'Protected' Raised Bogs Continue to be Obliterated

Jim Martin

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150940440970104&set=a.286536755103.317506.278016275103&type=1

Insect Overlord

Any comments/opinions, or just a link to a picture?

Jim Martin

There is text with the picture & this link:

http://bit.ly/vzfRyX

MarkR

Jim Martin wrote: »

There is text with the picture & this link:

http://bit.ly/vzfRyX

Have you an opinion yourself? I'm not going to trawl through a 66 page pdf of IRELAND’S NATIONAL BIODIVERSITY PLAN. (not shouting. pasted text)

Jim Martin

Here are the IWT's views on the subject:

http://iwt.ie/2011/07/press-release-proposals-to-protect-wetlands-200-years-too-late/

Insect Overlord

Jim Martin wrote: »

Here are the IWT's views on the subject:

http://iwt.ie/2011/07/press-release-proposals-to-protect-wetlands-200-years-too-late/

Are you going to post your own views about this at all? I have to remind posters and viewers, this is a discussion forum. It's not a notice board for causes and campaigns.

Jim Martin

I would tend to agree with the IWT. I think a lot of people have very little understanding about the essentiality of biodiversity in a sustainable world..

Tora Bora

Jim Martin wrote: »

I would tend to agree with the IWT. I think a lot of people have very little understanding about the essentiality of biodiversity in a sustainable world..

The bogs issue is just another bone for the "anti everything", brigade to rattle on about.
Same tree huggers, are PRO wind farms, until same wind farms are being constructed in their area. Same people are up to their necks in the anti Shell protest in Mayo. Same people are anti live cattle exports.
Same people are anti roads being built.
What are they actually for, I have never quite figured out!!!

Lady Chatterton

Please forgive me Jim, I'm not entirely up to speed on this issue but I've heard Ming Flanagan talk about people losing their rights to cut turf in their own bogs and the financial loss that they will suffer as a result.

So can you explain somethings for me please, are all bogs affected or is it certain bogs have been identified for conservation?

Many people including members of my own extended family have cut turf for generations, are they compensated and what sort of compensation do they receive? Obviously, in the current economic climate, I can see the attractiveness of having your own fuel source.

CptSternn

If they are protected there has to be a good reason.

Lady Chatterton

I just had a look at Luke "Ming" Flanagan's website there. (He is a independent TD for Leitrim Roscommon and Spokesperson for Turf Cutters and Contractors Association) He has given details of the compensation package. (€1000 a year for fuel for 15 years or a delivery of 10 tonnes of turf a year per household).

Turf cutters stand firm in rejecting compensation

16th Nov '11

TURF CUTTERS ARE standing firm in their stance that they will not accept compensation from the government and will continue cutting from their domestic bogs.

Deputy Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan, who is spokesperson for the Turf Cutters and Contractors Association, told Morning Ireland this morning that turf cutters rejected the latest offer from the Government.

Under this offer, domestic turf cutters can choose to accept compensation of €1000 a year for fuel for 15 years or a delivery of 10 tonnes of turf a year per household.

Deputy Flanagan said that the offer of 10 tonnes of turf was not enough and that it would only apply for three to four years.

He said that it is usually more than one person taking turf from one domestic bog, so the compensation money would be split between all the users.

Deputy Flanagan said that in the past the government has reneged on such deals and that 500 people are waiting to get paid from scheme nearly 10 years ago.

Turf cutters are currently putting a plan together to be submitted to the European Union.

Deputy Flanagan said the government should listen to the turf cutters’ plan and let them continue cutting turf.

He also said “if they’re that flush with money” they should give the compensation to special needs assistants, or people who have been in Magdalene laundries.

Consultations are continuing between the TCCA and domestic turf cutters and Deputy Flanagan said just 1 per cent of those he had spoken to are happy to accept compensation.

http://www.lukemingflanagan.ie/posts/news/in-the-press/turf-cutters-stand-firm-in-rejecting-compensation-2/

Eleganza

Raised bogs are more endangered by the well drained agricultural land around them than domestic turf cutting.
Artificial flooding is being used to sustain raised bogs which would otherwise dry out.
tyrrellspass, miltownpass, etc.... are the names of passes through bogland in the midlands. during the middle ages they were of strategic importance as the only means of exiting the pale due to it being encircled by the bog of allen. now all that land in leinster is relatively dry farmland.
All this land is now well drained so the bogs are drying out and the meaning of the town's name has now been lost in history.

Conservationists are misguidedly trying to preserve land in an unnatural state and are trying to landscape the countryside in to what they perceive to be an idyllic natural state.
some raised bogs will remain if left alone due to natural topography in the area, others will cease to be bog if left alone but conservationists don't want to accept that.

http://www.wetlands.org/RSIS/_COP9Directory/Directory/3ie014.html

joela

Sorry but what is that link supposed to tell us?

Drainage is a huge problem for bogs but turf cutting played/is playing a large part in it and the "conservationists" as you so nicely put it are also aware that this is not the only problem. Stopping the cutting on the bogs will assist towards conserving the habitat at the very least.

You could stop with the "conservationists" label as well, there are lots of ordinary people out there who value these habitats and don't want to see them all destroyed. Most of the scientists involved from the official end of things are not "conservationists" but ecologists, hydrologists, ecohydrologists and other such highly trained professionals. It may also surprise you to know many of these people come from the country and are sons and daughters of farmers. Many are from the city but to dismiss all as unfamiliar with country life is hugely unfair.

Eleganza

They're not conservationists, they are preservationists looking to maintain nature in an unnatural state.
I just searched this thread and the first reference to city is from the poster Joela.
I'm from the heart of Ireland's peatland.

How are they going to protect the bog land from the next ice age in 15000 years time or when Ireland drifts elsewhere with continental drift.
There is no constancy in nature and to seek to preserve one state in perpetuity is folly.

ArtSmart

something on rte 'bout that tonight. The Netherlands forked out money years back to keep certain bogs - in Ireland.

apparently Ireland is the only place in Western Europe with full 'high bogs'.

Not sure if the needs of the few outweigh something described in those terms.

But i dont really know enough about it. Although I imagine the scientists who want to stop the cutting are not acting for profit, or just to have something to do of a day.

tend to trust scientists more than those who want cheap fuel. Generally speaking.

Eleganza

I trust nature more than scientists. water will always find it's level.

Eleganza

joela wrote: »

Drainage is a huge problem for bogs

Down with all those farmers and their selfish interest in making their land more productive. It should be banned I tell ya.

redzerologhlen

Eleganza wrote: »

Down with all those farmers and their selfish interest in making their land more productive. It should be banned I tell ya.

Simple....let the people eat bog:D

BeeDI

Eleganza wrote: »

I trust nature more than scientists. water will always find it's level.

+1. Us farmers should know. We have our whole lives spent running from water. Either coming up from beneath us, or lashing down on top of use

Nothing worse than armchair, weekend warriors, in leafy town suburbs, spoofing about how the countryside should be managed:eek:

CptSternn

So the issue revolves around water displacement then? That is something that people often over look and do not realise issues surrounding it until it direct effects them.

For example, the millions spent putting in the new pumps and flood wall in Ennis. Now the river floods the other half of town. No one seemed to fathom that idea until it happened.

Tora Bora

CptSternn wrote: »

So the issue revolves around water displacement then? That is something that people often over look and do not realise issues surrounding it until it direct effects them.

For example, the millions spent putting in the new pumps and flood wall in Ennis. Now the river floods the other half of town. No one seemed to fathom that idea until it happened.

It was well educated, engineers and town planners, who gave the green light to turn teh Fergus flood plain into a a concrete and tarmac collection bowl!
Same kind of "elite", are now "deciding", from their air conditioned offices where, when and who can cut turf!!

redzerologhlen

Too many button pushers in this country who are totally disconnected from what their job is. As a matter of interest is there any raised bogs in clare, I thought there was only blanket bogs here...

Lady Chatterton

redzerologhlen wrote: »

As a matter of interest is there any raised bogs in clare, I thought there was only blanket bogs here...

Apologies in advance for the silly question :o:o spot the Townie

Anyway, can you explain difference between a raised bog and a blanket bog and why one would be more valuable than another from a conservation point of view?? Thanks

joela

Tora Bora wrote: »

It was well educated, engineers and town planners, who gave the green light to turn teh Fergus flood plain into a a concrete and tarmac collection bowl!
Same kind of "elite", are now "deciding", from their air conditioned offices where, when and who can cut turf!!

Don't be daft will you, the planners are planners not scientists and most of them were old school and badly trained and also susceptible to the pressure from councillors with their own money making agendas. Engineers look at the world in a different way from scientists, they don't really think about why but more like how.

I am not elite and I don't work in an air conditioned office neither but I do want a say in the destruction of the natural heritage of my country. I have no problem with people cutting turf traditionally on existing banks in non-designated sites which is low impact. I do however take issue with legally protected sites being destroyed, the law is the law.

While water may always find its level it is not necessarily in the places where we want to be which has been proven time and again by canalisation, by flooding of badly sited developments of floodplains and of areas of soil being washed away due to drains concentrating flows on particular areas.

Mrs D007, not stupid questions at all and I hope I can help a bit. Raised bogs are largely located in the midlands of Ireland and form in a different manner to blanket bog. Both types of habitat are listed on Annex I of the EU Habitats Directive and are in fact priority habitats on this Annex. Priority natural habitat types means natural habitat types in danger
of disappearence link. So in fact neither habitat deserves more protection than the other but Raised Bogs formed from infilling of lakes, followed by fen and eventually raised bog and are therefore sources of deep peat and hydrologically complex. Blanket bogs on the other hand do not have the same depth of peat and are most often found in upland situations and do not lend themselves to mass peat extraction. Therefore raised bogs are more valuable to the turf cutters commercially extracting peat and also are more easily damaged due to their function as giant sponges in terms of holding and filtering water. Once drainage begins to allow cutting or other activities then the change in water flows also begins and this starts the drying out process which eventually stops the continuing growth of the raised central dome. Ok hope that made sense

Lady Chatterton

joela wrote: »

Mrs D007, not stupid questions at all and I hope I can help a bit. Raised bogs are largely located in the midlands of Ireland and form in a different manner to blanket bog. Both types of habitat are listed on Annex I of the EU Habitats Directive and are in fact priority habitats on this Annex. Priority natural habitat types means natural habitat types in danger
of disappearence link. So in fact neither habitat deserves more protection than the other but Raised Bogs formed from infilling of lakes, followed by fen and eventually raised bog and are therefore sources of deep peat and hydrologically complex. Blanket bogs on the other hand do not have the same depth of peat and are most often found in upland situations and do not lend themselves to mass peat extraction. Therefore raised bogs are more valuable to the turf cutters commercially extracting peat and also are more easily damaged due to their function as giant sponges in terms of holding and filtering water. Once drainage begins to allow cutting or other activities then the change in water flows also begins and this starts the drying out process which eventually stops the continuing growth of the raised central dome. Ok hope that made sense

Thanks very much Joela for taking the time to explain that, I really appreciate it very much

Just another question if you don't mind - Bord Na Mona are based in the midlands, I presume that they were extracting turf for years on a massive scale from raised bogs, I had a look at their website earlier and I see that they appear to be diversifying into other areas such as Clean Air & Clean Water Technologies and Waste Management etc. They also are now offering briquettes that are peat (60%) and wood (40%) based so I presume that all of this means that they have accepted that their days of extracting turf are nearing an end?

Or am I wrong? Will they still be allowed to cut an certain amount? Again, I'm sorry if these are silly questions, I'm just anxious to get an understanding of the situation

joela

No problems at all but I may not be doing it all justice by being as concise as possible on here, peatlands are very complex systems. Bord na Mona aka the Irish Government destroyed vast tracts of raised bogs in the mid to late 1900s but I suppose at that time not much was known about the function of bogs or that they would eventually run out. Anyway Bord na Mona are indeed reaching the end of their days of mass peat extraction and once their current holdings are exhausted then they will not be able to produce peat products anymore. As a result they are diversifying into alternative energy sources and sustainable products, they also employ one full-time ecologist and several contract ecologists to monitor existing and past sites and also to oversee the rehabilitation works they are carrying out. The raised bog system cannot obviously be restored as the peat is all gone and the site drained but they have flooded large areas of exhausted peat fields to encourage wetland birds with the aim of improving biodiversity on these sites. Their biodiversity action plan was launched last year link and gives details on how they envisage the future of their peatlands in terms of biodiversity. So while Bord na Mona destroyed a lot previously they are not and have not been cutting designated sites, as far as I am aware all bogs of scientific conservation interest were handed back to the government over 10 years ago. Also BnM have to provide documents and personnel as described above in an attempt to make good their impacts.

Lady Chatterton

Joela - Many thanks for all the information you have provided this evening, it is greatly appreciated Mrs D

Jim Martin

MrsD007 wrote: »

Joela - Many thanks for all the information you have provided this evening, it is greatly appreciated Mrs D

Yes, indeed - I wish I could have explained it half as well!

Hondo75

This a recent aerial survey of damaged done on protected sites.
Its just the same as rainforest destruction..
http://www.friendsoftheirishenvironment.net/cmsfiles/files/library/peat_aerialsurvey_turfcutting_sacs_2012.pdf

joela

Hondo75 wrote: »

This a recent aerial survey of damaged done on protected sites.
Its just the same as rainforest destruction..
http://www.friendsoftheirishenvironment.net/cmsfiles/files/library/peat_aerialsurvey_turfcutting_sacs_2012.pdf

The previous link is for the report and this is the link for the aerial photos https://picasaweb.google.com/105919722829010212847