Excess Congestion in Galway, The Real Cost of Roadworks.

Sponge Bob

OK, we know Galway is congested. I don't want to hear why from anyone ( well only one person in particular but lets say 'anyone' anyways). Why is strictly off topic and there are plenty of why threads in this forum anyway.

We also KNOW that EVERY attempt to deal with the Congestion, starting with the Moneenageisha fiasco and continuing at various locations Citywide since have caused EVEN MORE CONGESTION.

What I am trying to do is to calculate the cumulative cost of the EXCESS Congestion, ie Congestion over and above NORMAL Congestion and all of it deliberately caused by road works.

I would think that the knock on effects of the Séamus Quirke Road job alone will cost €1m a week in time, delayed deliveries, petrol burnt sitting around, people no longe rshopping in Galway but in Athlone or Ennis etc etc. The SQR job will last 70 - 80 weeks meaning that the EXCESS congestion alone will cost €70-80m by the time it is done and that only on one project.

Then, of course, we simply go back to normal congestion as there will be no new road space at the end of it.

We face having the magic roundabout removed in late 2012 or early 2013 and we also face works on the Tuam Road and in Ballybrit roundabouts in early 2012.....or will they start in December 2011 as I heard rumoured????

By the time they finish with all of this fannying around we will have wasted as much money as we would have spent Bypassing Galway and that just in EXCESS congestion. Normal congestion will continue.

I am wondering whether anyone else has tried to calculate the cumulative costs of all this idiocy...all I can figure out is that they are utterly massive.

Lets hear it.

Sponge Bob

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I would think that the knock on effects of the Séamus Quirke Road job alone will cost €1m a week in time, delayed deliveries, petrol burnt sitting around, people no longe rshopping in Galway but in Athlone or Ennis etc etc.

Do you have anything to back this number up?

I agree that there are externalities (both positive and negative) to making changes or doing works that should be considered but I find it hard to believe this one project will cost the average Galway city resident €933.

?Cee?view

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I don't want to hear why from anyone ( well only one person in particular but lets say 'anyone' anyways).

Couldn't agree more! Far too many threads are being highjacked to push individuals' obsessions and ideologies.

With regard to the SQR, it would also be interesting to know what providing a bus lane will have cost, divided over the amount of bus trips on it over, say, a year or two. In effect, each bus ticket is subsidised by the cost of the bus lane. Of course, all the road users will have contributed to this subsidy, not just those who are lucky enough and in a position to be able to use the bus.

Sponge Bob

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you have anything to back this number up?

I agree that there are externalities (both positive and negative) to making changes or doing works that should be considered but I find it hard to believe this one project will cost the average Galway city resident €933.

Well 20,000 cars delayed during 2 peak hours morning and 2 peak hours evening and left sitting there an inordinate time would burn 2 litres of extra fuel each 1 litre morning and 1 litre evening. I think the road carries around 50000 cars a day but 30000 would travel at times when they were not delayed and are therefore discounted.

That would cost €3 x 20,000 x 5 days a week or €300k alone.

€300k x 80 weeks = €24m, twice as much as the cost of the job itself.

antoobrien

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Well 20,000 cars delayed during 2 peak hours morning and 2 peak hours evening and left sitting there an inordinate time would burn 2 litres of extra fuel each 1 litre morning and 1 litre evening. I think the road carries around 50000 cars a day but 30000 would travel at times when they were not delayed and are therefore discounted.

That would cost €3 x 20,000 x 5 days a week or €300k alone.

€300k x 80 weeks = €24m, twice as much as the cost of the job itself.

I think your figures on the vehicular traffic is a bit high. The smarter travel plan had approx 36k trips on the QB, with about 12k trips on the N59, I'd say that the figures you've given are probably maximum costs to the motorist.

On the other hand the government are probably delighted to be getting the extra vat & excise duty due to the extra fuel this trip is costing.

The OP is correct there are a lot of people not coming into Galway due to the traffic mess, so that's costing jobs in the log run. That's a much harder thing to judge.

Do you remember when Digital closed the hardware section in the early 90s? There were 700 odd jobs lost direct and they were saying that there were 2/3 jobs being supported by each one. The multiplier wouldn't be as bad now but each job lost means that money isn't circulating.

I'd estimate that the lack of facilities (no proof to back this up, just a gut estimate) combined with the option not to come to Galway to shop is costing Galway businesses 500k or so every week.

snubbleste

churchview wrote: »

With regard to the SQR, it would also be interesting to know what providing a bus lane will have cost, divided over the amount of bus trips on it over, say, a year or two. In effect, each bus ticket is subsidised by the cost of the bus lane. Of course, all the road users will have contributed to this subsidy, not just those who are lucky enough and in a position to be able to use the bus.

You'd also have to monetise the effect of removing X people from their private automobiles onto public transport - less petrol being purchased therefore less revenue for the State, the more public transport users the less congestion & the more acceptable this transportation mode, the stress levels of being stuck in traffic & resulting employee absenteeism, the future health implications of residents on routes in relation to less car fumes.

There are lots of pluses and minuses. You need to contract a transport/environmental economist Spongebob.

Sponge Bob

snubbleste wrote: »

You need to contract a <cnip> environmental economist Spongebob.

:eek: NooooooOOOOOOO! :eek:

I would like to stick to what it costs the people of Galway for now.

I do know that every litre of fuel results in lots of tax being raised...but I need to stack all the direct costs to Galway people and visitors first and then start netting off stuff against it...like collision stats ( these will disimprove post bypass) or how many Roscommon people will prematurely die EG because the A and E in Galway is on the 'wrong' side of town past the traffic jams.

McTigs

churchview wrote: »

Couldn't agree more! Far too many threads are being highjacked to push individuals' obsessions and ideologies.

With regard to the SQR, it would also be interesting to know what providing a bus lane will have cost, divided over the amount of bus trips on it over, say, a year or two. In effect, each bus ticket is subsidised by the cost of the bus lane. Of course, all the road users will have contributed to this subsidy, not just those who are lucky enough and in a position to be able to use the bus.

Why would you divide it over the number of bus trips on it over a year or two when it's going to be there for decades?

Why would you want to work out about the initial cost and knock on cost of short term inconvenience for works that will give future benefit?

Are all the current and proposed roadworks in galway being suggested as a waste of time and money?

Is Moneenagisha a fiasco? don't think so i pass through it often and it's fine.

Sorry but this whole thread stinks of narrow minded short termism.

galwaycyclist

antoobrien wrote: »

I'd estimate that the lack of facilities (no proof to back this up, just a gut estimate) combined with the option not to come to Galway to shop is costing Galway businesses 500k or so every week.

Yes but the argument this throws up is that people coming to the city to engage in trade or commerce - even at a "personal" level - are being obstructed by commuter traffic and school run traffic that should not have to be universally car bound.

If we can get the commuters out of their cars does that not free up system capacity for other activities? the challenge is how put a value on that.

antoobrien

McTigs wrote: »

Is Moneenagisha a fiasco? don't think so i pass through it often and it's fine.

Yes it is a fiasco - it's never taken me less than 15 minutes to get from Eyre Sqaure to the lights (on #9 bus) - this an a saturday afternoon with no traffic. One friday it took 30 minutes.

I've sat at the lights for 30 minutes watching traffic flows on a few Saturday afternoons. Average wait times are 5 minutes + from Wellpark, 5 mins from the Lough Atalia junction (the rest of the time is spent getting to that point from Eyre Sq), about 3 minutes from cemetrary cross (but then there seems to be way less traffic using that road since the lights went in). The only benefit seems to be for traffic coming in from the Dublin road.

Before anybody starts crying pedestrians - they're just ignoring the lights crossing where & when they can. Cyclists are doing pretty much the same.

It's funny how I only ever hear people on boards & the city council (who have to defend the fiasco) saying that this junction is good for anybody.

antoobrien

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Yes but the argument this throws up is that people coming to the city to engage in trade or commerce - even at a "personal" level - are being obstructed by commuter traffic and school run traffic that should not have to be universally car bound.

If we can get the commuters out of their cars does that not free up system capacity for other activities? the challenge is how put a value on that.

Commuters & schools doesn't explain Saturday traffic.

dixiefly

Interesting thread.

I have needed to go to Galway (from Meath) over the years for work purposes, interviews, bringing my daughter to the Gaeltacht and now in recent months bringing my daughter to NUI Galway.

I commute to Dublin about 50% of the time and also travel to Cork & Belfast and i find Galway the most frustrating traffic wise. While Dublin traffic has definitely improved in recent years Galway has definitely got worse. It is extremely frustrating getting caught in the traffic at times that you would expect to be ok.

When factoring in costs you should also think of return tourism. We stayed in Galway last week. The hotel we stayed in was one of the nicest I have stayed in in Ireland and the staff were fantastic. However, while recommending the place to people I think I added the caveat that visitors must be prepared to contend with the traffic. Those traffic issues are the single reason putting me off returning on holiday (though I will be over & back with a daughter in NUIG).

On a positive side, the Dublin - Galway road is a huge advantage now and the drive over is real easy. Also people around Galway seem to have more road manners and seem less agressive than those on the East coast.

galwaycyclist

antoobrien wrote: »

Before anybody starts crying pedestrians - they're just ignoring the lights crossing where & when they can. Cyclists are doing pretty much the same.

If we are analysing congestion then we should restrict our analyses of unlawful behaviour to how it impacts congestion. In this case the central point is not whether they are obeying the law. It is whether there are more or less of them than before the change and whether they have experienced an increase in the "level of service", be it lawful or not, over the original design. Are they getting to work more quickly with less delay?

antoobrien

galwaycyclist wrote: »

If we are analysing congestion then we should restrict our analyses of unlawful behaviour to how it impacts congestion. In this case the central point is not whether they are obeying the law.

So it's okay for pedestrians & cyclists to put themselves in danger because it's inconvenient to follow the rules?

I'm not restricting my analysis (incomplete as it is) to the unlawful behavior either. I didn't count the amount of 3 point turns I saw in wellpark to relieve the pressure on this junction (more than 5 on one occasion in the time it took to walk between the Redemptorists & the retail park).

One of the main reasons for the continued support of posters for lights is that they are (supposedly) safer & faster for pedestrians & cyclists. What's the point in putting these facilities in place when they aren't being used? In my experience lights are more inconvenient than RABs for cyclists & pedestrians.

I also (perhaps paradoxically) find lights to be more dangerous. When using lights a red light sometimes doesn't stop a car (I'm sure everyone has witnessed this, I usually see it at least once a day) - so you're trusting that the cars will obey the red light (the reason I'm against the right turn boxes for cyclists in the current junction plans for the various RABs). In the case of RABs you know that a car won't stop - so you're not going to step out if it's not safe.

galwaycyclist wrote: »

It is whether there are more or less of them than before the change and whether they have experienced an increase in the "level of service", be it lawful or not, over the original design. Are they getting to work more quickly with less delay?

Based on my experience of using that RAB in the past vs the new layout I would have to say no.

Based on what people are telling me about their experience of using the new layout it seems to be widely regarded as a disaster. E.g. I know a few people what work in the financial services hub (formerly Western Motors). They tell me it takes several minutes longer (in one case it was at least 10) to use the junction that it did before the lights. This is important because these people have no choice but to use the moneen junction.

Discodog

I wish you well Sponge Bob & admire you for attempting the impossible. Avoid any so called "experts" - they are the ones who have caused this mess.

The City is divided into East & West. I will not go further East than Tescos unless I can't avoid it. Caulfieds is a good example as Galway customers avoid the journey to Oranmore & insist on their items being delivered to the Tuam Road branch.

Any journey East has to be planned to avoid the rush hour but this is getting more difficult as the daily traffic increases. The City will end up as two separate zones which makes business extremely difficult. Any new business has to decide which side of Galway to serve.

During a recession everything should be done to make travel into Galway as cheap & effective as possible. Any non essential, long term, roadworks should be stopped to save money & to not cause any unnecessary delays.

Even if you got a million signatures on a petition it would not change Galway Council. It might be different if say 50% of businesses refused to pay their rates but it is impossible to get people to take direct action.

We all know that the cost to businesses & individuals is huge - proving & quantifying it is not so easy especially as the "experts" will be ready to shoot you down.

Sponge Bob

Discodog wrote: »

The City is divided into East & West. I will not go further East than Tescos unless I can't avoid it.

Any journey East has to be planned to avoid the rush hour but this is getting more difficult as the daily traffic increases. The City will end up as two separate zones which makes business extremely difficult. Any new business has to decide which side of Galway to serve.

That describes Galway very well, almost two cities separated by a traffic jam.

We all know that the cost to businesses & individuals is huge - proving & quantifying it is not so easy especially as the "experts" will be ready to shoot you down.

Let's try shall we. We are only interested in EXCESS costs incurred as a result of frankly ill advised schemes.....not the NORMAL jam related costs which are continual and have been for years...and yes they are generally self inflicted as a consequence of bad planning and service asymmetry.

ciotog

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Well 20,000 cars delayed during 2 peak hours morning and 2 peak hours evening and left sitting there an inordinate time would burn 2 litres of extra fuel each 1 litre morning and 1 litre evening. I think the road carries around 50000 cars a day but 30000 would travel at times when they were not delayed and are therefore discounted.

That would cost €3 x 20,000 x 5 days a week or €300k alone.

€300k x 80 weeks = €24m, twice as much as the cost of the job itself.

I'm wondering if you're still a bit high on the fuel consumption. This is curiosity for me - I'm not claiming any great method here to my workings and don't disagree with your basic premise. Doing some searching on Google and you get a variance between 0.5 and 1 litre per hour of idling. If we assume the maximum consumption there then you're arguing that the 20,000 cars have an additional (over normal congestion) hour idling morning and evening? I'm not convinced it's that high. The (national) average distance for persons travelling to work (2006 census data) is ~ 16km which is around the distance mentioned in http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75488089&postcount=51 where the poster talks about a variance of about 30 minutes. If we assume that's additional idling and is also representative of the evening delay then it's about half what you've mentioned above. That's still the same as the cost of the job itself - on wasted fuel alone.

Sponge Bob

I threw that number out as an EG to get a better number Ciotóg, many thanks.

I would say the Excess delay for SQR is 30 mins divided into 20 mins idling and 10 mins crawling and stop starting over and above 'normal' congestion.

Shall we calculate that for say 20,000 cars affected by the SQR 5 days a week. Looks like you were spot on Ciotóg!

30 mins in the morning and 30 mins in the evening of Excess delay divided into 40 mins idling and 20 mins crawling times the 80 weeks to do the job.

40 mins * 0.75L @ €1.50 a litre = (€1.12c*0.66) or 75c spend idling ( times 20,000 cars times 5 days a week or €75,000 a week and €6m over 80 weeks.

I assume that if your car crawls and accelerates off you double the ful consumption so.

20 mins * 1.5L @ €1.50 a litre = (€2.25c*0.33) spent crawling ( times 20,000 cars times 5 days a week or €75,000 a week and €6m over 80 weeks.

Sum total for 20,000 cars and EXCESS fuel consumption alone = €12m which is around the current price of the entire job. Arguably by forcing excess fuel consumption on the population fo Galway by doing the SQR job the government got half of the cost of it back on Excise/VAT on the fuel burn alone.

Then we are back to normal congestion next year when they finish.

It should take all of 10 mins to get from Knocknacarra to the Airport and you should burn around 50c of fuel from cold, total.

Iwannahurl

Couple of UK papers on the subject.

http://www.njug.org.uk/publication/93

http://www.london-first.co.uk/documents/Road_Sense_WEB_FINAL.pdf

Webbs

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I threw that number out as an EG to get a better number Ciotóg, many thanks.

I would say the Excess delay for SQR is 30 mins divided into 20 mins idling and 10 mins crawling and stop starting over and above 'normal' congestion.

Shall we calculate that for say 20,000 cars affected by the SQR 5 days a week. Looks like you were spot on Ciotóg!

30 mins in the morning and 30 mins in the evening of Excess delay divided into 40 mins idling and 20 mins crawling times the 80 weeks to do the job.

40 mins * 0.75L @ €1.50 a litre = (€1.12c*0.66) or 75c spend idling ( times 20,000 cars times 5 days a week or €75,000 a week and €6m over 80 weeks.

I assume that if your car crawls and accelerates off you double the ful consumption so.

20 mins * 1.5L @ €1.50 a litre = (€2.25c*0.33) spent crawling ( times 20,000 cars times 5 days a week or €75,000 a week and €6m over 80 weeks.

Sum total for 20,000 cars and EXCESS fuel consumption alone = €12m which is around the current price of the entire job. Arguably by forcing excess fuel consumption on the population fo Galway by doing the SQR job the government got half of the cost of it back on Excise/VAT on the fuel burn alone.

Then we are back to normal congestion next year when they finish.

It should take all of 10 mins to get from Knocknacarra to the Airport and you should burn around 50c of fuel from cold, total.

Dont forget that the government gets approx 60% of the fuel cost in tax so the government will according to your sums actually get back around 7m euro of that in tax and duty.

I actually dont think the delays are are bad as you make out. There will always be delays at rush hour in cities and it varies hugely in Galway from one day to the next, for example if you travel as I do from Renmore to Shantalla daily I havent seen any effect from the SQ works and I also saw little or no effect when the work was being done on the Bridge. Whereas there are obvious delays in the other direction.

Yes the Outer bypass is badly needed but so is an upgrade of roads and junctions in the city to facilitate both cars and other road users which is what they are doing. The outer bypass was taken out of our hands by other agencies so we should just get on and be thankful that there is money available for these upgrades (and keep our fingers crossed that they make a difference).

Also not sure about your expectations for commuter travel if you use your Knocknacarra to airport example, are you saying you should average 80km/hr through a built up city environment at the busiest times (and incidentally I dont think there is any part of that road where the speed limit is higher than 80)

Sponge Bob

Webbs wrote: »

Dont forget that the government gets approx 60% of the fuel cost in tax so the government will according to your sums actually get back around 7m euro of that in tax and duty.

I said 50% but I accept 60%. The money is straight out of our pockets in Galway though.

antoobrien

Webbs wrote: »

Also not sure about your expectations for commuter travel if you use your Knocknacarra to airport example, are you saying you should average 80km/hr through a built up city environment at the busiest times (and incidentally I dont think there is any part of that road where the speed limit is higher than 80)

Considering I cycled from Briarhill to the tennis club one day in 15 minutes the suggested time (while a little generous) is not as as unreasonable as it appears. On the day there was a good following wind, which made cycling home a royal pain (took 40 minutes), and I did hit all the lights just right.

According to google earth the route I took should take 17 minutes in a car, using a little over a liter of petrol (which would be in line with my cars normal fuel economy), costing about €1.66.

So a 20 ood minute commute between Knockncara & the estate in Parkmore is not an unreasonable expectation.

BTW the speed limit on the racecourse stretch of the BNT is 100km/h.

Sponge Bob

Sponge Bob wrote: »

30 mins in the morning and 30 mins in the evening of Excess delay divided into 40 mins idling and 20 mins crawling times the 80 weeks to do the job.

*I have never lived or worked on that side of town so I have no experience of congestion there so:

How long on an average school/work day morning did it take to drive from somewhere in Knocknacarra to say the back of the hospital before the works started and how long is it taking now?

Are people spending an extra hour in their cars compared to 2008?

Doc Ruby

snubbleste wrote: »

You'd also have to monetise the effect of removing X people from their private automobiles onto public transport

How many people are going to leave aside their cars for buses though? Between the weather, bringing kids to school, health, and just plain personal choice I can't see someone paying for insurance, road tax, maintenance, NCTs, and the sunk cost of the car itself only to hop on a bus.

Trying to make life harder for motorists and setting up bus lanes in areas where a single bus only runs once every half hour anyway is cargo cult thinking.

Environmentally we'll all be using battery powered cars anyway before too long.

Webbs wrote: »

Dont forget that the government gets approx 60% of the fuel cost in tax so the government will according to your sums actually get back around 7m euro of that in tax and duty.

The government runs wholly on the proceeds of the private sector, so you have to figure in lost productivity, lets say half the average industrial wage per hour, which is what, €17.50 per hour.