The Government must make a statement on Euro savings

anymore

The increasing talk of a possible dissolution of the Euro zone or the withdrawal of individual countries is raising concerns and worries that the value of savings in Irish banks and institution's will be considerably devalued and is yet one more worry for people in this recession.
The Government has a moral obligation to let people know the implications for thier savings, if they have any, in the event of a dissolution or withdrawal from the Euro. The opposition should at this point be calling on the Government to advise people on this urgent matter.
WE cannot have yet another situation where it is the inner circles and those in the know who are able to take or make contingency plans for their deposits and investments.
Any thoughts on whether the Government and opposition should be talking to us on this matter ?

irishh_bob

anymore wrote: »

The increasing talk of a possible dissolution of the Euro zone or the withdrawal of individual countries is raising concerns and worries that the value of savings in Irish banks and institution's will be considerably devalued and is yet one more worry for people in this recession.
The Government has a moral obligation to let people know the implications for thier savings, if they have any, in the event of a dissolution or withdrawal from the Euro. The opposition should at this point be calling on the Government to advise people on this urgent matter.
WE cannot have yet another situation where it is the inner circles and those in the know who are able to take or make contingency plans for their deposits and investments.
Any thoughts on whether the Government and opposition should be talking to us on this matter ?

tell people that the euro is finished and you have a stampede of people rushng to withdraw savings

tell people everything will be fine and they make themselves hostages to fortune

Slozer

anymore wrote: »

WE cannot have yet another situation where it is the inner circles and those in the know who are able to take or make contingency plans for their deposits and investments.

Power corrupts........

Ask yourself, if you were in a position of power and had prior knowledge of an event that would wipe out your savings/money, would you

a. Make arrangements to safeguard your money and then tell the people.
b. Tell the people and then start making your arrangements.

It would take a true statesman to do the latter and I don't think one exists.

anymore

irishh_bob wrote: »

tell people that the euro is finished and you have a stampede of people rushng to withdraw savings

tell people everything will be fine and they make themselves hostages to fortune

It is a dilemma to be sure, but it is to solve dilemmas we elect people to Government. And here surely is the real function of the opposition, to highight and ask questions about such fundamental questions. Over the last 12 months a 60 + year old money with some savings in the bank has asked me about how save they are. Mostly I have been reassuring her but now have the dilemma of having to tell the next time she asks that I dont actually know.

irishh_bob

anymore wrote: »

It is a dilemma to be sure, but it is to solve dilemmas we elect people to Government.

im not relying on the goverment to protect me from a possible euro collapse - exit etc , ive made my own provision , 50% of my savings is in gold , 50% is in euro in rabbo bank , that way if we go back to the punt , while i will take a hit on the savings , the rise in gold in punt will compensate , thats just one way , others are putting thier money in sterling , dollar etc

OS119

Slozer wrote: »

...It would take a true statesman to do the latter and I don't think one exists.

i don't think thats fair - any government that said publicly that it was preparing contingencies for the dissolution of the Euro would cause the value of the Euro to plummet, and possibly cause the dissolution of the Euro.

they could not get away with a single 'if x happens we're going to do y' statement, the media would want to know about z, and a, b, c, d, and e - and how likely the govt thought any of those were, and endless speculation of why they were wrong - and endless queues of people taking their money out of Irish banks and driving to Newry to put it into UK banks.

saying 'you don't need to worry about the bank collapsing, we've got a plan' is proven to be the best way to collapse a banking system.

masterful silence - perhaps with a raised eyebrow or a swift wink - is the best path in these circumstances. such times, like war, are when you really need to have politicians and senior civil servants that the public trusts to do the right thing even though they can never say what they are doing - of course, if you have a political system inhabited by the weak, the inept and the corrupt, who's fault is that?

anymore

irishh_bob wrote: »

im not relying on the goverment to protect me from a possible euro collapse - exit etc , ive made my own provision , 50% of my savings is in gold , 50% is in euro in rabbo bank , that way if we go back to the punt , while i will take a hit on the savings , the rise in gold in punt will compensate , thats just one way , others are putting thier money in sterling , dollar etc

Well good for you, but my point is that it is actaully a moral responsibility of both the Government and opposition to deal with this matter and to advice a course of action for the citizens. A person's life savings are fundamental to them, thier security.
So why are the opposition not talking about it ?

irishh_bob

anymore wrote: »

Well good for you, but my point is that it is actaully a moral responsibility of both the Government and opposition to deal with this matter and to advice a course of action for the citizens. A person's life savings are fundamental to them, thier security.
So why are the opposition not talking about it ?

anyone that thinks goverments are moral is a tad naieve

mikom

anymore wrote: »

Well good for you, but my point is that it is actaully a moral responsibility of both the Government and opposition to deal with this matter and to advice a course of action for the citizens.

The government come first, the citizens come second.
Morals don't come into it.
I thought everybody got that memo.

anymore

irishh_bob wrote: »

anyone that thinks goverments are moral is a tad naieve

I didnt say they were moral, i said they had a moral responsibility which is different. Anyhow the purpose is to bring publuc pressure on them to address the issue.
Where are the posters of Boards.ie who are members of political parties.

anymore

The poor complain; they always do,
But that's just idle chatter.
Our system brings rewards to all,
At least to all who matter. ~ Gerald Helleiner

I have taken this saying from today's Vincent browne column - maybe that is the explanation for the lack of public concern over savings in euros ?

carveone

anymore wrote: »

Well good for you, but my point is that it is actaully a moral responsibility of both the Government and opposition to deal with this matter and to advice a course of action for the citizens. A person's life savings are fundamental to them, thier security.
So why are the opposition not talking about it ?

Unfortunately they are. They said something this morning about "the euro has weeks to live" or some such.

I totally agree with your sentiment. The government needs to reassure people. I wrote to the Irish Times a few days ago (not published of course) saying exactly this - that the Greek situation held lessons for Ireland about fiscal confidence. That is: we cannot withdraw from the Euro without also withdrawing from the EU. This is what was said by the EU Commission and is was explained why to me on another thread (I'll report a link if you want it).

This means that moving your saving in Euro to another country in Euro is kinda pointless. But people are doing it because they don't have confidence in Ireland's Euro position. This is utterly abhorent - a fleeing of capital is the last thing we need right now. The pension funds are doing it as well (so said that RTE pension shock program) and they should be forced to stop.

Slozer is unfortunately right though. It happened before when the Punt was devalued. Everyone and their dog knew in advance. Hedge funds made out like bandits.

KerranJast

Why do they need to make a statement?
*IF* the Eurozone splits up (or more likely splits into a Deutsch-Euro and PIIGS-Euro) its obvious whatever currency we end up in will devalue and so will savings in domestic banks.
Its Economics 101.
It'd be like the Govt having to release a statement saying the Earth is round. :rolleyes:

carveone

KerranJast wrote: »

Why do they need to make a statement?
*IF* the Eurozone splits up (or more likely splits into a Deutsch-Euro and PIIGS-Euro) its obvious whatever currency we end up in will devalue and so will savings in domestic banks.
Its Economics 101.
It'd be like the Govt having to release a statement saying the Earth is round. :rolleyes:

I don't have a clue what will happen if it all goes south. But the government could have issued something saying that our membership of the EU was tied to our involvement with the Euro. Which would stop those rumours of printing punts in a dark cave in Sandyford.

On the other hand if our government said everything was fine, I might take that as a sign to run away....

Tea drinker

OS119 wrote: »

i
saying 'you don't need to worry about the bank collapsing, we've got a plan' is proven to be the best way to collapse a banking system.

Nordberg: "No one worry about the huge bomb about to go off"
Crowd: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh

KerranJast

carveone wrote: »

But the government could have issued something saying that our membership of the EU was tied to our involvement with the Euro.

It isn't though. Bad and all as it would be in the short term (especially for depositors) if we had to leave the Euro, it would be nowhere near as bad as us leaving the EU.
We'd suddenly be back to being a tiny isolated country having to compete against a giant trading block next door to us.

carveone

KerranJast wrote: »

It isn't though. Bad and all as it would be in the short term (especially for depositors) if we had to leave the Euro, it would be nowhere near as bad as us leaving the EU.
We'd suddenly be back to being a tiny isolated country having to compete against a giant trading block next door to us.

Absolutely. That situation would be totally unacceptable.

I don't want to poach the thread here, but the Greece situation did clarify the euro-eu thing. Cut and paste time from my notes on it. Beeftotheheels had a bunch on comments on another thread too after I asked him about it:

---

8<

---

However the recent traumatic events in Greece have resulted in clarification by the European Commission on why leaving the Euro would also result in leaving the EU. It would not be a matter of forcing any member to leave; there is no provision in the treaties for being forced out of either the Euro or the EU. No member state even wanted that power nor would it have been good for confidence in the Euro system.

But membership of the EU confers very significant and legally binding rights to its citizens and obligations on its governments. If Ireland wished to exit the Euro its people would rush to get their money out of their banks, causing a collapse of Irish banks and probably triggering civil disorder. Ireland would have to introduce capital controls and possibly a state of emergency in an attempt to maintain order. They would also have to prevent every person and business from pursuing their rights under EU law to sue the State and its banks.

As this would break all of the fundamental freedoms and laws of the EU, it should be obvious that Ireland could not do any of this without first withdrawing from the Union. That action would result in the restoration of borders, immigration controls and trade tariffs; the latter removing any benefit from the resulting currency devaluation. US FDI would vanish overnight along with any EU structural funds and subsidies.

(etc)

anymore

You cant really talk about some rule being a law if there is not some central body to enforce it and the EU has no means of enforcing these ; laws;. The fact that the UK and others have been able to remain outside the Euro and inside the EU shows that membership of the Euro is not legally enforcable,The fact that the senior EU states will not allow the ECB to be a lender of last resorts also signals that the EU is not a body which has the capapcity to create the kinds of laws which can bind other countries and be enforcable as if the EY itself were some kind of superstate.

carveone

anymore wrote: »

You cant really talk about some rule being a law if there is not some central body to enforce it and the EU has no means of enforcing these ; laws;.

That's a good point but there are European courts where Irish people have taken the government to before. There have been fines and rulings before. But I take your point - the government could possibly just say "bite me" and bluff their way through. Wouldn't get reelected though!

The fact that the UK and others have been able to remain outside the Euro and inside the EU shows that membership of the Euro is not legally enforcable

Well they didn't get in so they don't have to get out. Like sex and banking that way - penalties for early withdrawal.

But yeah, it's a bloody mess and it's been made worse by faffing around talking about treaty changes etc. What is going to happen? Is there suddenly going to be a major crisis (ha! too late!) which requires the ecb to act as a lender of last resort to sovereign states, thus overstepping the European Union treaty, thus requiring treaty change?

It's like your car is heading for a cliff and you decide that braking requires 6 months of discussion and an Irish referendum (we cannot not have a referendum of course). Hello?

anymore

carveone wrote: »

That's a good point but there are European courts where Irish people have taken the government to before. There have been fines and rulings before. But I take your point - the government could possibly just say "bite me" and bluff their way through. Wouldn't get reelected though!



Well they didn't get in so they don't have to get out. Like sex and banking that way - penalties for early withdrawal.

But yeah, it's a bloody mess and it's been made worse by faffing around talking about treaty changes etc. What is going to happen? Is there suddenly going to be a major crisis (ha! too late!) which requires the ecb to act as a lender of last resort to sovereign states, thus overstepping the European Union treaty, thus requiring treaty change?

It's like your car is heading for a cliff and you decide that braking requires 6 months of discussion and an Irish referendum (we cannot not have a referendum of course). Hello?

I have to admit I was trying to recall from memory a recent David McWillims article on the euro when I posted my comments on the EU - at least I think it was Mr McWillimiams.
The worst is that I am not sure if the experts understand any better what is going to happen, than non-experts do.