Will I get any better?

manwithaplan

In discussing training, racing and all that good stuff people regularly ask what they can do to improve. I have read some very good advice here about volume of training , approaches to training, how to target areas of weakness, how to peak and various other things. This thread is not about any of that.

What I am wondering about is, all other things being equal, how long does it take someone to reach their plateau. I bought a road bike in Spring 2010, I increased my distance (and probably my pace) over the Summer, started going on club spins in the Autumn, kept it up through the Winter and started racing earlier this year (mostly club-level stuff). If I don't increase the level or effectiveness of my training (and I probably won't!), can I expect to get any better? Is there a value to long-term use of the relevant muscles and cardio jiggery-pokery that means that for a given initial period you will get better even by doing the same level of training and racing? How long might that period be? I know "all other things being equal" does not apply in the real world - I'm getting older for a start! Nonetheless, I am interested in what the sports science and fitness mavens, and indeed anyone else, have to say about it.

AstraMonti

The thing with cycling, is that it needs too much effort to even be mediocre. When I started cycling again after almost 12-13 years of sitting on my ass, i found that my fitness was improving exponentially and that lasted for about a year. Anything after that needed a lot of structured training to get a bit better. Now almost 3 years later I know where I stand and I know that I can only get better if I put huge miles and training. If you train hard you will get rewarded, if you don't then you ll just be one of the bunch, which is still (and i am saying that to hear it myself too) not bad judging by the average level of fitness I see on people around me but it's not good enough for the super competive world of the amateur racing. It all depends what your goals are.

kennyb3

10,000 hours is a general figure thats mentioned before you level out.

feck sake lads

but a touring bike and enjoy your cycling. the Sean Kelly's of this world only come around once in a lifetime thats a fact.;)

tawfeeredux

I seem to recall Joe Friel suggesting in his training book that you can keep improving for up to 10 years after taking up the sport regardless of the age that you start at. Whether that depends on adjusting your training load each year I can't recall. My guess would be that even if you can't increase the volume of training you do, you would probably improve the first few years as your base fitness improves & provided you use the time you have as effectively as possible, i.e. focus on your weaknesses. I'd say after that you'd probably plateau unless you increase the volume.

RobFowl

No you're as good as you'll ever be

Beasty

kennyb3 wrote: »

10,000 hours is a general figure thats mentioned before you level out.

That would bring me into my nineties!!!!

The general view is you keep improving just by cycling - basically getting the miles in (ie not by improving your training in any particular way) for about 3 years. Now I started cycling at a more serious level a couple of years ago, and I'm still seeing improvements in my pace and power output. A year ago I was perhaps 30w better than 12 months previously, and now I've improved by another 20w or so.

Now at my age I should be seeing a decline, but I'm not. I put that down to the fact I'm still really starting out, I'm improving my training, and my riding skills are getting better.

My times in TTs probably illustrate it best - I've shown significant improvements this year, knocking 3 minutes or so off my 25m time (some of it's down to equipment though). I reckon I'll probably "plateau" next year, hopefully getting another minute or so - then it's a matter of trying to hold what I've got (the vets age standard times suggest a decline of 25s a year at my age, and I'd hope my residual "improvement" will allow me to maintain pace for a year or two after that

The advantage you have is you still relatively young (certainly compared to some of us;))

morana

If you can train smart and focused I am sure you will see an improvement year on year. This is the beauty of the pm no hiding you are doing this wattage and how does it compare to last year etc.

Just keep enjoying the pain ...you will be dead or injured for a long tome!!

doozerie

kennyb3 wrote:

10,000 hours is a general figure thats mentioned before you level out.

I think that is the figure quoted for developing skills generally. It has some application to cycling, I guess, as it encompasses muscle memory amongst other things (more muscle memory potentially means greater efficiency of movement), but I expect it's more applicable to sports where skill (arguably) plays a greater part than fitness, such as martial arts, javelin, shot putt, etc.

Beasty

To be clear, 10,000 hours equates to 5 hours a week for 40 years!

I suspect the figure should be 1,000 hours if applied to sport, and that would tie in with what I understand to be the general rule of thumb with cycling

doozerie

Beasty wrote: »

To be clear, 10,000 hours equates to 5 hours a week for 40 years!

I've most often seen the figure quoted for "mastering" a musical instrument, or a martial art. In that context it makes sense (to me), although I'm not sure it's actually widely accepted as being an accurate measure.

niceonetom

Not for nothing is the life of a PRO so often described as 'monastic'. Training is an act of faith. There are no guarantees. Training more and harder should make us better, but only up to a point and with ever diminishing returns as time on the bike and years on the clock accrue. The only thing we can know for certain is that we won't get better without training.

Lumen

doozerie wrote: »

I think that is the figure quoted for developing skills generally. It has some application to cycling, I guess, as it encompasses muscle memory amongst other things (more muscle memory potentially means greater efficiency of movement), but I expect it's more applicable to sports where skill (arguably) plays a greater part than fitness, such as martial arts, javelin, shot putt, etc.

You had me until shot putt. Surely it doesn't take 1000 hours to do that skillfully.

skidpatches

tawfeeredux wrote: »

I seem to recall Joe Friel suggesting in his training book that you can keep improving for up to 10 years after taking up the sport regardless of the age that you start at. Whether that depends on adjusting your training load each year I can't recall. My guess would be that even if you can't increase the volume of training you do, you would probably improve the first few years as your base fitness improves & provided you use the time you have as effectively as possible, i.e. focus on your weaknesses. I'd say after that you'd probably plateau unless you increase the volume.

If I remember correctly, he says you can improve through better fitness for 7 years, and improve for 3 further years by using your experience.

Fitness and speed are important, but skills and applied experience make a big difference too. I have seen strong cyclists lose races because they slow down too much on corners, find themselves in bad positions, and use up too much of their energy too early in a race, or chasing the wrong breaks or getting in the wrong breaks, going too early in a sprint, blowing up on a climb, etc.

I have also seen cyclists in their 50s who ride twice a week beat 25 year olds doing 15 hours a week through excellent skills, positioning, efficient pedalling, being on the right wheel at the right time and with a desire to win

doozerie

Lumen wrote:

You had me until shot putt. Surely it doesn't take 1000 hours to do that skillfully.

There are many areas of expertise within the shot putt. You've gotta become big. Real big. You need to perfect your grunt. You need to grow an all over mat of body hair. You need to perfect a facial expression that'll literally scare the ball further away from you. And all that before you even pick up the ball itself. It takes time to become a hairy scary monster capable of chucking a ball quite far.

RobFowl

doozerie wrote: »

There are many areas of expertise within the shot putt. You've gotta become big. Real big. You need to perfect your grunt. You need to grow an all over mat of body hair.

And thats only the women.......

manwithaplan

Thanks for all the thoughts. Looking at Beasty's post, I seem to recall hearing the rule of thumb before of getting three years of improvement just by doing your newly found diversion. I accept that it's a bit academic - if you care enough about improving, you should focus on what you can do to bring it about. Still it's hard not to idly wonder about these things.

michael196

test your self once a year for progress: on coumanaspig !!!!

mp31

Beasty wrote: »

To be clear, 10,000 hours equates to 5 hours a week for 40 years!

or 40 hours a week for 5 years

MungoMan

All things being equal, losing body fat is a big factor in improving performance.
Especially true when ascending.
Nearly everyone who cycles can improve on their body fat %.

I heard Lance in an interview saying his optimum body weight was 73kg, and if he was over this, he'd go to bed hungry, it's just so important to not be overweight.

I lost 8kg this year, made a fairly big difference to my average speed.

Hungrycol

MungoMan wrote: »

I lost 8kg this year, made a fairly big difference to my average speed.

Says MungoMan!

-Chris-

http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2008/12/10000-hours.html