and-penalties/penalty-points-fixed-charge-offences/index.html

subway

rules of the road isnt the law.

under council by-laws (thats who would usually issue a fine) you can generally stop for 30 minutes to allow loading/unloading of a vehicle (no mention of whether its goods or people)
under the statute, the car has to be parked, and, afaik, parking is considered unmanned/unoccupied.

where did this happen, who issued the fine and are you 100% sure it was the mentioned occasion:?

kwalshe

@ subway : maybe you need to read my link too! There is a specific law pertaining stopping or parking at school entrances

"Illegally stopping or parking a vehicle at school entrances"

m4r10

We're sure about the time as it's mentioned on the letter, even the hour 8.45, that's why she remember about it as they were behind the schedule (the school starts at 8.50). The letter is issued by the Fixed Charge Processing Office - An Garga Siochana, so I'd say there's a traffic camera in place somwhere over there.

@kwalshe - there's no mention about any penalty points, but thanks anyway for your recommendation.

markpb

subway wrote: »

under council by-laws (thats who would usually issue a fine) you can generally stop for 30 minutes to allow loading/unloading of a vehicle (no mention of whether its goods or people)

That's leaving out a critical part. You can park on double yellow lines for the purposes of loading and unloading only if you're not breaking any other law. If you stop in a clearway, park opposite a continuous white line, park on a corner or junction, park near a pedestrian crossing, etc, the exemption no longer applies.

subway

kwalshe wrote: »

@ subway : maybe you need to read my link too! There is a specific law pertaining stopping or parking at school entrances

"Illegally stopping or parking a vehicle at school entrances"

i'm not disputing your link, i'm just saying the rules of the road is an interpreation of the law, not the law.

here is the statute on parking
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0090.html#sec90

subway

markpb wrote: »

That's leaving out a critical part. You can park on double yellow lines for the purposes of loading and unloading only if you're not breaking any other law. If you stop in a clearway, park opposite a continuous white line, park on a corner or junction, park near a pedestrian crossing, etc, the exemption no longer applies.

of course, but i'm not going to list every eventuality, hence "generally", the OP gave a scnenario, i gave a response.
the charge is parking on a double yellow, not any of the items you listed.
i could just as easily say, "you can park there as long as you're not trying to kidnap the other children"

Our man in Havana

The offence is complete as soon as the wheels stop turning.

kwalshe

subway wrote: »

i'm not disputing your link, i'm just saying the rules of the road is an interpreation of the law, not the law.

here is the statute on parking
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0090.html#sec90

You know what , I really not bothered getting into the semantics of the law etc. The fact is that that the offence the OP received a fixed charge for is listed in the rules of the road.
When you next get stopped by a garda after committing and offence, tell him what you told us! Sorry Garda, if it's in the ROTR , it's not the law.

subway

I think you'll find a garda will stop you under a section of the road traffic act

m4r10

OK guys, calm down .

As we stand, it seems the only course of action is to pay the fine and be done with it. At least next time it happens to me, I can always remind her of this fine

Our man in Havana

Park legally the next time or else have the kids walk to school.

subway

You give up too easily :P

Our man in Havana

subway wrote: »

You give up too easily :P

The vast majority do hence why these notices have a high payment rate.

m4r10

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Park legally the next time or else have the kids walk to school.

If you didn't read the first post, the car wasn't parked. But I'll have my 5 year old daughter walk 3km to school starting Monday thanks to your advice :rolleyes:

bladespin

m4r10 wrote: »

If you didn't read the first post, the car wasn't parked. But I'll have my 5 year old daughter walk 3km to school starting Monday thanks to your advice :rolleyes:

Wow, my two year old walks 4km most days, I'd bet your daughter will be fine, or alternatively if you have to drive, surely there are better places to park up/stop/hold up traffic than in front of the school.

CiniO

Here's the relevant piece of law:

Prohibition on Parking at School Entrances


41. (1) A vehicle may not be stopped or parked on a section of a roadway where traffic sign number RRM 010 [Stopping prohibition at school entrances] is provided.


(2) Sub-article (1) shall apply notwithstanding any indication to the contrary given by means of another traffic sign.

Link

m4r10

bladespin wrote: »

Wow, my two year old walks 4km most days, I'd bet your daughter will be fine, or alternatively if you have to drive, surely there are better places to park up/stop/hold up traffic than in front of the school.

I see that this starts to take an ugly turn. All I asked for was advice about the fine, not how my kids should walk to school or if yours walks 4km most days. As I said, it only happened once for her to "park up/stop/hold up traffic" as usually she has the car parked legally. But thanks anyway for your concern about my kid!

Anan1

m4r10 wrote: »

If you didn't read the first post, the car wasn't parked. But I'll have my 5 year old daughter walk 3km to school starting Monday thanks to your advice :rolleyes:

We're going well OT here, but it's a constant source of amazement to me how many parents think letting a 5 year old walk 3000 metres would be a bad thing.

m4r10

CiniO wrote: »

Here's the relevant piece of law:



Link

Thanks, that's all I needed to know.

corktina

i recall a guy in a Range Rover who every day thought that the nice space left by other parents outside the school was ideal as his personal slot. I bet it never occured to him that the markings were there for the safety of the children, not as a drop off zone for him.Would that be the case in this case do you think?

RangeR

corktina wrote: »

Would that be the case in this case do you think?

But but but, she was in a hurry... So it's OK.

Our man in Havana

corktina wrote: »

i recall a guy in a Range Rover who every day thought that the nice space left by other parents outside the school was ideal as his personal slot. I bet it never occured to him that the markings were there for the safety of the children, not as a drop off zone for him.Would that be the case in this case do you think?

It is the Range Rover brigade and their yummy mummy drivers that are menace at schools.
They would drive right up the door if they could, can't be letting their kids get some much needed exercise.

Fair play to the Gardaí for finally bringing this menace to book.

munchkin_utd

CiniO wrote: »

Here's the relevant piece of law:
Link

a law which clearly makes a distinction between stopping and parking.

on clearways and the like "stopping and parking" are prohibited, and the'll be signs indicating this
on double yellow lines "parking" is prohibited (stopping implicitly allowed)

unfortunately amongst the dozens of definitions they dont spell out the difference, but that there is a difference is clearly intended.

And, what the OP did was stop on a double yellow which is allowed as
Stopping (is not equals) Parking

CiniO

munchkin_utd wrote: »

a law which clearly makes a distinction between stopping and parking.

on clearways and the like "stopping and parking" are prohibited, and the'll be signs indicating this
on double yellow lines "parking" is prohibited (stopping implicitly allowed)

unfortunately amongst the dozens of definitions they dont spell out the difference, but that there is a difference is clearly intended.

And, what the OP did was stop on a double yellow which is allowed as
Stopping (is not equals) Parking

You are right.
Assuming then there wasn't a sign RRM010 and it wasn't a clearway, there were no grounds for penalty.

galwaytt

corktina wrote: »

i recall a guy in a Range Rover ...

RangeR wrote: »

But but but,.

ok, do ye know one another, or is the former's comment and the latter's username a complete coincidence ??

m4r10

Thanks munchkin_utd & CiniO, I guess I'll have her phone their complain department.

For the rest of the high morale brigade, the only reason I said she was in a hurry was to highlight that it only happened once and not to say it was OK to do so. Also, if you check the first post, she got already an earful, if I knew you'd be queuing to do it as well, I would've saved myself the trouble. So, whoever wants to vent any further on this or any other issue, I'll be on the after hours forum.

Eric Cartman

people stopping outside schools is on par with taxi drivers as the most annoying and useless traffic obstruction , im glad that theres a law against this and its being enforced

-Corkie-

corktina wrote: »

i recall a guy in a Range Rover who every day thought that the nice space left by other parents outside the school was ideal as his personal slot. I bet it never occured to him that the markings were there for the safety of the children, not as a drop off zone for him.Would that be the case in this case do you think?

I bet you a tenner I know who your talking about here...;)

MugMugs

Anan1 wrote: »

m4r10 wrote: »

If you didn't read the first post, the car wasn't parked. But I'll have my 5 year old daughter walk 3km to school starting Monday thanks to your advice :rolleyes:

We're going well OT here, but it's a constant source of amazement to me how many parents think letting a 5 year old walk 3000 metres would be a bad thing.

We've all run late at one time or another. I wouldn't allow a five year old walk to school alone and if I needed my car then and was late then driving is the option.

I think a lot of people are being a bit unfair here. Hope you get sorted OP

corktina

-Corkie- wrote: »

I bet you a tenner I know who your talking about here...;)

bet you don't Kilbrin National school several years back. Please post the tenner.

(For those of you speculating about Mr RangeR, what makes you think he is the man, why you don't even know what he drives!:)

J K

Parking means to keep or leave stationary.
Doesn't matter if there is none, one or a hundred people in the car.
Doesn't matter if you're stopped for ten seconds or ten minutes.




Legal Definition of parking....
Road Traffic Act 1961. Section 3 - Definitions.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0003.html

johnos1984

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Park legally the next time or else have the kids walk to school.

Aye.

It's shocking the abandonment of cars that takes place outside schools and parents don't seem to realise the danger it poses to every road user and pedestrian, including little Lorcan and Sorcha.

Even worse I've noticed that they liderally drive the car up to the front door of the school to let them out (where I teach anyway).

No wonder the kids are getting so fat, in fact the walk would do the parents some good too

CiniO

J K wrote: »

Parking means to keep or leave stationary.
Doesn't matter if there is none, one or a hundred people in the car.
Doesn't matter if you're stopped for ten seconds or ten minutes.




Legal Definition of parking....
Road Traffic Act 1961. Section 3 - Definitions.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0003.html

But then according to this, stopping by traffic lights, or in traffic jam can be considered parking as well.
That's not right.

-Corkie-

corktina wrote: »

bet you don't Kilbrin National school several years back. Please post the tenner.

(For those of you speculating about Mr RangeR, what makes you think he is the man, why you don't even know what he drives!:)

I actually was thinking it might be a certain builder that built your house..

dr.fuzzenstein

It would seem to me that due to the daily chaos outside schools all over the country, the authorities are making an effort to come down on that sort of thing (down with it, etc...)
That means that everyone will get it in the neck, be it that they only stop for ten seconds, or abandon their Mammy Wagon across a zebra crossing for half an hour.
The OP's case seems harsh, but I'm sure they're not the only one.
Maybe a better effort could have been made in announcing at school beforehand that parking regulations will be enforced to the letter.
Or it could be that they decide to come down on a few randomers for a couple of days and then everything will be back to normal, that sounds more like the usual half-arsed approach taken here.

Our man in Havana

CiniO wrote: »

But then according to this, stopping by traffic lights, or in traffic jam can be considered parking as well.
That's not right.

Stopped in the course of traffic is not parking.

corktina

-Corkie- wrote: »

I actually was thinking it might be a certain builder that built your house..

Willie? No wasn't him....drop by the tenner any time...:D (Farmer...):rolleyes:

CiniO

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Stopped in the course of traffic is not parking.

That's exactly what I was thinking as well.
But in line with regulations quoted before, it's not specified.

Del2005

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Maybe a better effort could have been made in announcing at school beforehand that parking regulations will be enforced to the letter.
Or it could be that they decide to come down on a few randomers for a couple of days and then everything will be back to normal, that sounds more like the usual half-arsed approach taken here.

Why should they inform people who are breaking the law that today we'll enforce it but not tomorrow. They should be doing random schools on a daily basis and not allowing the chaos that exists outside our schools to continue.

They could even issue the lollypop people with cameras and send out fines from these videos.

People going to school and mass are the worst parking offenders I've seen yet get away with it all the time.