Fired without warning after 4 years!

cormie

Putting this here for a friend who was working with a security company for the past 4 or 4.5 years, ideal worker, rarely a sick day, great punctuality etc etc. He never had any warnings through his 4.5 years with the company and then when he was on a certain site doing security on a cold morning, he moved a heating device from it's location, closer to himself to give him a bit of heat. This was seen as a breach of health and safety blah blah and he was subsequently fired straight away.

Considering he has been in full time employment with this company for 4.5 years and has never received so much as a verbal warning, would this be classe as unfair dismissal? He's not Irish and may have been seen as somebody who wouldn't know their rights so I'm putting this here in the hope somebody might have some advice. He's now unemployed over what seems to be a controversial decision by his employers.

Any feedback appreciated

Nody

Well I'll assume he got fired due to gross misconduct but was there a hearing etc. before he got fired?

vikingdub

cormie wrote: »

Putting this here for a friend who was working with a security company for the past 4 or 4.5 years, ideal worker, rarely a sick day, great punctuality etc etc. He never had any warnings through his 4.5 years with the company and then when he was on a certain site doing security on a cold morning, he moved a heating device from it's location, closer to himself to give him a bit of heat. This was seen as a breach of health and safety blah blah and he was subsequently fired straight away.

Considering he has been in full time employment with this company for 4.5 years and has never received so much as a verbal warning, would this be classe as unfair dismissal? He's not Irish and may have been seen as somebody who wouldn't know their rights so I'm putting this here in the hope somebody might have some advice. He's now unemployed over what seems to be a controversial decision by his employers.

Any feedback appreciated

Could you expand on this please? Was it a case of moving a portable heater, which is designed to be moved, or was the heater "fixed" in position and not designed to be moved?

In these situations the devil is always in the detail. However, on the, limited facts, you provide the decision to summarily dismiss the employee certainly appears to be unfair and even in cases of gross misconduct an employer is obliged to follow a fair process prior to dismissal. Generally this will involve an investigation into the incident with the employee given an opportunity to defend his/her actions. In the context of the Unfair Dismissals legislation, all dismissals are regarded as unfair until proved otherwise by the employer. An employer who has not followed a fair process will find the dismissal difficult if not impossible to defend.

If you do not wish to post the full details, feel free to pm me.

mickman

yeah a plug in heater is obviously meant to be moved but if it was something else then that would be different

cormie

Thanks for the replies The "heating device" makes it kind of tricky I guess, it was basically one of these type things: http://www.scottsofstow.co.uk/Mini-Kitchen/Product1_22051_-1_18429_10551

So not definitely not "fixed" and easy enough to move, but not really the typical thing you'd use to keep yourself warm either. I believe it was the hobs being used for the heat.

I do believe that he went for some kind of meeting before actually being fired, I'm not sure about that but will try find out. He protested against the decision though and is trying to get advice from a local citizens advice bureau. He has no money for anything more such as a solicitor.

Cuddlesworth

cormie wrote: »

Thanks for the replies The "heating device" makes it kind of tricky I guess, it was basically one of these type things: http://www.scottsofstow.co.uk/Mini-Kitchen/Product1_22051_-1_18429_10551

So not definitely not "fixed" and easy enough to move, but not really the typical thing you'd use to keep yourself warm either. I believe it was the hobs being used for the heat.

I do believe that he went for some kind of meeting before actually being fired, I'm not sure about that but will try find out. He protested against the decision though and is trying to get advice from a local citizens advice bureau. He has no money for anything more such as a solicitor.

That's not a heating device, its a cooker. If he was using it as a heating device, since its heat is directional(up) it would be a gross health and safety risk.

Was he warned about using it as a heater?

cormie

Yeah I know it's not a heater, but it's a device which generates heat which is the simple reason he was using it. I don't believe he was warned about using it.

vikingdub

cormie wrote: »

Thanks for the replies The "heating device" makes it kind of tricky I guess, it was basically one of these type things: http://www.scottsofstow.co.uk/Mini-Kitchen/Product1_22051_-1_18429_10551

So not definitely not "fixed" and easy enough to move, but not really the typical thing you'd use to keep yourself warm either. I believe it was the hobs being used for the heat.

I do believe that he went for some kind of meeting before actually being fired, I'm not sure about that but will try find out. He protested against the decision though and is trying to get advice from a local citizens advice bureau. He has no money for anything more such as a solicitor.

As I said earlier, the devil is in the detail.

The device shown above is a cooker, it is not a heater and should not under any circumstances be used as such, nor should it be moved to enable further inappropriate use.

Rather than summary dismissal as you stated in your op, the employee has, in fact, had a disciplinary meeting with his employer. Again without being in possession of the full facts, it would appear that the employer has grounds for dismissal. The activities of your friend could have resulted in serious injury to himself and/or others and could also have led to a serious fire at the property that his company is being paid to protect. My sympathy is rapidly diminishing as the facts emerge.

vikingdub

cormie wrote: »

Yeah I know it's not a heater, but it's a device which generates heat which is the simple reason he was using it. I don't believe he was warned about using it.

If he needs to be warned that a cooker is not a heater and should not be used as such, he should not be in employment.

Cuddlesworth

vikingdub wrote: »

If he needs to be warned that a cooker is not a heater and should not be used as such, he should not be in employment.

Maybe, but if he was its the final nail in the coffin.

cormie

I know what you mean, I was also a bit surprised that he used it for a heater when I heard it myself, but is it genuinely enough to be immediately fired from 4.5 years of employment after no previous warnings etc? As far as I know, he was in his own security area which other people didn't have access to and as far as I know, was always there when the device was in use.

vikingdub

cormie wrote: »

I know what you mean, I was also a bit surprised that he used it for a heater when I heard it myself, but is it genuinely enough to be immediately fired from 4.5 years of employment after no previous warnings etc? As far as I know, he was in his own security area which other people didn't have access to and as far as I know, was always there when the device was in use.

He was not "immediately fired". Based on the information you provided, he had a disciplinary meeting before the decision to terminate his employment was taken. He was clearly in breach of the most elementary and fundamental health and safety rules and his actions could have had catastrophic consequences. His employer has a duty to the other employees, the client and people living in the immediate area, who could have been injured or worse. I would really like to know the full facts but I would hazard a guess that this is not the first time that this employee had broken the rules.

He could take a case to the EAT and might, just might win if the procedure followed by the employer is deemed, by the tribunal, to have been unfair. However, the tribunal will take into account the contribution that an employee has to his/her dismissal and will reduce any award accordingly.

cormie

Thanks again for the reply. Yep, I'm not aware of the full facts myself so can't really say. I've shown this thread to the guy in question, maybe he'll post here with more info himself but it may be difficult for him to explain fully given that English isn't his first language. This also leads me to fear that if there was a meeting after the incident, maybe he wasn't able to explain himself properly then either.

Rhys Essien

Was his job solely to sit in this office/cabin all day.If so, according to health and safety,there should be sufficient heating in place/provided.

I was only asked recently by health and safety If there was addequite heating in my workplace.

It seems to me this company are only trying to save four years of a redundancy payout.

vikingdub

cormie wrote: »

Thanks again for the reply. Yep, I'm not aware of the full facts myself so can't really say. I've shown this thread to the guy in question, maybe he'll post here with more info himself but it may be difficult for him to explain fully given that English isn't his first language. This also leads me to fear that if there was a meeting after the incident, maybe he wasn't able to explain himself properly then either.

Surely it was a requirement of the position that he had a high level of English language competency, both written and spoken?

Gmol

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Was his job solely to sit in this office/cabin all day.If so, according to health and safety,there should be sufficient heating in place/provided.

I was only asked recently by health and safety If there was addequite heating in my workplace.

It seems to me this company are only trying to save four years of a redundancy payout.

That's his possible opportunity for appealing his dismissal, the company don't seem to have acted outside the law otherwise IMO

cormie

I'm not sure what was required of him on this site. Some times he has to stay in a security area and observe CCTV etc, then every so often may have to walk around to check the place out. I don't know if this qualifies for needing adequate heating. He will explain this better hopefully.

A security position wouldn't necessarily require a high level of English. Although he would be fluent enough, he wouldn't be advanced in that he may not fully understand some things, especially if there was any legal jargon spoken if he was at a meeting after, the same way in a social situation, he might take a while to get a joke etc.

wmpdd3

HAve a look here:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/temperature.htm

Its the UK version but the HSA have something similar. We complained years ago about a shop that was always 32c inside but there is only a minimum working temperature, not a maximum.

TBH, that is you friend only hope, if it can be prove he was asked to work in sub standard conditions and he resorted to using a cooker as a heating device, he may have a case. But he could still be repremanded such as suspension, de-motion, etc.

cormie

That would probably be clutching at straws though? I mean if a carpenter has to first fix a new build in the middle of winter, likelihood is it'll be freezing out, but that's hardly against the law is it?

Spunk84

The only question you should ask your friend, " was he every given a company health and safety course" or did the company inform him about health and safety standards in a booklet or face to face,with a signed document stating that he understood? If the answer is "no" then he has the company for unfair dissmal. He should get redundencey as well !

vikingdub

Spunk84 wrote: »

The only question you should ask your friend, " was he every given a company health and safety course" or did the company inform him about health and safety standards in a booklet or face to face,with a signed document stating that he understood? If the answer is "no" then he has the company for unfair dissmal. He should get redundencey as well !

A lot depends on the contract of employment and how induction is conducted. An employer is not obliged to prove a "company health and safety course", it is sufficient to have a safety statement and H&S policy and to direct the employee to this at induction or later. The employee is then asked to sign a document confirming that he has read and understood the policy. However, failure to do so would not protect him from dismissal in the circumstances outlined here.

The Safety, Health and Welfare at Work (General Application) Regulations 2007 (the 2007 Regulations) which were introduced pursuant to the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act 2005 (the 2005 Act), deal with the issue of temperatures in the workplace.

Minimum temperatures for sedentary work are set out in the regulations but this security guard seems to be more of an outdoor worker than an indoor worker.

Employers are required to provide appropriate personal protective equipment for employee and it is recommended that employees working outdoors during cold or wet weather should be provided with weatherproof or waterproof clothing.

Minimum facilities for security workers agreed by the Social Partners at the JLC (Joint Labour Committee) and specified in Employment Regulation Order, 2001 are:

• Protective Clothing

• Toilet facilities

• Cooking Facilities

• Heating/Lighting

• First Aid

• Monitoring for Safety

• Shelter

Security guards working on a building site are required to hold a current safe pass and are required to:

• take reasonable care for their own safety and health and others affected by their acts or omissions

• use appliances, equipment or personal protective equipment in a manner so as to provide the protection intended

• report all defects affecting safety and health to their employer as soon as possible.

It is possible that he might win an unfair dismissal case on procedural grounds. In addition to fair procedure, the EAT also looks at reasonable behaviour and dragging a cooking stove around a hut to use as a heater could not be regarded as reasonable in any circumstances. As I mentioned in an earlier post the amount of any award will take into account the contribution that the employee made to his dismissal.

A redundancy situation only exists where the position that the employee held ceases to exist, this is not a redundancy situation.

Spunk84

vikingdub wrote: »

A redundancy situation only exists where the position that the employee held ceases to exist, this is not a redundancy situation.

I would actual disagree with you. Today's employment laws have changed and any letting go of an employee who has had 2 years service has the right for redundancy. Now as this is a third party story and the fact that the "cooker" looks like a microwave :eek: i feel that there is a whole lot more to this story than what is being said.

Also, seriously who gets fired for moving a toaster oven:eek: maybe he was on his last legs and it was just what they wanted but i don't know the facts so cant say "ya or nay" but the whole story sounds fishy

cormie

I'm just going on what I've been told. I'd have no reason to hide any facts as if any action was to be taken, then both parties involved would be aware of the facts surrounding the situation so there's no point giving my friend false hope by not telling things as they were.

I was speaking to him again today briefly about it. He said that the heater in the place was broken and he brought the appliance to where he was. He got no warnings not to use it which he disobeyed and used again. He was told by the manager to put it back and he did this and didn't use it again.

EthicRanger

Hello, everybody.
I wonder, why i didn't think about place this thread myself. It's now over 2.5month when i'm still running internal appeal with company. A lot delays, some of them are because, i agreed to resign on disciplinary meeting, when no time was given to think, but then legal advices in citizenship information and companies letter, asking are you sure i want to resign, led me to start kind of appeal.

Such a nice comments and of course thanks to Cormie, who placed this thread with his initiative.
I THINK I'LL AWARD 1-2 best posts in this thread with 20EUR, after will be clear, how the internal appeal will finished. It soon should be finished.

I want to post my arguments, which were given to company recently.
My English, you can see ( part "Reasons for Appeal", were checked and edited strongly by one person, so it's not my language)

"The incident in question:
Early Saturday morning 27/08 (shift started 7am, was a surprisingly coldish morning as for summer. Also later I found ventilation in another side of corridor was set on maximum ‘set at 5 out of 5’, which caused too windy conditions). I decided to bring a pluggable microwave looking cooker closer to me from one part of ‘S’ shape corridor to another. In general, I'm used to cold. I'm not from South countries and more than 1 year I live in pretty cold house in Bray no problem ( welcome to visit ).


1. Reasons for appeal:

I.1) If it would be sackable offence on a safety issue, I should have been fired instantly. Because on the occasion concerned a fire could have developed from instance. To prevent a fire developing on any other occasion after this situation as a safety aspect, I should have been fired immediately by Duty Manager or so. But I was left to continue that shift and shift in same place next morning.

I.2) I guess my case was treated in the need of situation. The manager told at the time of disciplinary meeting, that the situation on that moment between Irish Rail and company was not the best, also the Irish Rail manager acted more than he needed ( he attached all highest Irish Rail bosses to email, which included report about my incident) . I guess, firing me sounded as much better action in the eyes of client, instead of spoken or written warning, which I never had. 2.5 months passed from that day. How is a situation between and Irish Rail looks now? Isn’t in any way looks a bit as I was in a ‘scapegoat’ situation?

I.3) I was prepared to go to work after Disciplinary meeting, having working clothes on me at meet up, which shows, that I didn’t think, that in any way, that because I wasn’t fired, I thought I would be offered to resign. Which shows I do not believe this to be as serious an issue. After that I moved a cooker from one part of ‘S’ shape corridor to another and switched on ( mechanical timed On ) temporary.

I.4) I’ve been an exemplary employee for this company over 5years. Also I was in different working environment, which I normally used to. It’s unusual these new working conditions should end up being the circumstances, which have effectively caused me to fire myself by request.

I.5) The only general (non site related) training I received was Induction training over 5years ago with ... (first time overbought company) . The main point I remember from that, is to use common sense. It worked for me…till this incident.
The company was overbought twice, during over 5 year my work history. Is their any additional training possible, which would help to adjust to new company?



2. Other my reasons or health and safety points I would like to mention , which led me to decision, are:

1) I have a cracked lip after few days. I felt that it was starting Saturday.
Hadn't them for long time (made photos in phone, but you still will see cracks Wed 31/08 in 11:30 - 12h meeting ) . It proves, I was cold.

2) Heater was not working (it's small heater but with conjunction of another kitchen heater, which is further from place, could do a job of temperature compensation) . I’ve reported this to one of main guys of site, name ... about this.

3) This was my second time on that site (the first was much shorter). It was first shift on weekends either, so I didn’t know how many travelling people to expect on weekend, and decided to stay in customer service part of ‘S’ shape corridor, rather than in another side (where originally cooker was plugged in) by a little bit heating myself up.


4) Nobody gave me additional precaution or specific training about Irish Rail sites and stuff. The rotation of staff is very big, but there are no any additional signs warning about stuff on site. Acting against them, would be more reasonable to stronger disciplinary action.
It’s not mentioned, that this cooker belong to Irish Rail either. There are a few notices in site regarding other stuff , like ( "don't turn off", "leave plugged", "wash, if you use" ...etc ) yet this machine has no identification sticker, stating, that it belongs to Irish Rail. ( I remember, because I checked all sides of it, looking for max power written on it . It's 3100W max).

5) I could use some exercises instead, which I would like, yet still recovering from small car accident (in June ) and my back issue and on the latest 3 visits to Chiropractor (David from aaaa Chiropractors Wed17, Mon22 and Fri26 of August ) I was advised not to do extreme moves after his sessions. Keeping my back warmer was recommended.

6) I well apologised twice to assistant manager, who visited, also mentioned him, that I have Master degree in Electrotechnics and Automatics, so I know the risks.
Also mentioned that it's not a practice of everybody, I choose to do this myself, because it was too cold and body was requiring.

7) Yes, I have Master degree in Electrotechnics and Automatics.

7) Cooker is all metal with heating parts well isolated and safe. All surface is way colder than any other heater, except on top 2 cooking rings.
Also it has a timer (mechanical with clicking sound) with maximum 60minutes like microwave type ones have. So it's not most pleasurable to use due clicking sound, yet for health issue, I felt, I needed. I turned it on 3 times : for ~30min, then 15 and another 10 minutes. After that I felt, that no needed as I also found, that air conditioner is working and I guessed can heat up.

8) ( Saving arguments (instead of using few heaters further from me, better smaller, close to me ) which made sense )
I didn't use it on maximum power and set on lowest temperature 100C from it's range of 100-250, because I brought it close to my back and side.
I didn't use it long, just in morning to compensate coldish temperature. On arrival of assistant manager ~12:30 it was totally cooled down.

9) I'm not cooking and not drink tea (or very rarely when somebody offers) including work), because I’m eating uncooked foods ( I am one of organisers of Irish Raw Food meetup.com group ) , so potentially I am in a way better position of less chances, that something might happen regarding using cookers, kettles or other heat type technique.




Recommendations:

To Irish Rail: If Irish Rail stressing on to usage their stuff, it would be recommended to mark them.

To Company:
I had no training on Irish Rail sites. Maybe additional training, to who works there would be good, because Mike (or Michael) who works on Site said, he saw ~14guys the last month on the site.
Obvious, that it might bring some more issues.
For example another potential issue might be:
According to the main (polish) guy, who works in site, we should wear orange Irish Rail Safety Vests.
So no site were no orange vest issued, nor anybody additionally mentioned about this on site.

Once again BIG SORRY for this issue and hope it will be sorted successfully.
10/11/2011
To Your Health and Inner Peace,
M A"

vikingdub

Spunk84 wrote: »

I would actual disagree with you. Today's employment laws have changed and any letting go of an employee who has had 2 years service has the right for redundancy. Now as this is a third party story and the fact that the "cooker" looks like a microwave :eek: i feel that there is a whole lot more to this story than what is being said.

Also, seriously who gets fired for moving a toaster oven:eek: maybe he was on his last legs and it was just what they wanted but i don't know the facts so cant say "ya or nay" but the whole story sounds fishy

What makes you think that?

The law is quite clear in its definition of a redundancy situation and there is a very clear difference between an employee having their employment terminated and a situation where that termination is due to redundancy.

The Redundancy Payments Acts, 1967 to 2007 define a redundancy as the dismissal of an employee by an employer, not related to the employee concerned, and the dismissal results "wholly or mainly" from one of the following situations:

Where an employer has ceased, or intends to cease, to carry on the business for the purposes for which the employee was employed by him, or has ceased or intends to cease to carry on that business in the place where the employee was so employed;

Where the requirements of that business for an employee to carry out work of a particular kind in the place where he was so employed have ceased or diminished or are expected to cease or diminish; or

Where the employer has decided to carry on the business with fewer or no employees whether by requiring the work for which the employee had been employed (or had been doing before his dismissal) to be done by other employers or otherwise; or

Where an employer has decided that the work for which the employee has been employed (or had been doing before his dismissal), should henceforth be done in a different manner for which the employee is not sufficiently qualified or trained; or

Where an employer has decided that the work for which the employee has been employed (or had been doing before his dismissal) should be done by a person who is also capable of doing other work for which the employee is not sufficiently qualified or trained.

It is the job and not the person, that is made redundant. The redundancy must be for reasons not related to the employee concerned and must not be merely making way for an alternative employee to do the same job. It is a key principle of the law of redundancy that the role no longer exists, not the person.

In the case being discussed here, it was a dismissal for cause and not a redundancy situation.

The issue here is whether or not the dismissal was fair.

vikingdub

The English in your post is quite difficult to understand so let me summarise my understanding of the situation.

1. You have worked for a security company for 5 years, during your period of employment the owneship of the company has changed 3 times and you have been transferred to the new companies.

2. As a security guard you are assigned to various different sites.

3. On the occasion in question you were at an unfamiliar site, which I gather was part of a railway station.

4. The air conditioning in the area that you were working in was set at high and rather than change the setting you decided to bring a cooker from the cooking area to where you were sitting for heat.

5. Your management discovered your action and called you to a disciplinary meeting.

6. At the disciplinary meeting you resigned.

7. Since your resignation, on the advice of the Citizens Information Service, you have lodged an appeal.

I trust my understanding is correct.

I will address each of the items of your appeal one by one.

• Reasons for appeal:
  
  I.1) If it would be sackable offence on a safety issue, I should have been fired instantly. Because on the occasion concerned a fire could have developed from instance. To prevent a fire developing on any other occasion after this situation as a safety aspect, I should have been fired immediately by Duty Manager or so. But I was left to continue that shift and shift in same place next morning.

I am not sure what you mean here, who discovered that you had moved the cooker? Was it a manager from the security company you work for or was it a the Duty Manager of Irish Rail?

Had your employer fired you immediately that would have been an unfair dismissal. An employer is obliged to investigate the issues leading to the dismissal and to offer the employee the opportunity to defend his/her actions. I assume that the duty manager told you to return the cooker to its correct location and advised you that disciplinary action would be taken. This is was the correct action to take.


I.2) I guess my case was treated in the need of situation. The manager told at the time of disciplinary meeting, that the situation on that moment between Irish Rail and company was not the best, also the Irish Rail manager acted more than he needed ( he attached all highest Irish Rail bosses to email, which included report about my incident) . I guess, firing me sounded as much better action in the eyes of client, instead of spoken or written warning, which I never had. 2.5 months passed from that day. How is a situation between and Irish Rail looks now? Isn’t in any way looks a bit as I was in a ‘scapegoat’ situation?

Did you resign or were you dismissed, this is not clear? Do you mean that 2.5 months after the disciplinary meeting you were dismissed? Assuming you were dismissed and that the input of the client organisation influenced the decision to dismiss, this is not necessarily scapegoating you. The security company is obliged to ensure that the health and safety rules of the organisation are adhered to.



I.3) I was prepared to go to work after Disciplinary meeting, having working clothes on me at meet up, which shows, that I didn’t think, that in any way, that because I wasn’t fired, I thought I would be offered to resign. Which shows I do not believe this to be as serious an issue. After that I moved a cooker from one part of ‘S’ shape corridor to another and switched on ( mechanical timed On ) temporary.

The fact that you moved the cooker and used it as a heater is the issue here, a cooker is not a heater and you should not have moved it in the first place.

I.4) I’ve been an exemplary employee for this company over 5years. Also I was in different working environment, which I normally used to. It’s unusual these new working conditions should end up being the circumstances, which have effectively caused me to fire myself by request.

Regardless of it being a new site, I am sure that during your five years of employment you worked at many sites. It is not permissible to move a cooker and use it as a heater at any site.

I.5) The only general (non site related) training I received was Induction training over 5years ago with ... (first time overbought company) . The main point I remember from that, is to use common sense. It worked for me…till this incident.
The company was overbought twice, during over 5 year my work history. Is their any additional training possible, which would help to adjust to new company?


Your common sense should have told you that it is not acceptable to move a cooker to provide heat under any circumstances.

The change in ownership of the company resulted in your being transferred to a new employer with the same terms and conditions of employment under the TUPE legislation and such a transfer would not require any training. .

2. Other my reasons or health and safety points I would like to mention , which led me to decision, are:

1) I have a cracked lip after few days. I felt that it was starting Saturday.
Hadn't them for long time (made photos in phone, but you still will see cracks Wed 31/08 in 11:30 - 12h meeting ) . It proves, I was cold.

This is irrelevant – a cold sore is caused by a virus and has nothing to do with temperature. The incident took place during the Summer and while you felt cold the company you were working for had maintained the air conditioning at a certain level.

2) Heater was not working (it's small heater but with conjunction of another kitchen heater, which is further from place, could do a job of temperature compensation) . I’ve reported this to one of main guys of site, name ... about this.

Again I am not sure what you mean, was there a heater at your work station? Was the heater at your work station not working? When had you reported the fact that the heater was not working? Who did you report it to?

3) This was my second time on that site (the first was much shorter). It was first shift on weekends either, so I didn’t know how many travelling people to expect on weekend, and decided to stay in customer service part of ‘S’ shape corridor, rather than in another side (where originally cooker was plugged in) by a little bit heating myself up.

Where had you been told to work?


4) Nobody gave me additional precaution or specific training about Irish Rail sites and stuff. The rotation of staff is very big, but there are no any additional signs warning about stuff on site. Acting against them, would be more reasonable to stronger disciplinary action.
It’s not mentioned, that this cooker belong to Irish Rail either. There are a few notices in site regarding other stuff , like ( "don't turn off", "leave plugged", "wash, if you use" ...etc ) yet this machine has no identification sticker, stating, that it belongs to Irish Rail. ( I remember, because I checked all sides of it, looking for max power written on it . It's 3100W max).

The ownership of the cooker is irrelevant, a cooker should only be used for the purpose for which it is designed, in other words for cooking. It is not a heater and no reasonable person would agree that it was acceptable to remove it from the “cooking” area and bring it to a public area to use as a heater. It is quite possible that a member of the public made a complaint to Irish rail. I know I would.

5) I could use some exercises instead, which I would like, yet still recovering from small car accident (in June ) and my back issue and on the latest 3 visits to Chiropractor (David from aaaa Chiropractors Wed17, Mon22 and Fri26 of August ) I was advised not to do extreme moves after his sessions. Keeping my back warmer was recommended.

Irrelevant

6) I well apologised twice to assistant manager, who visited, also mentioned him, that I have Master degree in Electrotechnics and Automatics, so I know the risks.
Also mentioned that it's not a practice of everybody, I choose to do this myself, because it was too cold and body was requiring.

7) Yes, I have Master degree in Electrotechnics and Automatics.

All the more reason that you should know that an item such as a cooker is designed for one purpose and one purpose only and should not under any circumstances moved used in the manner in which you used it.

7) Cooker is all metal with heating parts well isolated and safe. All surface is way colder than any other heater, except on top 2 cooking rings.
Also it has a timer (mechanical with clicking sound) with maximum 60minutes like microwave type ones have. So it's not most pleasurable to use due clicking sound, yet for health issue, I felt, I needed. I turned it on 3 times : for ~30min, then 15 and another 10 minutes. After that I felt, that no needed as I also found, that air conditioner is working and I guessed can heat up.

8) ( Saving arguments (instead of using few heaters further from me, better smaller, close to me ) which made sense )
I didn't use it on maximum power and set on lowest temperature 100C from it's range of 100-250, because I brought it close to my back and side.
I didn't use it long, just in morning to compensate coldish temperature. On arrival of assistant manager ~12:30 it was totally cooled down.

You seem to have difficulty understanding that all of this is irrelevant, the cooker should not have been moved under any circumstances. You seem to think that there was nothing wrong with your actions and continue to try to justify them. The fact that you clearly do not understand how dangerous and inappropriate your actions were will not help your appeal.


9) I'm not cooking and not drink tea (or very rarely when somebody offers) including work), because I’m eating uncooked foods ( I am one of organisers of Irish Raw Food meetup.com group ) , so potentially I am in a way better position of less chances, that something might happen regarding using cookers, kettles or other heat type technique.

This has absolutely nothing to do with your resignation/dismissal.

Recommendations:

To Irish Rail: If Irish Rail stressing on to usage their stuff, it would be recommended to mark them.

Again you are missing the point, Irish Rail have a problem with a cooker being moved and used as a heater. I am sure had it been used, in the original location, for the purpose for which it was designed there would be not problem.

To Company:
I had no training on Irish Rail sites. Maybe additional training, to who works there would be good, because Mike (or Michael) who works on Site said, he saw ~14guys the last month on the site.

This is not a matter of site specific training it is a matter of lack of common sense.

Obvious, that it might bring some more issues.
For example another potential issue might be:
According to the main (polish) guy, who works in site, we should wear orange Irish Rail Safety Vests.
So no site were no orange vest issued, nor anybody additionally mentioned about this on site.

How would being issued an orange vest make any difference? Would that have stopped you moving the cooker?

I am still not sure whether you resigned or were dismissed, if you resigned at the meeting, your employer is not obliged to re-employ you. If you were dismissed, you should have been notified, in writing, of the dismissal and setting out the reasons for the dismissal. You should also have been advised of the appeal procedure. You should restrict your appeal to the grounds for dismissal stated in the letter, do not try to justify that which is not justifiable.


If your appeal fails and you believe that there were procedural errors in the way the dismissal was handled you could make a claim under the Unfair Dismissals Legislation. However, while you might win on procedures, the EAT will take your contribution to your dismissal into consideration when making the award.

EthicRanger

I'll comment with ##### and Italic font

vikingdub wrote: »

The English in your post is quite difficult to understand so let me summarise my understanding of the situation.

######Sorry and thanks for additional efforts to understand

1. You have worked for a security company for 5 years, during your period of employment the owneship of the company has changed 3 times and you have been transferred to the new companies.
#### ownership changed 2 times ...it means now it's 3rd company. Yes i was transfereed to new companies

3. On the occasion in question you were at an unfamiliar site, which I gather was part of a railway station.

#### Yes, the shift was unfamiliar and 2nd time. It's small train station like Adamstown (from Heuston St towards west)

4. The air conditioning in the area that you were working in was set at high and rather than change the setting you decided to bring a cooker from the cooking area to where you were sitting for heat.
##### It's additional system to air conditioning... basically it's ventilation system in kitchen (not smth over cooker) with levels of power and it was not usual thing to see secondary system in such a small area... so i noticed about ventilation only later , when 'decision' to bring cooker was made

5. Your management discovered your action and called you to a disciplinary meeting.
##### It's clients asistant manager discovered the issue. And then Monday my manager called to disciplinary meeting. There was no Duty manager (day and night) of my security company approached at that time.

6. At the disciplinary meeting you resigned.
##### Yes, it was suggested also.

7. Since your resignation, on the advice of the Citizens Information Service, you have lodged an appeal.
###### and also on companies Outcome letter about disciplinary meeting, where they gave 2-3days (after i recieved letter) to react, if i change the mind about resignation

I trust my understanding is correct.

I will address each of the items of your appeal one by one.

• Reasons for appeal:
  
  I.1) If it would be sackable offence on a safety issue, I should have been fired instantly. Because on the occasion concerned a fire could have developed from instance. To prevent a fire developing on any other occasion after this situation as a safety aspect, I should have been fired immediately by Duty Manager or so. But I was left to continue that shift and shift in same place next morning.

I am not sure what you mean here, who discovered that you had moved the cooker? Was it a manager from the security company you work for or was it a the Duty Manager of Irish Rail?
###### DIscovered Irish Rail Asisstant Manager who came to do some testing tasks in all stations.

Had your employer fired you immediately that would have been an unfair dismissal. An employer is obliged to investigate the issues leading to the dismissal and to offer the employee the opportunity to defend his/her actions. I assume that the duty manager told you to return the cooker to its correct location and advised you that disciplinary action would be taken. This is was the correct action to take.
##### In Citizen Advice Bureau, i heard it probably should be damage or loss involved in order to Dismiss from work.

I.2) I guess my case was treated in the need of situation. The manager told at the time of disciplinary meeting, that the situation on that moment between Irish Rail and company was not the best, also the Irish Rail manager acted more than he needed ( he attached all highest Irish Rail bosses to email, which included report about my incident) . I guess, firing me sounded as much better action in the eyes of client, instead of spoken or written warning, which I never had. 2.5 months passed from that day. How is a situation between and Irish Rail looks now? Isn’t in any way looks a bit as I was in a ‘scapegoat’ situation?

Did you resign or were you dismissed, this is not clear?
##### I Was dissmissed with option to resign at disciplinary meeting , so in that case my new employer will not hear this story (it's no need to tell to my new job about this) . Otherwise if i appeal and lose, they need to mention this issue, i was told.

Do you mean that 2.5 months after the disciplinary meeting you were dismissed?
##### No I was dismissed (choosed to resign) in 4days after incident.



2. Other my reasons or health and safety points I would like to mention , which led me to decision, are:

1) I have a cracked lip after few days. I felt that it was starting Saturday.
Hadn't them for long time (made photos in phone, but you still will see cracks Wed 31/08 in 11:30 - 12h meeting ) . It proves, I was cold.

This is irrelevant – a cold sore is caused by a virus and has nothing to do with temperature. The incident took place during the Summer and while you felt cold the company you were working for had maintained the air conditioning at a certain level.
##### Whatever this cold sore arrised, i felt shivering.

2) Heater was not working (it's small heater but with conjunction of another kitchen heater, which is further from place, could do a job of temperature compensation) . I’ve reported this to one of main guys of site, name ... about this.

Again I am not sure what you mean, was there a heater at your work station? Was the heater at your work station not working?
###### There were no portable heater, there were 2 kind of bathroom type small heaters on the walls. One of them was not working , another was in the kitchen side of 'S' shape coridor and t would be even more further from my sitting place than the first one.
When had you reported the fact that the heater was not working? Who did you report it to?
##### I reported at the end of same shift. I didn't expect drama from this short use. And there were no drama on manager arrival actually. He said it shouldn't be here, i said sorry and moved it back. We did some site alarm testing together. On his leave, I for some reason apologised again saying, that it's not a practice of everybody, it's just was a very cold morning for me and i couldn't found nothing better than that.
It took some efforts to think and manage, that i could use this cooker, if i can't use anything else. I don't see much difference between air blown plastic heater (which usually other sites have and it works every time) and metal coated cooker with mechanical timer to cause a heat damage unless, smbody stupid to put smth on top of cooker rings. I was alone, cooker was put close to my side and slightly behind me.

3) This was my second time on that site (the first was much shorter). It was first shift on weekends either, so I didn’t know how many travelling people to expect on weekend, and decided to stay in customer service part of ‘S’ shape corridor, rather than in another side (where originally cooker was plugged in) by a little bit heating myself up.

Where had you been told to work?
###### in customer service area, where smbdy can come from other side of window in case they have a problems with ticket machines.

4) Nobody gave me additional precaution or specific training about Irish Rail sites and stuff. The rotation of staff is very big, but there are no any additional signs warning about stuff on site. Acting against them, would be more reasonable to stronger disciplinary action.
It’s not mentioned, that this cooker belong to Irish Rail either. There are a few notices in site regarding other stuff , like ( "don't turn off", "leave plugged", "wash, if you use" ...etc ) yet this machine has no identification sticker, stating, that it belongs to Irish Rail. ( I remember, because I checked all sides of it, looking for max power written on it . It's 3100W max).

The ownership of the cooker is irrelevant, a cooker should only be used for the purpose for which it is designed, in other words for cooking. It is not a heater and no reasonable person would agree that it was acceptable to remove it from the “cooking” area and bring it to a public area to use as a heater. It is quite possible that a member of the public made a complaint to Irish rail. I know I would.


6) I well apologised twice to assistant manager, who visited, also mentioned him, that I have Master degree in Electrotechnics and Automatics, so I know the risks.
Also mentioned that it's not a practice of everybody, I choose to do this myself, because it was too cold and body was requiring.

7) Yes, I have Master degree in Electrotechnics and Automatics.

All the more reason that you should know that an item such as a cooker is designed for one purpose and one purpose only and should not under any circumstances moved used in the manner in which you used it.

7) Cooker is all metal with heating parts well isolated and safe. All surface is way colder than any other heater, except on top 2 cooking rings.
Also it has a timer (mechanical with clicking sound) with maximum 60minutes like microwave type ones have. So it's not most pleasurable to use due clicking sound, yet for health issue, I felt, I needed. I turned it on 3 times : for ~30min, then 15 and another 10 minutes. After that I felt, that no needed as I also found, that air conditioner is working and I guessed can heat up.

8) ( Saving arguments (instead of using few heaters further from me, better smaller, close to me ) which made sense )
I didn't use it on maximum power and set on lowest temperature 100C from it's range of 100-250, because I brought it close to my back and side.
I didn't use it long, just in morning to compensate coldish temperature. On arrival of assistant manager ~12:30 it was totally cooled down.

You seem to have difficulty understanding that all of this is irrelevant, the cooker should not have been moved under any circumstances. You seem to think that there was nothing wrong with your actions and continue to try to justify them. The fact that you clearly do not understand how dangerous and inappropriate your actions were will not help your appeal.
###### Sorry, Yes, i continue, because it wasn't dangerous as somebody describe in their rules. How moving plastic heater, which is usually slightly more powerful is safer than metal cooker box with 2 rings which are high on top and well inside perimeter of box size? Cooker has 3cm height legs and it was put on empty table closer to me. For me rule not to move cooker is written to person, who is supposed to be very dumb. It was a critical moment for me and the cooker was a tool, which I (having 6years master degree studies in electrotechnics and automatics PLUS 15month as an engineer tuner. Half of my sites were industrial Heating plant type of sites) easy could addopt. Yes it can be negligent, worth warning, but to fire for that? sorry?

Is the rule "not to move" is having such a powerful difference to compare with threat of feeling cold due faulty (or no) site heating?

Recommendations:

To Irish Rail: If Irish Rail stressing on to usage their stuff, it would be recommended to mark them.

Again you are missing the point, Irish Rail have a problem with a cooker being moved and used as a heater. I am sure had it been used, in the original location, for the purpose for which it was designed there would be not problem.

To Company:
I had no training on Irish Rail sites. Maybe additional training, to who works there would be good, because Mike (or Michael) who works on Site said, he saw ~14guys the last month on the site.

This is not a matter of site specific training it is a matter of lack of common sense.

Obvious, that it might bring some more issues.
For example another potential issue might be:
According to the main (polish) guy, who works in another similar site, we should wear orange Irish Rail Safety Vests.
So this site had no orange vest issued, nor anybody additionally mentioned about this on site.

How would being issued an orange vest make any difference? Would that have stopped you moving the cooker?
###### My point is, to say, that i got impression, that site was kept under unstrict conditions. I don't know, could this contribute to me think differently before doing that.

I am still not sure whether you resigned or were dismissed, if you resigned at the meeting, your employer is not obliged to re-employ you. If you were dismissed, you should have been notified, in writing, of the dismissal and setting out the reasons for the dismissal. You should also have been advised of the appeal procedure. You should restrict your appeal to the grounds for dismissal stated in the letter, do not try to justify that which is not justifiable.


If your appeal fails and you believe that there were procedural errors in the way the dismissal was handled you could make a claim under the Unfair Dismissals Legislation. However, while you might win on procedures, the EAT will take your contribution to your dismissal into consideration when making the award.

zinx

This thread is yet another example of why this country has become a joke.
Regulations regulations and yet more regulations.And the worst thing about it all is that a generation of lazy fu(kers have become almost impossible to fire due to ....Regulations!! and loads of sneaky little scumbags only dying to tell someone their rights.The type that wont stand man to man with someone and sort it out but will pick up a phone and report someone behind their back and go online whinging.

Great little country for the strokers and cute hoors so it is.

Rhys Essien

zinx wrote: »

This thread is yet another example of why this country has become a joke.
Regulations regulations and yet more regulations.And the worst thing about it all is that a generation of lazy fu(kers have become almost impossible to fire due to ....Regulations!! and loads of sneaky little scumbags only dying to tell someone their rights.The type that wont stand man to man with someone and sort it out but will pick up a phone and report someone behind their back and go online whinging.

Great little country for the strokers and cute hoors so it is.

What are you fcukin smokin?.A person in a job for 5 years with a clean record in that job,who gets fired on the spot because he was trying to get a bit of heat in a cold workplace,who was never told anything about health and safety,and not provided with proper heating,that this person is a lazy fcuker and a sneaky little scumbag.

Get a grip will ya.

vikingdub

Rhys Essien wrote: »

What are you fcukin smokin?.A person in a job for 5 years with a clean record in that job,who gets fired on the spot because he was trying to get a bit of heat in a cold workplace,who was never told anything about health and safety,and not provided with proper heating,that this person is a lazy fcuker and a sneaky little scumbag.

Get a grip will ya.

Read the posts, he was not fired on the spot, he was fired after a disciplinary hearing.

EthicRanger

What's a story with company, that it so delaying replies. Now 3rd week, waiting reply regarding those arguments, i posted below. WHat it can be?
I know director told to Human Recources to give me reply and they still don't.
Department usually on voicemail.
To get get permission to do Appeal, needed 1.5month to remind.

At very begining, they replied very well and then...looks like strategy... i don't know.