proposed classes for 2012

SBG Ireland

how about all shows offering just 2 classes from jan 2012 for seniors?

Pro - Unified rules and
Amateur - the 'new' c class

just pro or amateur, keep it simple!

Pro b is ridiculous at this stage. guys can fight without elbows, heelhooks, neck cranks etc for shorter rounds and still build on their sherdog pro record. so you're not ready for 'Pro'? then stay at amateur, no rush!

most shows have teen fights now too so i could understand having a separate 'class' for them teen-amateur or whatever as the 'old' c class rules.

be nice to bring this in with the new blood testing from jan.

pablohoney87

A year ago i woulda said no way. (Main issue bein heel hooks). but since all A class bouts have them legalized these days and I've only seen 1 attempt at one and zero injuries I'm all for it. Just makes sense really.

manga_10

viva la resistance , mite as well at this stage there's no point in stalling when there really is no point in Pro B.

theboxingclinic

Yup never understood why there was pro b in the first place

manga_10 wrote: »

viva la resistance , mite as well at this stage there's no point in stalling when there really is no point in Pro B.

Niall0

This makes sense. Ive been to a few shows this year and i dont think ive actually seen any B Class fights, it seems everyone goes from C-Class to A-class anyway.

Barry.Oglesby

How about making amateur 5min rounds? Always thought 3s were a bit short.

Tim_Murphy

I'd agree with that, B class is largely redundant with the new C class.

reganreggie

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

How about making amateur 5min rounds? Always thought 3s were a bit short.

Speaking as a fat old guy I think 3x3mins is plenty thanks.

theboxingclinic

Most amateurs wouldn't have the time to train adequately for 3 x 5. You would have less people competing and more people that do compete gassing out.

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

How about making amateur 5min rounds? Always thought 3s were a bit short.

Clive

I agree that B class is largely redundant and should be scrapped at this stage.

C class fights should be five minute rounds - even the league is five minutes. If someone doesn't have the time to prepare for that, they shouldn't be fighting.

theboxingclinic

the leagues! you mean the ones where there is very little striking, last for one 5 min round in front of a few people on mats, compared to 3 x 3 mins in a cage with the fear of fighting in front of a few hundred people sapping your energy with strikes to the head standing and grounded. no disrespect to the leagues btw but this is a different ballgame.
are you seriously making this comparison?
if we do what you want we further alienate people from competing in mma, so is it less people that you want in mma?
So in your world we should have AMATEURS that train like AMATEURS fight for the same amount of time as people who do this PROFESSIONALLY :-)
As well as having less people competing what will also happen is the quality of the fights will deteoriate considerably as the fighters tire.
Not a spectacle I want to see and not something I will be putting my amateur fighters into, ill keep my pros for that.
thanks anyways

Niall0

Clive wrote: »

C class fights should be five minute rounds - even the league is five minutes. If someone doesn't have the time to prepare for that, they shouldn't be fighting.

They are amateurs. If they dont have time to prepare for that they shoudlnt be fighting PRO. They are not getting paid for this, most will have jobs and are probably trying to build up their skillset aswell which takes time. I think 3x3 is fine.

Clive

The only difference between amateur and professional in anything (regardless of capitalisation) is whether you get paid.

I know "amateurs" that train full time and "pros" who work 60+ hours a week.

It's a big jump to go from 3x3 with big gloves to 3x5 with small gloves, elbows, heel hooks, the works and when somebody goes from C class to A class they don't suddenly find an extra 20 hours to train a week.

If fighters are gassing - whether in the league, C class or A class it's something they and their coaches need to take responsibility for. I don't think the rules should be set so that people can "have a go" without serious commitment to training.

theboxingclinic

Do you know what is a big jump? To go from a sparring situation straight into 3 x 5 minute rounds, now theres a shock to the system!!
Better to start with 3x3, increase your fitness resovoir and then the step up to 3 x 5 minute rounds will not seem so bad!

shanesmith

theboxingclinic wrote: »

the leagues! you mean the ones where there is very little striking, last for one 5 min round in front of a few people on mats, compared to 3 x 3 mins in a cage with the fear of fighting in front of a few hundred people sapping your energy with strikes to the head standing and grounded. no disrespect to the leagues btw but this is a different ballgame.

This "fear" will usually go after the first fight, experience is the medicine of MMA

theboxingclinic

For some, not for all, you are right about the experience though and thats what c class should be used for before stepping it up to pro. 3 x 3 mins is perfect for c class.

cowzerp

Amateur is fine as it is so I would not be into messing with that now.

Barry.Oglesby

Clive wrote: »

The only difference between amateur and professional in anything (regardless of capitalisation) is whether you get paid.

I know "amateurs" that train full time and "pros" who work 60+ hours a week.

It's a big jump to go from 3x3 with big gloves to 3x5 with small gloves, elbows, heel hooks, the works and when somebody goes from C class to A class they don't suddenly find an extra 20 hours to train a week.

If fighters are gassing - whether in the league, C class or A class it's something they and their coaches need to take responsibility for. I don't think the rules should be set so that people can "have a go" without serious commitment to training.

Thanks Clive. That's what i would have said.

Kieran81

3x4 for amateur ?

shanesmith

Kieran81 wrote: »

3x4 for amateur ?

good idea, would be good to at least keep something from b-class rules.

Barry.Oglesby

I think 4min 30 second rounds would be perfect...

3 minutes is too short. Far too short for a grappler in particular. You could literally waste 1/3 of the round on referees stand ups and breaks.

theboxingclinic

3 mins is perfect, anything more is too long. try it on and your own show and see how it goes!

reganreggie

Three mins are perfect, are we really going to make the jump from junior mma fights even bigger and then another big jump up to pro.

I would say c class is thriving at the moment you only need to see the amount of shows to see this, if its not broken why fix it?

Kieran81

any thoughts from promoters , as this would surely mean a higher purse for pro fighters , in comparrison to fights that maybe would have been booked as b-class and paid at the b-class "rate", creating more costs for them?

empacher

i see a rule change every year is becoming a great trend

Niall0

Is there many fights under the B-Class rules these days?

El Guapo!

What about if there was two levels at C class?

I mean if you had say a C1 and C2 class.
Both could be still fought using the same C class rules except C2 is 3x3 and C1 is 3x5.

The fighters could fight at whichever one they liked and could mix between fighting at C1 and C2.
For instance, a fighter could have a bout at C1, and their next one at C2 if they wanted and then back to C1 again. And organisers could sort out between the fighters what level they wanted to fight at for the next show and come to a mutual agreement.

This way fighters would get experience fighting 3x5 before they step up to Pro, but without the pressure of being stuck at 3x5 if they're not ready for it.
It's just an idea that could please everybody. I'm not a fighter so I'm not sure if it's workable or not but it might be an idea.

paulmclaughlin

Dean09 wrote: »

What about if there was two levels at C class?

I mean if you had say a C1 and C2 class.
Both could be still fought using the same C class rules except C2 is 3x3 and C1 is 3x5.

The fighters could fight at whichever one they liked and could mix between fighting at C1 and C2.
For instance, a fighter could have a bout at C1, and their next one at C2 if they wanted and then back to C1 again. And organisers could sort out between the fighters what level they wanted to fight at for the next show and come to a mutual agreement.

This way fighters would get experience fighting 3x5 before they step up to Pro, but without the pressure of being stuck at 3x5 if they're not ready for it.
It's just an idea that could please everybody. I'm not a fighter so I'm not sure if it's workable or not but it might be an idea.

El Guapo!

^^^
What's all that about?!
It was only a suggestion. I said it might not be workable but it was only an idea.

paulmclaughlin

The whole point is to cut down the two C classes into one C class. If you read the thread properly you would have noticed that.

El Guapo!

Yeah I did read the whole thread. I wasn't replying to the thread topic, I was talking about the other issue people were talking about to do with the number of rounds.
As I said, it was just a suggestion. I'm not involved in the mma scene in any way so I don't really know if its workable but it was only an idea.

Barry.Oglesby

I think there should be a 8 classes. The top class being A, where you can heel hook, elbow etc. Then the bottom class being H where you get to climb into the cage, have your name announced and then the winner is decided by who strutted in better. That way guys get to experience the feel of the cage etc. without breaking a nail.

MMA should be 5 minute rounds. If a guy can't train enough to go for 15 minutes then he shouldn't be asking people to pay to see him. 3 minute rounds would still have a place at amateur or teenager level. Sure even watch the MMA League. Some of those matches take 3 or 4 minutes of feeling out before there's a takedown.

theboxingclinic

Not much point really as very few c class fights go the distance as it is, it would be a rarity for a c class fight to go to decision if it was 3 x 5.
At battlezone 2 weeks ago I don't think any of the c class fights went the distance and if my memory is correct only 1 went into the 2 round.
So for c class 3 x 3 is perfect and is working very well.

Edit: konrads fight went to decision!

cowzerp

We have made great strides in Mma in Ireland with the new rules at amateur level and now it's a realistic step before going pro, at the same time it's still realistic that someone who works 40 hours a week can do it.

I don't see a need for 5 min rounds at amateur and think it would put people off doing it-there would be many 1st round stoppages and most probably more due to fatigue than anything

People shouldn't lose sight of the fact that c class is a learning stage and 3 mins and the new rules is working, If it wasn't I'd be the 1st to say it wasn't.

Personally I don't see a problem with b class anyway but do feel it should be 5 minutes which it is on the rumble anyway.

Fact is some shows don't allow elbows and heel hooks and just don't call it b class, the elite or aiming to be elite fighters definetly should be looking to fight pro a, once no one is been hurt I don't see a problem.

cowzerp

Actually to add to this! B class on the rumble basically is c class with pro gloves and 5 mins and the perfect Step between pro A and c class-I think the option of b class is s good thing and ideal for developing fighters.

Nothing wrong with improving in steps and I dont think all our rules should be based around sherdog, all countries have mix rules so it's not like we're doing anything out of order.

SBG Ireland

last year when i suggested the new C class rules most were against it, now its taken as a given

this will be the same. if you want an 'intermediate' step between Pro and Amateur then call it 'amateur b' or something. any show worth talking about has the unified rules as standard for 'Pro'. its ridiculous that anyone should suggest that a fighter can build up a 'Pro' record not fighting Pro rules. if they are not ready for fighting pro for whatever reasons...then dont fight pro. stick with amateur. some fighters may never fight 'pro'...thats ok too.

we dont have a governing body and have to regulate ourselves. i think we're actually doing very well at the moment. BUT as a coach that has a lot of actual pro fighters, guys training full time that will be fighting on major promotions by end of next year based on their sherdog records, i see it as unfair that someone can fight low level competition here on little shows making up rules as they go passing them off as 'pro' when my guys are travelling to uk, us etc fighting actual pro rules.

Pro - unified rules
Amateur - as agreed

simple.

cowzerp

I'm pretty sure most people agreed that the new amateur rules made sense-I don't remember much resistance on it, not here anyway.

There is plenty of shows in the uk that use no elbows or heel hooks etc, I'm not even saying I'd oppose your suggested rules of just amateur and pro but I do think some discussion on it would help people make up there opinions.

Martin Walker

As far as i can see the only problem John has is people using "Pro B" Fights to pad records.
How about you just change the name. Semi-Pro perhaps.

Professional - Unified Rules
Semi-Pro - Current "B Class"
Amateur - Agreed C Class rules

Then when the promoter sends results to sherdog ect put them as above?

For the record i think Johns suggestion is the way to go but lots want to use the old rules as you seen with the attempted abolishion of the old C Class rules.

Jason McCabe

I think John idea is most likely the best way to go.

Don't think it will be brought in so quickly.

Shows have already started matching for next year

John Ferguson

Martin Walker wrote: »

Professional - Unified Rules
Semi-Pro - Current "B Class"
Amateur - Agreed C Class rules

Then when the promoter sends results to sherdog ect put them as above?

At last, a sensible suggestion by Marty Walker (lol I never thought I'd see the day )

This is what we've been doing at CC from Januay 2011 in reality. We took guidence from Sherdog as to what was actually required for a fight to go on someone's pro record. After alot of back and forward debate the main points were 5 min Rounds and 4 oz gloves. Elbows etc were not really an issue as some promotions don't allow them (including Cage Rage / UCMMA still)

kainer2

cowzerp wrote: »

I'm pretty sure most people agreed that the new amateur rules made sense-I don't remember much resistance on it, not here anyway.

There is plenty of shows in the uk that use no elbows or heel hooks etc, I'm not even saying I'd oppose your suggested rules of just amateur and pro but I do think some discussion on it would help people make up there opinions.

The only UK show that doesn't use elbows (and is worth worrying about) is UCMMA/Dave Rage

Anyway seriously guys don't tamper with the current C Class system, it is perfect for Ammys and for shows.

At Cage Warriors we use the same rules for our Ammy prelim fights in London and it works well there too. Whilst we haven't had a B Class bout since last year too.