Arab spring v European Autunm

16-11-2011 1:26pm #1

Strange world really...

The Middle East had an "Arab Spring" where Autocratic/Dictatorship leaders were overthrown, and replaced (going to be replaced) by democratic governments.

While here we have the "European Autumn" where democratic leaders replaced by unelected Autocrats!

Is the EU turning into a dictatorship!

CardBordWindow · 16-11-2011 1:30pm

Sure it's winter now!

sbsquarepants · 16-11-2011 1:32pm

Dictatorship, no. Sure don't they always heed the results of our referendums and the likes!
The eu is nothing more than the 4th reich. If you can't seize it by force, coerce it with money.

Crazy Horse 6 · 16-11-2011 1:34pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Strange world really...

The Middle East had an "Arab Spring" where Autocratic/Dictatorship leaders were overthrown, and replaced (going to be replaced) by democratic governments.

While here we have the "European Autumn" where democratic leaders replaced by unelected Autocrats!

Is the EU turning into a dictatorship!

Lisbon 2 was the gateway. Leaders like Enda who bend over and take it for the elites are lauded as heros by the sheeple of this nation. We deserve all that's coming down the tracks.

ejmaztec · 16-11-2011 1:36pm

CardBordWindow wrote: »

Sure it's winter now!

We're just going into hibernation while the rest of the world gets on with dishing out a good kicking.:(

cosmicfart · 16-11-2011 1:39pm

I wished I lived backed in 1939, people knew how to stand up the Germans back then, bomb the *******

16-11-2011 1:39pm

Crazy Horse 6 wrote: »

Lisbon 2 was the gateway. Leaders like Enda who bend over and take it for the elites are lauded as heros by the sheeple of this nation. We deserve all that's coming down the tracks.

The last election was a sham tbh, this government is being manipulated by the elites for the elites, we may as well have elected Sinn Féin for all the use this government will have.

RichieC · 16-11-2011 1:40pm

Every democracy practically in the world is just a dictatorship with the veneer of choice. It surprises me more people do not understand this.

We might not be stuck with a single ruthless leader like the ones we're all reminded about to the east. but essentially we are stuck with the same crowd of wealthy people making all the important decisions. meanwhile the media manipulates reality for their benefit. democracy is an illusion as it stands.

sensibleken · 16-11-2011 1:44pm

Crazy Horse 6 wrote: »

Lisbon 2 was the gateway. Leaders like Enda who bend over and take it for the elites are lauded as heros by the sheeple of this nation. We deserve all that's coming down the tracks.

No it wasnt. Lisbon introduced nothing that could lead to where we are now. In fact it gave greater powers to national governments and the parliament. What is happening now is purely down to debt and the viability of the Euro.

Lisbon is just a scapegoat for people who didnt bother reading up on it.

16-11-2011 1:45pm

RichieC wrote: »

Every democracy practically in the world is just a dictatorship with the veneer of choice. It surprises me more people do not understand this.

We might not be stuck with a single ruthless leader like the ones we're all reminded about to the east. but essentially we are stuck with the same crowd of wealthy people making all the important decisions. meanwhile the media manipulates reality for their benefit. democracy is an illusion as it stands.

+1

Only now the veneer is slipping!

RichieC · 16-11-2011 1:48pm

Deleted User wrote: »

+1

Only now the veneer is slipping!

We now have a dictatorial economic fundamentalist organisation in our country dictating to our dictators! :pac:

Captain Darling · 16-11-2011 1:49pm

They live, we sleep.

Fact!

biko · 16-11-2011 1:50pm

First of all, I'm not so sure the Arab Spring will mean democracies in the countries it happened in. The anti-democratic Muslim Brotherhood are making headway and if that happens it'll be like when the Shah of Iran was replaced by Ayatollah Khomeini.

Secondly, as said before. There was no real democracy in Europe before today. The EU goes where the money goes. It's based on two principles, peace and common currency, both those in turn simply because there is more money to be made that way.

Pride Fighter · 16-11-2011 2:09pm

There is no dictatorship of the EU. Only a dictatorship of the markets and global capitalism. In Italy and Greece democratic leaders have been replaced by people who will ensure that the rich get paid and the poor suffer austerity.

RichieC · 16-11-2011 3:37pm

Pride Fighter wrote: »

There is no dictatorship of the EU. Only a dictatorship of the markets and global capitalism. In Italy and Greece democratic leaders have been replaced by people who will ensure that the rich get paid and the poor suffer austerity.

Sounds like a dictatorship to me, it's quacking like a duck anyway..

mickydoomsux · 16-11-2011 3:42pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Strange world really...

The Middle East had an "Arab Spring" where Autocratic/Dictatorship leaders were overthrown, and replaced (going to be replaced) by democratic governments.

You do realise that the countries that had their regimes overthrown are just going to end up with different dictators, right?

Sykk · 16-11-2011 4:23pm

cosmicfart wrote: »

I wished I lived backed in 1939, people knew how to stand up the Germans back then, bomb the *******

Smart one, you are.

Celly Smunt · 16-11-2011 5:21pm

mickydoomsux wrote: »

You do realise that the countries that had their regimes overthrown are just going to end up with different dictators, right?

this is true,the only way to clense a country after a dictator is a civil war.

Biggins · 16-11-2011 5:23pm

Deleted User wrote: »

...Is FRANCE AND GERMANY TRYING TO TURN the EU turning into a dictatorship!

That should be the question to ask?

The Outside Agency · 16-11-2011 5:32pm

biko wrote:

First of all, I'm not so sure the Arab Spring will mean democracies in the countries it happened in. The anti-democratic Muslim Brotherhood are making headway and if that happens it'll be like when the Shah of Iran was replaced by Ayatollah Khomeini.

The Shah Of Iran was nothing but a US/UK puppet installed after the coup d'etat of 1953, he was never elected and was a brutal dictator.

Before the coup financed by UK/US, Iran actually had a democracy...check history if you don't believe me.

RichieC · 16-11-2011 5:45pm

nivekd wrote: »

The Shah Of Iran was nothing but a US/UK puppet installed after the coup d'etat of 1953, he was never elected and was a brutal dictator.

Before the coup financed by UK/US, Iran actually had a democracy...check history if you don't believe me.

Why do you hate the jews?

Johro · 16-11-2011 6:06pm

RichieC wrote: »

Every democracy practically in the world is just a dictatorship with the veneer of choice. It surprises me more people do not understand this.

We might not be stuck with a single ruthless leader like the ones we're all reminded about to the east. but essentially we are stuck with the same crowd of wealthy people making all the important decisions. meanwhile the media manipulates reality for their benefit. democracy is an illusion as it stands.

True.
'People... When they're very young, they get pushed around in buggies.
When they're very old, they get pushed around in wheelchairs.
In between, they just get pushed around.' (Tom Robbins)

Mike 1972 · 16-11-2011 6:10pm

Pride Fighter wrote: »

In Italy and Greece democratic leaders have been replaced by people who will ensure that the rich get paid and the poor suffer austerity.

Democratic leaders ? Italy ? WTF ?

Toby Take a Bow · 16-11-2011 6:19pm

RichieC wrote: »

Every democracy practically in the world is just a dictatorship with the veneer of choice. It surprises me more people do not understand this.

It's the 'veneer of choice' that seems to be the difference between the European Autumn and the Arab spring. If you are given a democratic choice - regardless of whether the system means you just vote in the same people under a different banner - then there will always be a dismissive attitude to protesting by the elite and those in power: why are you protesting if you have the ability to change who's in power?

They forget to point out, of course, that the choice is between dumb and dumber.

The Outside Agency · 16-11-2011 6:25pm

RichieC wrote: »

Why do you hate the jews?

That's the usual response.

Einhard · 16-11-2011 6:26pm

I know it's fashonable to pretend that we're all oppressed, and have no say in how we're governed, but it doesn't stand up to any form of scrutiny.

We had an election in the spring. probably for the first time ever in an Irish election, there was a clear, demarcated choice between two very different options. We could vote for FF, FG, or Labour and continue to deal with the eonomic crisis in much the same way as we had under the previous administration, or we could vote for SF and the socialist parties, abjure the deals we had arrived at with the IMF and the EU, renounce the bank bailout, burn the bondholders, and take our chances.

People may be unhappy with the decision of the electorate but the fact is that there was a clear choice on how to proceed, and we were the ones who made it. To state then that we live in a form of dictatorshop is both completely nonsensical, arrogant, and somewhat offensive to boot.

The Outside Agency · 16-11-2011 6:32pm

Einhard wrote:

We had an election in the spring. probably for the first time ever in an Irish election, there was a clear, demarcated choice between two very different options...

With all respect, that's sh1te sir.

or we could vote for SF and the socialist parties, abjure the deals we had arrived at with the IMF and the EU, renounce the bank bailout, burn the bondholders, and take our chances.

oooh, sounds risky. i don't like change really, that's why i vote FF.

Einhard · 16-11-2011 6:38pm

nivekd wrote: »

With all respect, that's sh1te sir.

With all respect, if you didn't notice the difference between the manifestos of, say, Fianna Fail and the United Left Alliance, then you must have been living under a rock for the first few months of the year.

oooh, sounds risky. i don't like change really, that's why i vote FF.

At least you get a choice. Choosing one's government generaly isn't somethat that dictators smile upon.

Johro · 16-11-2011 6:40pm

Einhard wrote: »

I know it's fashonable to pretend that we're all oppressed, and have no say in how we're governed, but it doesn't stand up to any form of scrutiny.

We had an election in the spring. probably for the first time ever in an Irish election, there was a clear, demarcated choice between two very different options. We could vote for FF, FG, or Labour and continue to deal with the eonomic crisis in much the same way as we had under the previous administration, or we could vote for SF and the socialist parties, abjure the deals we had arrived at with the IMF and the EU, renounce the bank bailout, burn the bondholders, and take our chances.

People may be unhappy with the decision of the electorate but the fact is that there was a clear choice on how to proceed, and we were the ones who made it. To state then that we live in a form of dictatorship is both completely nonsensical, arrogant, and somewhat offensive to boot.

I don't. I just know that people think they have a lot more freedom than they actually do. You find that out when you protest.
(I was for option #2, by the way).
When it all comes down to it though, financial institutions rule the world.

The Outside Agency · 16-11-2011 6:41pm

Einhard wrote: »

With all respect, if you didn't notice the difference between the manifestos of, say, Fianna Fail and the United Left Alliance, then you must have been living under a rock for the first few months of the year.

Yeah, but what's in a manifesto really? Just a load of empty promises.
Any reasonable person knows politicians are as crooked as barrel of snakes.

At least you get a choice. Choosing one's government generaly isn't somethat that dictators smile upon.

Having the choice is over rated IMHO.
Money offers much more leverage than a vote at the ballot box anyday.

Toby Take a Bow · 16-11-2011 6:41pm

Einhard wrote: »

We had an election in the spring. probably for the first time ever in an Irish election, there was a clear, demarcated choice between two very different options. We could vote for FF, FG, or Labour and continue to deal with the eonomic crisis in much the same way as we had under the previous administration, or we could vote for SF and the socialist parties, abjure the deals we had arrived at with the IMF and the EU, renounce the bank bailout, burn the bondholders, and take our chances.

There is no way we could have elected a Sinn Fein government (not enough candidates in the election), and that would apply to Labour as well. Also, keep in mind that Sinn Fein up the north are implementing policies that are nearly identical to the ones they're complaining about in the Dail.

So, the only option was to have Fianna Fail, or Fine Gael (who are the same as Fianna Fail) tempered with Labour (who are the same as FF and FG). Such glorious choice!

RichieC · 16-11-2011 6:43pm

Even if the ULA had of taken the government the bailouts would still be going ahead...

Einhard · 16-11-2011 6:45pm

nivekd wrote: »

Yeah, but what's in a manifesto really? Just a load of empty promises.
Any reasonable person knows politicians are as crooked as barrel of snakes.

I like your style! You state we don't have choice; when the choices we have are pointed out to you, you just ignore it and insist again that we don't have choce. You must never lose an argument!

I consider myself pretty reasonable, and I'm quite sure that the likes of Richard Boyd Barrett and Joe Higgins meant what they stated in their manifestos. I don't think it's credible that, after lifetimes of opposing the capitalist system, such people are suddenly going to abandon all their principles and embrace such a system. That notion is the one that flies in the face of reason.

Having the choice is over rated IMHO.
Money offers much more leverage than a vote at the ballot box anyday.

So you concede we do have choice then?

Johro · 16-11-2011 6:46pm

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

There is no way we could have elected a Sinn Fein government (not enough candidates in the election), and that would apply to Labour as well. Also, keep in mind that Sinn Fein up the north are implementing policies that are nearly identical to the ones they're complaining about in the Dail.

So, the only option was to have Fianna Fail, or Fine Gael (who are the same as Fianna Fail) tempered with Labour (who are the same as FF and FG). Such glorious choice!

To be fair, if you feel that way you should have voted for the alliance. If people don't change their voting habits, they don't get change.

Einhard · 16-11-2011 6:47pm

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

There is no way we could have elected a Sinn Fein government (not enough candidates in the election), and that would apply to Labour as well. Also, keep in mind that Sinn Fein up the north are implementing policies that are nearly identical to the ones they're complaining about in the Dail.

So, the only option was to have Fianna Fail, or Fine Gael (who are the same as Fianna Fail) tempered with Labour (who are the same as FF and FG). Such glorious choice!

There were numerous socialist candidates running around the country, and more importantly, the option was there for anyone to run, and choose their own platform. So yes, the choice was there. People had options.

Toby Take a Bow · 16-11-2011 7:59pm

Johro wrote: »

To be fair, if you feel that way you should have voted for the alliance. If people don't change their voting habits, they don't get change.

I did.

Einhard wrote: »

There were numerous socialist candidates running around the country, and more importantly, the option was there for anyone to run, and choose their own platform. So yes, the choice was there. People had options.

And these independents would form a government? Again, you're not listing credible choices which will result in offering the people an alternative to the status-quo. Anybody can indeed run, but they need money to do so, and it sure helps if they have a party apparatus behind them to do it. Also, 'numerous' socialist candidates was how many, exactly? I can think of 20 socialist candidates running in the election, and I think I'm being over generous there.

Johro · 16-11-2011 9:02pm

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

I did.

In that case, fair play. I wish more people had. People always say 'sure there's no point in voting for them, they'll never get in, they're too small a party, they won't get enough votes', take your pick. The problem is that as long as everyone thinks like that, we're stuck with the same old shite.

Toby Take a Bow · 16-11-2011 10:01pm

Johro wrote: »

In that case, fair play. I wish more people had. People always say 'sure there's no point in voting for them, they'll never get in, they're too small a party, they won't get enough votes', take your pick. The problem is that as long as everyone thinks like that, we're stuck with the same old shite.

I definitely agree. No point railing against the system if you're not prepared to vote for someone who could possibly change all that, and actually give you a credible voice. But it will be a long time down the road if they ever become a credible electable alternative. Having said that, I've stopped voting Labour as I don't see them as a left party, and would only vote independent if not given the option of a ULA candidate. Thankfully that hasn't happened recently, and long may it continue.

They also need to start bickering. You could see the PBFA and SP cracks within the first week of the Dail.

Arab spring v European Autunm

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