Buying a gas boiler, what to look out for?

98-00

I'm looking for domestic gas fired central heating boiler that can heat 4 radiators and provide heat for the hot water tank. What specification should I be looking for?
It's for a small 2 bed house, I've decided on gas because there is no space for an oil tank and the house already has gas fitted.

DGOBS

Maybe look at a combi and get rid of the DHW tank too!

Go for a quality boiler, like Viessmann or Worchester, both good with 5 year parts/labour warranty

98-00

Forgive my ignorance.
What does a combi involve and what's DHW

heinbloed

A combi-boiler produces heat for space heating and for domestic hot water(DHW).
Independantly from each other. One boiler does both without a hot water tank/cylinder.
Open the hot water tap and the boiler starts heating the water. Close the tap and the boiler stops working. So no need for storage and no energy waste caused by storage losses.

98-00

That sound like what I'm after, thanks.

heinbloed

Is the house already build?
You spoke about

4 radiators and provide heat for the hot water tank

.

If still in the building stage you should check if the plumbing system ( the pipe work for domestic water and heating ) is suitable for a pressured system. Pressured means that you feed all pipes straight from the mains.

With pressured systems you'll have a larger choice of taps, showers, boilers etc...

If you plan for solar thermal installations ( there is some building regulation demanding renewable energy for new builds) check that the combi-boiler is suitable for warm water infeed.

98-00

The was built in about 1900 so the plumbing is there already. I still have to finalise the purchase of the house. The plumbing is basic and could be modified to suit. I don't think I'll be going for a solar system.

What sort of price am I looking at for these boilers?

98-00

I noticed boilers are rated in KW, what sort of power rating should I be looking at for what I want?

heinbloed

Contact a civil engineer, an architect, an energy advisor, a heating engineer. They will be able
( well, should be able ) to figure out the thermal energy demand. Ask for a written calculation sheet. Signed and sealed.
Without a qualified calculation any boiler choice is guesswork only, like buying shoes without knowing the size needed.

98-00

98-00 wrote: »

I noticed boilers are rated in KW, what sort of power rating should I be looking at for what I want?

A combi is only good to you if you have good mains water pressure or you fit a pump fed from a break tank, also with a combi a back up with a electric shower is handy.

If it were me I would have oversized rads to allow for lower radiator temperatures allowing the boiler to condense constantly, I would have a out door sensor which helps improves effiancy, I would get the biggest sized boiler(35kw+) I could afford then match the heating load to what ever the determined requirement is.

heinbloed

Gary71 wrote:

.....also with a combi a back up with a electric shower is handy.

Why so?

And further:

If it were me I would have oversized rads to allow for lower radiator temperatures allowing the boiler to condense constantly,....

Radiators which meet the demand are not oversized.

And

"...I would have a out door sensor which helps improves effiancy..."

The efficiency of the heating system can be influenced by an external temperature sensor. In shady situations that is. Sunny rooms/houses have no benefit from an external temperature sensor, just the oposite. The sensor must be installed in the shade and therefore does 'know' the temperature there. It would cause the boiler to produce more thermal energy than necessary to heat a sunny/pre-warmed room during a sunny day.

And further

....I would get the biggest sized boiler(35kw+) I could afford then match the heating load to what ever the determined requirement is.

Sure, take out the double glazing units and replace them with single glazing. Leave the door open.....(smiley).

The "heating load" is fixed, gary71. It is determined by the building and it's usage.

@the OP:

Get a heating engineer etc... in to determine the heat load. He/she will guide you to the correct and cheapest solution. Pay for this service, get the recommendations in writing. This is a wise investment. Don't listen to sellers and installers. They have their own receipts on how to make a living.....

98-00

What sort of equations do they use to calculate? I suppose there is an online calculator for it too.
The terrace house I have is mainly north facing, kitchen and bedroom to the south. How does an external temperature sensor help the system?
I couldn't imagine over sizing everything would be efficient.

Someone mentioned a control system that can active the heating via text message from my mobile phone. Any truth in that, who makes these and can it be used with any boiler system?

heinbloed

There are online calculators. But these do take avarage values (materials, orientation,eposure, airtightness, shading etc...) for basic answers. More of a toy than a tool.
The professional tools cost money and aren't for free. These professional tools need as well a trained/experienced data operator.
Search in google for these tools. And for the toys as well.
Maybe someone here would know one as well.

Look for " space heating demand " + " calculation " or similar terms.

A profesional would charge you around € 200.-, maybe € 500.-, not more. Incl. the advise on how to proceed.
It needs a site visit and half day at the desk, a day of work.

The terrace house I have is mainly north facing, kitchen and bedroom to the south. How does an external temperature sensor help the system?

Good question. Ask this the manufacturer and the energy advisor.

External temperature sensors make sense in large buildings with a high ventilation rate. Not in small, private buildings in our relative modest climate.

The external temperature sensor gives a signal to the boiler to increase or decrease the flow temperature. The water temperature created to heat the radiators.
If the temperature drops the thermal energy demand of a building increases. And therefore the flow temperature has to be increased because the fabric loses more thermal energy the colder it gets outside.

With secondary heat sources present which have a fluctuating output in the house (a stove, an open fire, a kitchen or plenty of computers etc...) however these external temperature controlled central heating systems will be hopping mad. Lead to an unefficient heat production, overheating.
Unless more internal controls are included: door counters to see how many people are in the building, internal temperature sensors and ventilation controls should be included. In short: a costly and maintenance demanding technical overkill for a single family house.

Someone mentioned a control system that can active the heating via text message from my mobile phone. Any truth in that, who makes these and can it be used with any boiler system?

Every electric device can be controlled by a remote control, a telephone. A modern boiler is an electric device. Talk to the communication specialists, there are some on boards.ie as well.

O Heinbloed your hard work:), to answer your question on why a shower is handy, if a combi stops working for any reason then it's still nice to be able to clean yourself.

If you worked in the industry you would know most rads work on a temperature of 60-82c so it's common to describe radiators working at lower temperatures as "oversized" due to there larger surface area compared to "normal" rads

As for outdoor sensors it just a tool, it would be very stupid of a installer to fit one in a position that would have a negative impact on the installation, no different from a roomstat, the fact some people fit them over a toaster doesn't mean they don't have a use.

My point about the heating load, that went right over your head, of course the heating load is fixed stop being silly, it still has to be calculated to determine the heat requirement, if I had a requirement of 8 kw you wouldn't buy a 8 kw combi boiler, you would get a 38kw boiler to give decent hot water performance and range rate the heating side of the boiler to the required heat load ie 8kw

heinbloed

heinbloed wrote: »

External temperature sensors make sense in large buildings with a high ventilation rate. Not in small, private buildings in our relative modest climate.

The external temperature sensor gives a signal to the boiler to increase or decrease the flow temperature. The water temperature created to heat the radiators.
If the temperature drops the thermal energy demand of a building increases. And therefore the flow temperature has to be increased because the fabric loses more thermal energy the colder it gets outside.

With secondary heat sources present which have a fluctuating output in the house (a stove, an open fire, a kitchen or plenty of computers etc...) however these external temperature controlled central heating systems will be hopping mad. Lead to an unefficient heat production, overheating.
Unless more internal controls are included: door counters to see how many people are in the building, internal temperature sensors and ventilation controls should be included. In short: a costly and maintenance demanding technical overkill for a single family house.

Ahhhhhhh...........

Outdoor sensors work in conjunction with existing controls and are very inexpensive(€25-€40), they are designed by domestic boiler manufactures to work in a domestic environment and they are just a tool, so don't be listing fantasy installation where they shouldn't be fitted.

98-00

98-00 wrote: »

I couldn't imagine over sizing everything would be efficient.

Again the term oversized is in relation to the size of the rad you would fit if you ran your heating system at a high temperature, fitting a combi allows you to run your rad circuit at low temperatures getting the best out of a condensing boiler and not effecting your hot water temperatures which it would do if you had a hot water cylinder and ran the rads at 45-50c.

heinbloed

@gary71:

A half year ago you learned what a condensing boiler is, here in the forum.I can dig out the thread if you wish.
And now we will teach you what a combi-boiler is. See please the 4th post in this thread, posted by me 16/11/2011 at 20:52

If you have further questions concerning CH installations don't hesitate to ask.

Calculating the thermal energy demand of a property correctly but then overdimensioning the thermal source (here: the combi-boiler) will lead to a call back.It is against consumer laws to install an overdimensioned boiler, one which consumes more energy than necessary.
Architects and engineers and BER agents are in the courts by the hundreds because they recommended wrong thermal sources for CH systems.

The consumer is duped if the output of the installed thermal source is higher than the max. demand. It is against his financial interests.
The consumer is ripped off with an installation method described by you here in this thread.

heinbloed

heinbloed wrote: »

@gary71:

A half year ago you learned what a condensing boiler is, here in the forum.I can dig out the thread if you wish..

please do, but not forgetting I'm a boiler manufactures technician and City & Guilds qualified gas service engineer(25yrs, time flys) you may find the tread hints at your inability to understand :eek:

heinbloed wrote: »

And now we will teach you what a combi-boiler is. See please the 4th post in this thread, posted by me 16/11/2011 at 20:52.

thank you, fault finding on gas boilers all day makes me open to learning new things and teaches me I'm not as clever as I think I am:cool:

heinbloed wrote: »

If you have further questions concerning CH installations don't hesitate to ask.

.

Do you understand if you range rate a boiler you can change it's kw capacity?

You can have a 38kw combi which is putting all it's heat energy in to the mains water going to the hot tap for decent hot water performance but when the heating calls it's output is only 8kw matching the required heating load, boiler is only a 38kw boiler when the tap is open and only a 8 kw boiler when the tap is closed, the reason in having a higher rated combi is the bigger the boiler the better the hot water performance.

When a gas boiler is fitted someone like me has to set the boiler output, just because their is a given kw output stamped on the boiler doesn't mean you can't down rate a boiler to decrease the boilers output matching the required heat load ie.. If a householder buys a boiler with the idea of extending in a few years would you're advice be to get a boiler that matches the heat requirement now and buy a bigger boiler later or buy a bigger boiler now and range rate it to a lower output?

heinbloed

heinbloed wrote: »

@gary71:
The consumer is duped if the output of the installed thermal source is higher than the max. demand. It is against his financial interests.
The consumer is ripped off with an installation method described by you here in this thread.

Again, if a boiler has been reduced to match the max thermal demand and not higher than the thermal demand as you have put, how then is this a rip off, wasteful or underhanded?

From a manual:

Maximum Heating Power adjustment The maximum heating power can be adjusted to between the maximum power allowed by the boiler and the minimum pow-er). The display shows the value between 100% (“99” on the display) and 0% (“0”) of this interval. To check the maximum heating power, access menu /sub menu 3/parameter 1, check the value and, if necessary, modify it as indicated in the Gas Regulation table. (See page 31 for more details).

DGOBS

lol@gary and not knowing what combi or condensing boilers are, I laughed so much I wet myself!!

In what country are all these BER agents etc. in court?

Most modern hi-efficicency gas boilers are range-able on the heating side, as suggested by Gary, some with huge ranges from 35 to as low as 5kw heat inputs (as the fan modulation allows for correct air/gas ratio over such a large range) and on most is simple set via the control panel (ie. no regulator adjustments required like with older appliances)

I would be pretty mad if someone installed an 8kw combi in my house because that was the heating demand!

heinbloed

About gary71 learning what a condensing boiler is see this link (on special request from gary71):

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056148524&page=3

and reminded later here :

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056148524&page=3

The main point in these threads was that condensing boilers must be run in the condensing modus. This was new to some posters incl. poster gary71, claiming that he on others do not read the manuals.
This statement (not reading that much, not reading manuals ) gary71 repeats frequently in various posts in these and other threads.


The OP is interested in a modulating combi condensing boiler, see this thread.

Modulating condensing boiler decrease their efficiency by running them on low output. Their stated efficiency (SEDBUK) is for the highest output. Not for the lowest output.
Running a modulating condensing boiler at the lowest possible output is as efficient as running a matching high efficiency (non-condensing !) boiler at the same output. It could be even worse.

Gary71 does not know this (obviously !), I quote:

You can have a 38kw combi which is putting all it's heat energy in to the mains water going to the hot tap for decent hot water performance but when the heating calls it's output is only 8kw matching the required heating load, boiler is only a 38kw boiler when the tap is open and only a 8 kw boiler when the tap is closed, the reason in having a higher rated combi is the bigger the boiler the better the hot water performance.

This absurd sizing leads to a permanent waste of energy, the building regulations demand an efficiency of the central heating boiler of over 90% and this can't be met with the suggested set-up ( a 38 kW boiler supplying 8 kW for space heating). So an illegal installation we would have here with gary71's suggested set-up.




DGOBS hasn't understood the thread entirely, refering to

Most modern hi-efficicency gas boilers are range-able on the heating side, as suggested by Gary, some with huge ranges from 35 to as low as 5kw heat inputs (as the fan modulation allows for correct air/gas ratio over such a large range) and on most is simple set via the control panel (ie. no regulator adjustments required like with older appliances)

The thread is about supplying a house with 4 radiators with an efficient, legal CH system. Which should supply DHW as well.
With a major overhaul/renovation a boiler has to be installed which matches the building regulations, the boiler must have more than 90 % efficiency for the central heating . Only a condensing boiler with matching output can achieve this legal requirement. Not a high efficiency boiler.


DGOBS asks:

In what country are all these BER agents etc. in court?

This is in Germany, many losing their professional indemnity insurance since didn't show a professional conduct. And that is what the insurances demand. Guesswork, like counting radiators doesn't do anymore. It is not a special German issue however. EU consumer laws make service providers as liable as material providers. So we have a similar situation here in Ireland, well, all over the EU.

heinbloed

Question on boiler type/model:

Gary71 wrote:

You can have a 38kw combi which is putting all it's heat energy in to the mains water going to the hot tap for decent hot water performance but when the heating calls it's output is only 8kw matching the required heating load, boiler is only a 38kw boiler when the tap is open and only a 8 kw boiler when the tap is closed, the reason in having a higher rated combi is the bigger the boiler the better the hot water performance.

Please tell us which gas-fueled, modulating combi condensing boiler you have in mind here. Thanks.

DGOBS

I understand the thread very well thank you very much

For domestic gas boiler for sale in IRELAND (not Germany) the high efficiency boilers (ie. boilers that are forced draught and run with reduced excess air levels that their former atmospheric type) ALL are HIGH EFFICIENCY CONDENSING BOILERS

Yes there has been a lot of so called 'Band B' boilers for sale in the past that we're 'atmospheric condensing type' but generally 'Band A' is what you now find from the manufacturer

So inYOUR WORLD, you would suggest what? For a combi boiler for this small abode???

You say that the Sedbok efficiency is based on max output, and efficiency DECREASES when ranged to lower output ranges, yet in a previous thread you argued that I was wrong to suggest (when you advised someone to reduce the output of their oil boiler to below manufacturers spec) that this would Decrease efficiency and increase fuel consumption, you can't have it both ways my friend

heinbloed

The rules are clear for this world, see page 34 article 4-6 on this document:

http://www.joinricsineurope.eu/uploads/files/EPBD3onlineguide.pdf

Property professionals will get you to court if you don't follow the min. standards set out in EN12831.

The boiler manufacturer Viessmann has also a short information on EN12831 here on page 8:

http://www.viessmann.com/com/etc/medialib/internet-global/pdf_documents/com/magazin_aktuell_gb.Par.1315.File.File.tmp/aktuell_02_2004_GB.pdf


@DGOBS
You wrote:

You say that the Sedbok efficiency is based on max output, and efficiency DECREASES when ranged to lower output ranges, yet in a previous thread you argued that I was wrong to suggest (when you advised someone to reduce the output of their boiler to below manufacturers spec) that this would Decrease efficiency and increase fuel consumption,....

A link please to this quote.

Without knowing what your remark refers to we can't discuss it.

It is in principle possible to install the worst banger of a boiler as long as it burns the fuel - and get a seasonal efficiency of over 90%. It really depends on the competence of the heating engineer.

The history of the condensing boiler tells us so. The designer/developer did use a standard boiler and added a condensing part to it, reducing the flue gases to below 50 degrees Celsius. Simple. A competent man he is, a miller by profession who saw that his family's energy consumption was eating away the small profits they made in their bakery.

Your statement which I highlighted in Italics should make you think twice. Investigate the situation and you'll find the contradiction.
There is a difference between fuel efficiency and boiler efficiency. And then there is the efficiency of the CH system to be looked at as well.

But link the source of this/your statement first so we avoid further confusion. Thanks.

JohnnieK

@ Heinbloed
What Profession are you in exactly?
And regarding combi boilers. If a house hold has a space heating requirment of 12kW but has a family of 5 in it you are not going to put a 12kW combi boiler in because they will have rubbish hot water performance. Every heating engineer that is involved hands on will now this. The larger the combi boiler the better the hot water performance AND their heating side of the boiler is always lower than the stated total kW output of the hot water side. And the heating side on a lot of them is range rateable. One for example is the Ariston CLAS HE boiler. They come as standard set to 60% of the total output and it is the installers choice to increase or decrease as the system needs.

If a BER assessor is blowing his trumpet about how much heat load there is on a dwelling and has added the total for hot water consuption it would come in under 20kW for a standard 3 bed semi. Supposing there are two adults and 3 teenage girls living there. If the installer put a 20kW combi in the family would "bluntly putting it" murder the installer because there hot water performance would be inadequate and they have just spent all this money on a fancy boiler.

heinbloed

heinbloed wrote: »

About gary71 learning what a condensing boiler is see this link (on special request from gary71):


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056148524&page=3

and reminded later here :

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056148524&page=3

The idea you have that condensing boilers are dangerous in the manor you describe is a bit silly:pac: and proves you don't work on or understand gas boilers.

heinbloed wrote: »

The thread is about supplying a house with 4 radiators with an efficient, legal CH system. Which should supply DHW as well.

So following your logic you need a combi of about 6-8kw     

heinbloed wrote: »

Please tell us which gas-fueled, modulating combi condensing boiler you have in mind here. Thanks.

       
The Ariston Clas he combi mentioned in 38kw mode is range rateable on heating from 33kw down to 8 kw, you will find other combi's are similar.

Domestic gas boilers are classed as low water content boilers so any heat put in to the heat exchanger is easily transferred in to the heating circuit even with a larger heat exchanger that's been reduced to the boilers minimum output, range rating a gas boiler is nothing new, it  has always been a requirement for a gas service engineer on commissioning .

Heinbloed any mistakes or misunderstanding I have while working in the gas industry I have had put right by my peers giving me a dig or working out problems on the boilers/heating systems on the day, you read something formulate a opinion but you don't follow up your theory's by testing them, if you did you would understand why your posts are a bit silly sometimes:D and no I don't have a link to prove that.

DGOBS

you know something, I have kinda had a 'moment of enlightenment' and my conclusion is, to argue with you is pointless, as you seem to believe you know it all, but from what I have read here over the past few months have never 'done' any of it, kick off the slippers and glasses, put on a pair of work boots and lets see what your made of in the real world

I come here, and give my PROFESSIONAL opinion, to try and help solve peoples issues, and al that seems to happen on this board, is an IDIOT who professes to know it all come here and just try to blind the joe public

If that comes across as a personal attack on a closet-would-be-heating-engineer who doesnt know what a 318 is, well, just ban me!

OP I stand by advice, I would be happy to have it in my house, if you go with a combi the size of the boiler determines the performance you get at the tap and I'm sorry your thread turned in to a bitchfest but he started it:o

98-00

You've both given me things to look into.

DGOBS

DGOBS wrote: »

you know something, I have kinda had a 'moment of enlightenment' and my conclusion is, to argue with you is pointless, as you seem to believe you know it all, but from what I have read here over the past few months have never 'done' any of it, kick off the slippers and glasses, put on a pair of work boots and lets see what your made of in the real world

I come here, and give my PROFESSIONAL opinion, to try and help solve peoples issues, and al that seems to happen on this board, is an IDIOT who professes to know it all come here and just try to blind the joe public

If that comes across as a personal attack on a closet-would-be-heating-engineer who doesnt know what a 318 is, well, just ban me!

Calm down, calm down, I try to imagine him typing naked sitting on a load of books, it helped me not take him so seriously, but now I'm a bit confused in other areas of my life:o

roy rodgers

Lads, check out who got banned from this site:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

http://www.constructireland.ie/vb/showthread.php?t=1160

JohnnieK

roy rodgers wrote: »

Lads, check out who got banned from this site:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

http://www.constructireland.ie/vb/showthread.php?t=1160

:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::D:D:D

:pac::pac::pac:



:eek:Does that make me a cyberbully

heinbloed

The Irish building regulations demand a 90% min. efficiency for CH boilers fueled with gas or oil.

This is undisputeable. See building regulations Part L here

http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,27316,en.pdf

Chapter 2.2.2.1.

There is no modulating combi-condensing boiler listed in the HARP database delivering 38 kW on the DHW side. No such boiler exists (to my knowledge) with a minimum efficiency of 90%.
So gary71 is suggesting an illegal installation, against clear building regulations ....

In what guild does he claim to be member? The brick and bar guild(smiley)?


JohnnyK suggests to have a look at the Ariston He series. Again: illegal. These modulating combi-condensing boilers in the stated 38 kW class do not meet the 90% min.efficiency:

http://www.ariston.co.uk/uploads/doc4e980992bd7c8.pdf

They are not listed in the Harp data base.There is no combi boiler from this manufacturer listed at all in the harp data base .

The Harp data base can bee seen here:

http://www.seai.ie/Your_Building/BER/BER_Assessors/Technical/HARP_Database/Gas_LPG_and_Oil_Boilers/

and the only two boilers from the manufacturer Ariston listed there are non-combi boilers.See

http://www.seai.ie/Your_Building/BER/BER_Assessors/Technical/HARP_Database/Gas_LPG_and_Oil_Boilers/?f=1&man=Ariston%20Thermo%20UK&fuel=Gas

The database was last updated 28/10/2011 , so pretty new.


My facit about this farce:

Gary71 and JohnnyK are suggesting to the OP dubious, maybe illegal and very wastefull heating solutions.

@ the OP:

Contact a heating engineer. He/she will guide through the jungle. Print out the list of smallest gas fueled (combi-) condensing boilers from here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75244837

and show this list to the heating engineer. Surely there is something usefull to be found.

heinbloed

heinbloed wrote: »

T

In what guild does he claim to be member? The brick and bar guild(smiley)?

Your not far wrong, my dads a publican:) and I was surprised when I passed my apprenticeship with British Gas, I wanted to be a Train Driver.

You don't have to agree that's fine, but you are being a bit silly every combi ( i'v worked on) has the capacity to be range rated, the larger the combi the better the hot water performance, putting those two things together a reasonable person may say" do you know what Gary, it makes perfect sence to have a lot of heat for the plate heat exchanger to make use of the good water pressure and then lower the heating output so I don't end trying to put a elephant in to a rabbit hutch with a over rated heating output" now if you don't agree Heinbload that's perfectly ok:)

KoolKid

DGOBS wrote: »

I come here, and give my PROFESSIONAL opinion, to try and help solve peoples issues, and al that seems to happen on this board, is an IDIOT who professes to know it all come here and just try to blind the joe public

If that comes across as a personal attack on a closet-would-be-heating-engineer who doesnt know what a 318 is, well, just ban me!

Warning issued.The simple rule here is attack the post, not the poster. Can we all get back on track here.

If you were to take the Vaillant Ecotec combi( great bit of kit), 28 kw for domestic hot water and can have the heating output reduced to 9 kw, I'd be more than happy with that, chuck in a out door sensor and now you're sucking diesel:D

heinbloed

heinbloed wrote: »

In what guild does he claim to be member? The brick and bar guild(smiley)?

You've had a laugh at my trade and my ability to do my job, which I can handle because I once had a job where people chucked poo at my head and tried to stab me (most days) so a bit of ridicule is fine, but Heinbloed what is your day job, I ask in a non attacking the poster kind of way:D

Briany3

I used a diesel fuel injection. That is pumps and injectors from trucks to ships. Oh and also done a bit of auto electrictric. Telephone tech, and a few other jobs, and i still know nothing. LOL

JohnnieK

KoolKid wrote: »

Warning issued.The simple rule here is attack the post, not the poster. Can we all get back on track here.

Take a look at post number 34. I am taken this as a personal attack on me and my ability as a professional tradesman by someone who gives unprofessional advise to posters and attacks others who disagree. As someone who adhers to part L of the regs and IS813, what dose Heinbloed know of practical experiance of these. We can all read and copy links till the cows come home.

He also has no idea who DGOBS is. DGOBS has vast EXPERIENCE in this field and is a benefit to posters and there issues.

Yea, and he keeps using Kelvin:mad:, that has to be a yellow.

KoolKid

Everyone is doing wrong here. Personal attacks are wrong , so is taking the thread off topic with discussing mod decisions. If you have an issue with a post use the report button.
Closed.