Steel shot

mrbrianj

There are ads running in today's national papers looking for consultation on the banning of lead shot for either waterfowl or entirely regardless of area or quarry.

Could end up effecting all game shotgunners

goshawker

the ban is already been put in place in the north, and wildfowlers are being checked, the police are using a metal detector to check shot birds

mrbrianj

It mentions the ban in the north. EEC directive, but everybody does it under their own steam. Interesting to see how it's handled down here

323

Bummer

But has been in the pipeline for years.

Which papers had this? Be interested in reading it.

meathstevie

Steel shot works but not as efficient as lead, that's my take on it from experiencing both.

Is there any solid scientific evidence in relation to lead contamination and hunting available that could be applied to Ireland anyway ?

Birdnuts

meathstevie wrote: »

Steel shot works but not as efficient as lead, that's my take on it from experiencing both.

Is there any solid scientific evidence in relation to lead contamination and hunting available that could be applied to Ireland anyway ?

I think there are number of studies from the US that showed wildfowl were suffering heavy lead contamination and sickness on a number of wetlands over there - hence the ban in the US for the last 10 years or so. How this applies to Ireland I don't know, especcially given the fact that most Irish wetlands would see no where near the amount of shooting compared to their American counterparts.

PS : I also read something last year in relation to concerns in the UK about lead contamination in Wild duck being offered for sale to the public in a number of estaiblishments.

ssl

goshawker wrote: »

the ban is already been put in place in the north, and wildfowlers are being checked, the police are using a metal detector to check shot birds

Off topic but wouldn't lead set off a metal detector?

323

Used to do a lot of waterfowl in the southern US,Texas and Louisiana, all non-toxic/steel shot, don't know when it started but lead ban had been in place some time when I started there, 16 years ago.

Remember reading some of the studies Birdnuts mentioned, one of the big concerns was lead in the water table as with the amount of shooting over there, amounted to many thousands of tonnes of lead left on the ground each year.

Did only apply to waterfowl though as still used lead for what they call upland shooting, quail, pheasant etc.

4200fps

Ah to hell with that, steel shot is supposed to be ****e:eek:. There be a ban on johnny's next.we may stock up on a few cartons after xmass incase

jmrc

ssl wrote: »

Off topic but wouldn't lead set off a metal detector?

No

meathstevie

Birdnuts wrote: »

I think there are number of studies from the US that showed wildfowl were suffering heavy lead contamination and sickness on a number of wetlands over there - hence the ban in the US for the last 10 years or so. How this applies to Ireland I don't know, especcially given the fact that most Irish wetlands would see no where near the amount of shooting compared to their American counterparts.

PS : I also read something last year in relation to concerns in the UK about lead contamination in Wild duck being offered for sale to the public in a number of estaiblishments.

Thanks for that bit of clarification. It would be interesting to see how much lead shot is being sold in Ireland every year. If you use those figures than you'll also have to keep in mind that the figures will include the clayshooters and those boys and girls fire a hell of a lot more than a gameshooter.

Longranger

ssl wrote: »

Off topic but wouldn't lead set off a metal detector?

I'm open to correction on this, but I think metal detectors react to iron,so won't be set of by lead, aluminium,copper etc. Only steel or other alloys of iron I think.

landkeeper

it depends on the metal detector
the more expensive /advanced ones can be set to pick up/ignore particular metals

Tackleberrywho

Longranger wrote: »

I'm open to correction on this, but I think metal detectors react to iron,so won't be set of by lead, aluminium,copper etc. Only steel or other alloys of iron I think.

My Ex Service Ghurka Reg. metal detector detects all Metals, thats it's feckin problem. Lol

Double Barrel

Anyone have a link or address so I /we can submit information on the effects of of lead and the banning of lead shot?
Thanks.

mrbrianj wrote: »

There are ads running in today's national papers looking for consultation on the banning of lead shot for either waterfowl or entirely regardless of area or quarry.

Could end up effecting all game shotgunners

cavan shooter

You would possibly be better looking for a definition on wetlands. The ban on lead is a done deal its an Eu Directive and coming from something Ireland signed up when moses was a child. Lets get the head down and get a cear definition on what constitutes a wetland.:)

rabbit assassin

If banning lead shot for shooting, will they ban the lead weight fishermen use? Being a keen fisherman and shooter myself I have often lost a line or two in weeds, trees etc with lead weights on it. Will this be banned too ? or at the cnuts just trying to put another nail in the coffin for gun owners :mad:

There must be no recession, crime or any other more important issues to deal with. All it is is a bunch of suits that never owned a pair of boots in their lives , telling people what to do on their own beliefs.. and whats more they listen to the anti's before they actually do proper research into hunting and shooting. :mad::mad::mad:

Ronnie Beck

rabbit assassin wrote: »

If banning lead shot for shooting, will they ban the lead weight fishermen use? Being a keen fisherman and shooter myself I have often lost a line or two in weeds, trees etc with lead weights on it. Will this be banned too ? or at the cnuts just trying to put another nail in the coffin for gun owners :mad:

There must be no recession, crime or any other more important issues to deal with. All it is is a bunch of suits that never owned a pair of boots in their lives , telling people what to do on their own beliefs.. and whats more they listen to the anti's before they actually do proper research into hunting and shooting. :mad::mad::mad:

I would imagine the amount of lead in wetlands due to fishing is a tiny compared to shooting.


A wetland is just an area that is seasonally or permanently saturated
( or...“areas of marsh, fen, peatland or
water, whether natural or artifi-
cial, permanent or temporary, with
water that is static or flowing, fresh,
brackish or salt, including areas of
marine water the depth of which
at low tide does not exceed six
metres”).
There is no one true definition. I reckon the lead shot ban will only be introduced where wetland birds are feeding or resting for a certain amount of time. Basically all the good spots for duck:D. It shouldn't have any effect the field full of pheasants thats been flooded for the last six months.

Here's a reasonably scientific looking study on it
http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=eu%20wetland%20directive%20lead&source=web&cd=10&ved=0CGcQFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.peregrinefund.org%2Fsubsites%2Fconference-lead%2FPDF%2F0107%2520Mateo.pdf&ei=vT0DT_KiIsjMhAfwlNG9AQ&usg=AFQjCNG0-_PGLLRpSfYepkdMPLT02ao3Og&sig2=1gL8pI1j1Hg0rl1I-Dk45A&cad=rja

4gun

meathstevie wrote: »

Steel shot works but not as efficient as lead, that's my take on it from experiencing both.

Is there any solid scientific evidence in relation to lead contamination and hunting available that could be applied to Ireland anyway ?

that question been trashed out here several times before.....

would have to say conclusively that ever dead bird that I have handled, lead has played a major role in their demise

Birdnuts

Ronnie Beck wrote: »

I would imagine the amount of lead in wetlands due to fishing is a tiny compared to shooting.


A wetland is just an area that is seasonally or permanently saturated
( or...“areas of marsh, fen, peatland or
water, whether natural or artifi-
cial, permanent or temporary, with
water that is static or flowing, fresh,
brackish or salt, including areas of
marine water the depth of which
at low tide does not exceed six
metres”).
There is no one true definition. I reckon the lead shot ban will only be introduced where wetland birds are feeding or resting for a certain amount of time. Basically all the good spots for duck:D. It shouldn't have any effect the field full of pheasants thats been flooded for the last six months.

Here's a reasonably scientific looking study on it
http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=eu%20wetland%20directive%20lead&source=web&cd=10&ved=0CGcQFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.peregrinefund.org%2Fsubsites%2Fconference-lead%2FPDF%2F0107%2520Mateo.pdf&ei=vT0DT_KiIsjMhAfwlNG9AQ&usg=AFQjCNG0-_PGLLRpSfYepkdMPLT02ao3Og&sig2=1gL8pI1j1Hg0rl1I-Dk45A&cad=rja

I think it was banned in the US first due to high levels of lead in Wildfowl like Mallards, certain Geese etc. Though I guess Irish Wetlands wouldn't see anything like the amount of shooting as some of their American counterparts.

4gun

4200fps wrote: »

Ah to hell with that, steel shot is supposed to be ****e:eek:. There be a ban on johnny's next.we may stock up on a few cartons after xmass incase

twasn't too long ago they were



in this country unless they impose a ban on the complete sale of lead shot.....how do any of you honestly this will be enforced ....we have deer poaching running rampant around the country , and theres talk of cutting back on rural garda stations

when shooting over a wet patch what comes out the end of your pipe will be the least of a garda worries

cavan shooter

rabbit assassin wrote: »

If banning lead shot for shooting, will they ban the lead weight fishermen use? Being a keen fisherman and shooter myself I have often lost a line or two in weeds, trees etc with lead weights on it. Will this be banned too ? or at the cnuts just trying to put another nail in the coffin for gun owners :mad:

There must be no recession, crime or any other more important issues to deal with. All it is is a bunch of suits that never owned a pair of boots in their lives , telling people what to do on their own beliefs.. and whats more they listen to the anti's before they actually do proper research into hunting and shooting. :mad::mad::mad:

All lead including for fishing, as for the research its out their for all to read as I stated this was signed years ago.

Ronnie Beck

Birdnuts wrote: »

I think it was banned in the US first due to high levels of lead in Wildfowl like Mallards, certain Geese etc. Though I guess Irish Wetlands wouldn't see anything like the amount of shooting as some of their American counterparts.

Nearly all the research in that report is from europe. It suggests that some species in europe have higher levels of shot ingestion than the US. I doesn't say much about Ireland though and I don't think there has been any research done here.

Sure wont it just make a better sport of it:rolleyes:. I'd imagine there would be alot more runners for the dog:D.

http://www.nargc.ie/submissions-and-position-papers/nargc-position-paper-on-leadshot.aspx

ace86

Just for arguments sake if a lead ban came in in the morning for shooting over wetlands and steel shot had to be used what or if any damage could that do to a standard game gun or what modifications are needed to protect the barrels?

FISMA

It's not as I need to be further handicapped [trying] to shoot ducks along the Shannon in Ireland, but I do agree that we should be shooting steel or bismuth over water.

Over land, that's a different story.

Also, for those that want to learn more about metal detectors but don't want a lecture on Faraday's Law - Electromagnetic Induction, click here.

http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/electromag/java/detector/

Mellor

ssl wrote: »

Off topic but wouldn't lead set off a metal detector

jmrc wrote: »

No

?

jmrc you're wrong there. A metal detector detects lead, rather easily due to its density.

Longranger wrote: »

I'm open to correction on this, but I think metal detectors react to iron,so won't be set of by lead, aluminium,copper etc. Only steel or other alloys of iron I think.

Magnetic fields react best to ferous metals, which is how they could be detected by people checking birdshot. A device that measures chages to this field.

But metal detectors, like in the airport, or for searching the beach, are set off all most metals. (There is of course a threshold so zips dont set them off etc)

rabbit assassin

ace86 wrote: »

Just for arguments sake if a lead ban came in in the morning for shooting over wetlands and steel shot had to be used what or if any damage could that do to a standard game gun or what modifications are needed to protect the barrels?

I have an old browning semi-auto (doesn't get much use as its an heirloom) and on the box for holding the chokes theres a warning " NOT SUITABLE FOR USE WITH STEEL SHOT"

I have read and heard some horror stories about chokes being fired from the gun when using steel shot. I'd say its something to do with steel on steel !

dto001

There is a substance I read about in the shooting times a couple of months back call "Nice-shot" its an Eco tungsten. Its supposed to be better than Lead and usable in older guns (I haven't found anywhere that sell it in ireland) But it is expensive it might be cheaper if you could reload but as per usual in Ireland they just take away all options to do things cheaper

dto001

Sorry meant to put up the Link:

http://www.niceshotinc.com/

Double Barrel

ace86 wrote: »

Just for arguments sake if a lead ban came in in the morning for shooting over wetlands and steel shot had to be used what or if any damage could that do to a standard game gun or what modifications are needed to protect the barrels?

There are other choices besides steel.
If you are using bismuth or tungsten polymer, the answer is NO need to change anything including chokes as they pattern and perform the same as lead. It is all about cost.

For steel, first you will need a gun proofed for steel shot.

ace86

Double Barrel wrote: »

There are other choices besides steel.
If you are using bismuth or tungsten polymer, the answer is NO need to change anything including chokes as they pattern and perform the same as lead. It is all about cost.

For steel, first you will need a gun proofed for steel shot.

Do new guns come proofed for steel shot or is it something you have to get done afterwards?

cavan shooter

most newish guns are steel proofed, I bought a second hand beretta 6 years ago and you can put standard steel shells through it also says it in the manual .

I have also shot ducks with steel shells and no bother.

323

cavan shooter wrote: »

most newish guns are steel proofed, I bought a second hand beretta 6 years ago and you can put standard steel shells through it also says it in the manual .

I have also shot ducks with steel shells and no bother.

Agree

As have a 80's browning auto rated for steel.

Shot a lot of duck and goose with steel shot. Just need to reduce maximum range a little.

But steel should not be used with a full choke, Tightest choke that should be used is modified.

Double Barrel

A high performance steel shot cartridge should only be used in guns with the steel shot proof mark, the Fleur de Lis.

target

Very interesting piece on the ICPSA website

The ICPSA has made a submission to the Depart of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht with regard to a consultation on ending the use of lead shot. While the consultation process is based on a proposed restricting or prohibition of the use of lead shot for hunting, as one of the options being put forward was a nationwide ban on the use of lead shot the ICPSA as the National Governing Body for the sport was concerned about the negative impact that such a ban could have on clay target shooting and our members.

We would like to thank the Irish Sports Council, the Federation of Irish Sport, Minister of State Michael Ring TD, the International Shooting Sports Federation, the European Shooting Confederation and FITASC for their support and assistance with our submission and we would hope that we will be able to safeguard the future of our sport by ensuring that any proposed legislation (which is being suggested as coming into force in 2013) will take our concerns into consideration.

target

target wrote: »

Very interesting piece on the ICPSA website

Sorry guys, the reason I posted this in general and not hunting is that I was trying to highlight that the ban is not just about game shooting over wetlands but that they are also considering

as one of the options being put forward was a nationwide ban on the use of lead shot the ICPSA as the National Governing Body for the sport was concerned about the negative impact that such a ban could have on clay target shooting and our members.

That equates to no shooting clays at clay ranges with lead or anywhere else.

Mellor

Can one of the experienced clay shooters explain the significance of steel verses lead.

I amagine they have slightly different spread, speed, ballistics etc that would affect top level guys. Do they break clays the same on contact (assumeing same contact)?

kemen

Mellor wrote: »

Can one of the experienced clay shooters explain the significance of steel verses lead.

I amagine they have slightly different spread, speed, ballistics etc that would affect top level guys. Do they break clays the same on contact (assumeing same contact)?

http://www.icpsa.ie/notices/2199-members-and-clubs-newsletter-january-2012.html
the icpsa's submission is up as a download here which is pretty good!