Moving towards a police state?

Captain Slow IRL

I was watching AVII on one of the satellite channels recently and there was an english speaker on stating the facts on how England was slowly being turned into a police state, with the prevalance of nationwide cctv cameras being one of his key points.

He went on to characterise what a police state would be and some of what caught my attention are:
- make the people work for the state and not the other way around
- turn the people against each other (eg, rat on benefit frauds here)
- those at the top are unaccountable for their wrong-doings

Granted, there's a lot of criteria to fill before we're a fully fledged police state but he made some excellant points that opened my eyes. The first point is undeniably true for a lot of people (like me) who are dependant on social welfare right now. There are a lot of cuts being made and when you see on the news of people signing off the live registar, it's not that they've found work - they've been means tested and are not legible for any sw payments. So in my case, work for 14 years being a good little boy, paying your taxes and prsi but when you run out of luck, go f*ck yourself!

The second point is very relevant right now as well - public sector vs. private sector and employed vs. unemployed. If you can read and have been on afterhours anytime recently you'll see this. I've never heard a lot of these views expressed orally, I guess the people who are coming out with these ideas are afraid of getting hurt for their verbal diarrhea.

The third point........nevermind, I don't think anything needs to be said here :rolleyes:

nyarlothothep

Its a war between those who have empathy and aren't self centered little scuts and those who espouse right wing conservative misreabalist opinions. Their little world of sh1t is one where people toil and if they're unlucky enough as you say to be unemployed then fck them because "I'm not paying my taxes to help someone else." Uncapped wages, monopolisation resulting from a captalist libertarian nightmare etc. Stupid ideas born from a selfish small minded view of the world. Its an eternal war against these types of people who would rather have a free for all where they of course are the winners. Well my message to them is "fck you."

PureClaas

Dam guys, were long a policed state now and all of Europe now for that matter and the people are the ones who empower it. Nobody but ourselves to blame really. Were screwed i do think tho the whole movent on lawfull rebellion is a good thing and is very valid. Youtube the vids and see what you think

Jonny7

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Its a war between those who have empathy and aren't self centered little scuts and those who espouse right wing conservative misreabalist opinions. Their little world of sh1t is one where people toil and if they're unlucky enough as you say to be unemployed then fck them because "I'm not paying my taxes to help someone else." Uncapped wages, monopolisation resulting from a captalist libertarian nightmare etc. Stupid ideas born from a selfish small minded view of the world. Its an eternal war against these types of people who would rather have a free for all where they of course are the winners. Well my message to them is "fck you."

Yeah but we're the 1% when compared to the world population. If some guy in Africa actually had the internet and read the above he'd be thinking - "you all have the opportunity to get educated, you can vote, you have infrastructure, you have a social system, you don't get beaten by the police, you have a fairly stable society, stop the exaggeration about how hard your life is - "fck you"."

nyarlothothep

Jonny7 wrote: »

Yeah but we're the 1% when compared to the world population. If some guy in Africa actually had the internet and read the above he'd be thinking - "you all have the opportunity to get educated, you can vote, you have infrastructure, you have a social system, you don't get beaten by the police, you have a fairly stable society, stop the exaggeration about how hard your life is - "fck you"."

No he'd be thinking, "why do white conservative/right wing middle class men put words in my mouth, fck them."

ed2hands

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Its a war between those who have empathy and aren't self centered little scuts and those who espouse right wing conservative misreabalist opinions. Their little world of sh1t is one where people toil and if they're unlucky enough as you say to be unemployed then fck them because "I'm not paying my taxes to help someone else." Uncapped wages, monopolisation resulting from a captalist libertarian nightmare etc. Stupid ideas born from a selfish small minded view of the world. Its an eternal war against these types of people who would rather have a free for all where they of course are the winners. Well my message to them is "fck you."

Well said. Couldn't agree more.
Libertarianism is just a nicer term for Vulture Capitalism.
The famous “trickle-down” theory is alive and well. Oh yeah; the principle that the poor, who must subsist on table scraps dropped by the rich, can best be served by giving the rich bigger meals...
The sense of entitlement these people and their clueless acolytes believe they have is ****ing breathtaking.


"And so it goes. Corporations, whether financial or not, strive to maximize profit as inevitably as water seeks its own level. We've been trying to "regulate" them since the 19th century. Or is it the 18th? Nothing helps for long. You close one loophole and the slime oozes out of another hole.
Wall Street has not only an army of lawyers and accountants, but a horde of mathematicians with advanced degrees searching for the perfect equations to separate people from their money.
After all the stimulus money has come and gone, after all the speeches by our leaders condemning greed and swearing to reforms, after the last congressional hearing deploring the corporate executives to their faces, the boys of Wall Street, shrugging off a few bruises, will resume churning out their assortment of financial entities, documents, and packages that go by names like hedge funds, derivatives, collateralized debt obligations, index funds, credit default swaps, structured investment vehicles, subprime mortgages, and many other pieces of paper with exotic names, for which, it must be kept in mind, there had been no public need or strident demand. Speculation, bonuses, and scotch will flow again, and the boys will be all the wiser, perhaps shaken a bit that they're so reviled, but knowing better now what to flaunt and what to disguise."
William Blum

Jeboa Safari

Captain Slow IRL wrote: »

- turn the people against each other (eg, rat on benefit frauds here)

People should rat on benefit frauds.

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Its a war between those who have empathy and aren't self centered little scuts and those who espouse right wing conservative misreabalist opinions. Their little world of sh1t is one where people toil and if they're unlucky enough as you say to be unemployed then fck them because "I'm not paying my taxes to help someone else." Uncapped wages, monopolisation resulting from a captalist libertarian nightmare etc. Stupid ideas born from a selfish small minded view of the world. Its an eternal war against these types of people who would rather have a free for all where they of course are the winners. Well my message to them is "fck you."

So whats a workable alternative? People don't mind paying taxes that go to social welfare, what they don't like is the types of people who see the dole as a career and have no intention of ever getting a job, just looking for more and more entitlements and looking to sponge off society.

jackiebaron

Jonny7 wrote: »

Yeah but we're the 1% when compared to the world population. If some guy in Africa actually had the internet and read the above he'd be thinking - "you all have the opportunity to get educated, you can vote, you have infrastructure, you have a social system, you don't get beaten by the police, you have a fairly stable society, stop the exaggeration about how hard your life is - "fck you"."

Or he might be saying "These white bitches. They plunder my country and slaughter my people. Eventually they leave but they have their racketeering operation known as the IMF keep my country constantly in debt through loans that are impossible to payback and their energy and mineral companies keep that bastard [enter tinpot dictator's name here] in power and pay him handsomely to have the cops beat the sh!t out of us and keep us down."

CamperMan

Captain Slow IRL wrote: »

I was watching AVII on one of the satellite channels recently and there was an english speaker on stating the facts on how England was slowly being turned into a police state, with the prevalance of nationwide cctv cameras being one of his key points.

it is a police state!

hooradiation

Captain Slow IRL wrote: »

I was watching AVII on one of the satellite channels recently and there was an english speaker on stating the facts on how England was slowly being turned into a police state, with the prevalance of nationwide cctv cameras being one of his key points.

Here's a fun little tidbit, the footage quality from the CCTV cameras in the UK is usually far too grainy to be of any worth. Doubly so if they happen to be outdoors. They essentially there to serve as a deterrent rather than as a monitoring system.

Captain Slow IRL wrote: »

He went on to characterise what a police state would be and some of what caught my attention are:
- make the people work for the state and not the other way around

But what does this actually mean?

Captain Slow IRL wrote: »

- turn the people against each other (eg, rat on benefit frauds here)

the key word is fraud. I would and have reported anyone I know to be committing benefit fraud in a heart beat. I'm sure this won't make me any more popular around here, but honestly, people committing benefit fraud just end up shafting those that legitimately need it, so fuck those guys.

But if you mean public vs private sector then you don't need the state to foster that animosity. When times get tough, people will turn on those they perceive as having it 'better'. Nobody cared about public sector bloat and inefficiency in the good times, but now that there is a recession people are looking for people to take the blame so they don't have to.
After all, if the Public sector or the unemployed are 'punished' then people in the private sector reason that they will be left alone or hit less. So they'll selfishly push for someone else to take the bulk of the damage.

Captain Slow IRL wrote: »

- those at the top are unaccountable for their wrong-doings

This is a universal complaint the world over, regardless of merit. See the above on how we love to blame others for our failings.
Hardly an indicator in and of itself of a police state.

Captain Slow IRL wrote: »

The first point is undeniably true for a lot of people (like me) who are dependant on social welfare right now. There are a lot of cuts being made and when you see on the news of people signing off the live registar, it's not that they've found work - they've been means tested and are not legible for any sw payments. So in my case, work for 14 years being a good little boy, paying your taxes and prsi but when you run out of luck, go f*ck yourself!

I don't understand, are you going for some special pleading for why you ought to be allowed to commit benefit fraud or are you complaining that you feel that the means testing has been unfair?

Captain Slow IRL wrote: »

The second point is very relevant right now as well - public sector vs. private sector and employed vs. unemployed. If you can read and have been on afterhours anytime recently you'll see this. I've never heard a lot of these views expressed orally, I guess the people who are coming out with these ideas are afraid of getting hurt for their verbal diarrhea.

See above.
If you get ****ed by cuts then I won't have to - or so the flawed reasoning goes.

Captain Slow IRL wrote: »

The third point........nevermind, I don't think anything needs to be said here :rolleyes:

that might have been premature.

ed2hands

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

So whats a workable alternative? People don't mind paying taxes that go to social welfare, what they don't like is the types of people who see the dole as a career and have no intention of ever getting a job, just looking for more and more entitlements and looking to sponge off society.

This argument is trotted out far too much to justify attacks on the vulnerable sections of society. Am sure you agree.
'Dismantle the welfare state because it's a drain on the economy. And anyway, look at all those unemployed spongers. **** 'em. I'm entitled to my gargantuan salary coz i'm very smart and clever and worked ever so hard in college.'

No. The real problem is the disgusting transfer of wealth that has occured at the expense of the majority, who by-and-large work just as hard or harder than those parasites at the top.

Another fallacy i see expounded is that the super rich are mostly "entrepeneurs", so deserve what's coming their way.
:pac:
Are they ****!
For every hard-working entrepeneur that produces a good product ethically and gains just reward, there's 100 slimy corporate conmen, speculators, bankers, asset-strippers and sweat shop industrialists who make their fortune on the back of human misery.

davoxx

ed2hands wrote: »

For every hard-working entrepeneur that produces a good product ethically and gains just reward, there's 100 slimy corporate conmen, speculators, bankers, asset-strippers and sweat shop industrialists who make their fortune on the back of human misery.

and don't forget that the state then pays to police private corporate interests ...

ed2hands

hooradiation wrote: »

I'm sure this won't make me any more popular around here, but honestly, people committing benefit fraud just end up shafting those that legitimately need it, so fuck those guys.

What's that supposed to mean?
You seem to be clearly suggesting the regular posters in this forum would support or condone benefit fraud.

hooradiation wrote: »

I don't understand, are you going for some special pleading for why you ought to be allowed to commit benefit fraud or are you complaining that you feel that the means testing has been unfair?

Why just infer that the poster is possibly implying they ought to be allowed to commit benefit fraud?
Poster said they saw a documentary that lists "turn people against each other" as a symptom of a police state. Read the OP again to confirm this.

hooradiation

ed2hands wrote: »

What's that supposed to mean?
You seem to be clearly suggesting the regular posters in this forum would support or condone benefit fraud.

Hardly, but I would have imagined that given the context of the thread that admitting to, as it was put, "rat[ing] on benefit frauds" might be a tad unpopular.
The "ratting" part, you understand, not the subject of said ratting.
I still reckon someone will take umbrage at that before this thread is done.

ed2hands wrote: »

Why just infer that the poster is possibly implying they ought to be allowed to commit benefit fraud?
Poster said they saw a documentary that lists "turn people against each other" as a symptom of a police state. Read the OP again to confirm this.

I am not inferring, I am asking.
Hence why it was proceeded with "I don't understand", how can I infer from that which I don't yet understand?

ed2hands

hooradiation wrote: »

Hardly, but I would have imagined that given the context of the thread that admitting to, as it was put, "rat[ing] on benefit frauds" might be a tad unpopular.
The "ratting" part, you understand, not the subject of said ratting.
I still reckon someone will take umbrage at that before this thread is done.

Hardly? Hmm. The fact you said "around here" suggested otherwise to me. Fair enough so.
Well, just so long as you understand that if someone does take umbrage, it won't automatically back up any pre-conceptions you may possibly have about the 'people around heres' attitude to benefit fraud.

hooradiation wrote: »

I am not inferring, I am asking.
Hence why it was proceeded with "I don't understand", how can I infer from that which I don't yet understand?

You are inferring it as possible by asking.:)

hooradiation

ed2hands wrote: »

Hardly? Hmm. The fact you said "around here" suggested otherwise to me. Fair enough so.
Well, just so long as you understand that if someone does take umbrage, it won't automatically back up any pre-conceptions you may possibly have about the 'people around heres' attitude to benefit fraud.

Nothing to do with the actual fraud, like I said the unpopular part would be the so-called "ratting". It's not popular in general in Ireland, something to do with our borderline systemic disregard for authority, I'd imagine.

I'm sure you've been in situations where despite the fact an act may be considered wrong, "ratting" on the wrong-doer would be considered worse, especially where it can be imagined as a victimless crime.
If not, lucky you.

ed2hands wrote: »

You are inferring it as possible by asking.:)

I do realise I am presenting a false dichotomy, and that there may be other possible answers. Hopefully I'll get to find out.