New Bus Service - Limerick to Luas

Armada

Hi All,

I cam across this site this morning when looking to buy train ticket from Limerick to Dublin. It didnt suit me time wise but might be of use to some:

http://www.kellytravel.ie/plaza-express/

€1 for Limerick to Red Cow Luas - 2 hour journey time.
Good to see a small business trying to offer something a bit different.

Jehuty42

The first 5 seats on each departure from Limerick are available for only €1 when booked in advance.

Normal fare is still only €10 each way.

Just to clear things up. Seems a bit too cheap to be sustainable.

Losty Dublin

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Just to clear things up. Seems a bit too cheap to be sustainable.

€1 is if it's booked in advance; it's €10 each way otherwise. Add on your Luas fare as well for a real fare and just two buses a day each way.

I wonder aloud if has he a route licence for this service.

Run_to_da_hills

With no stop offs he would want to have a full bus to make it pay for itself.

AlekSmart

Losty Dublin wrote: »

€1 is if it's booked in advance; it's €10 each way otherwise. Add on your Luas fare as well for a real fare and just two buses a day each way.

I wonder aloud if has he a route licence for this service.

Wonder not...well ok...up to the 31/10/2011 it seems so....

Michael Kelly Kelly Travel Kilduff Pallasgreen Co. Limerick 05083 Continuous 31/10/2011 Kilduff Limerick

Presumably it has been renewed from 05/12...?

Judgement Day

Just because somebody can just about eke out a living from running a bus/courier van/truck does not make it a desirable situation. The country is littered with cowboy operators in the bus/road haulage/courier/business and, before anybody asks, I'm not quoting any examples.

highlydebased

And according to the timetable the evening service goes back in time....



Monday to Friday Limerick Red Cow LUAS
Morning 07:15 09:15
Evening 19:15 17:15

LaFlammeRouge

highlydebased wrote: »

And according to the timetable the evening service goes back in time....



Monday to Friday Limerick Red Cow LUAS
Morning 07:15 09:15
Evening 19:15 17:15

You're reading it wrong

highlydebased

LaFlammeRouge wrote: »

You're reading it wrong

.....true! It's laid out somewhat confusingly

Armada

Sorry ya, should have mentioned about the limit of 5 €1 seats per day.

Still not a bad option if the timing suits.

Alternatives are the over priced train or the 3 & half to 4 hour bus with BE or JJ.


I think they have spotted a niche and are going for it, why not.
It is not as if Bus Eireann & CIE are offering such a magnificent service that there is no room for private operators to step in and do it right.


I do agree with the cowboy comment though, there are far too many cowboys flaunting the laws and not adhering to regulations in a great deal of business sectors in Ireland - However you cant say that just because they are a small buisness that they are cowboys though.

Armada

Armada wrote: »

Sorry ya, should have mentioned about the limit of 5 €1 seats per day.

Still not a bad option if the timing suits.

Alternatives are the over priced train or the 3 & half to 4 hour bus with BE or JJ.


I think they have spotted a niche and are going for it, why not.
It is not as if Bus Eireann & CIE are offering such a magnificent service that there is no room for private operators to step in and do it right.


I do agree with the cowboy comment though, there are far too many cowboys flaunting the laws and not adhering to regulations in a great deal of business sectors in Ireland - However you cant say that just because they are a small buisness that they are cowboys though.

Just noticed that the site has changed - looks like they are watching us, lol.

Timetable is a bit clearer anyway.

Also the site now says:
"...all new bus service.*
*Subject to licence."

Perhaps they gave too much info too soon

bk

Great to see another private operator running a direct non stop service on the motorways to Dublin.

Hopefully this is a sign that we will soon see more similar services being licensed to Cork, Limerick, Waterford, etc.

Disappointing to see how infrequent it is and no onboard toilet.

Also a pity it can't run to Dublin city and Airport. I assume they choose this route as someone else has already applied for Limerick to Dublin City/Airport. Hopefully someone big like gobus or Citylink who can put a truly high quality frequent service with excellent buses. Lets hope we don't have to wait too long.

Armada

bk wrote: »

Great to see another private operator running a direct non stop service on the motorways to Dublin.

Hopefully this is a sign that we will soon see more similar services being licensed to Cork, Limerick, Waterford, etc.

Disappointing to see how infrequent it is and no onboard toilet.

Also a pity it can't run to Dublin city and Airport. I assume they choose this route as someone else has already applied for Limerick to Dublin City/Airport. Hopefully someone big like gobus or Citylink who can put a truly high quality frequent service with excellent buses. Lets hope we don't have to wait too long.

I agree, it would be great to see a high quality frequent service between all the major cities.
Given the shaky economy I cant see any business, regardless of size, launching a large scale new service.

Do these companies get any help from the government for providing these public buses or are they 100% reliant on the fares they take in?

Dodge

Armada wrote: »

Do these companies get any help from the government for providing these public buses or are they 100% reliant on the fares they take in?

Just because people use them, doesn't make them 'public buses'

Armada

Dodge wrote: »

Just because people use them, doesn't make them 'public buses'

I meant public bus services - services which are open to the public, working to a timetable etc.

LXFlyer

This service is entirely reliant on customer revenues.

Only services licensed under a PSO (Public Service Obligation) contract attact subsidies. These tend to be city bus services and local services (the BE stage carriage services for example).

Run_to_da_hills

bk wrote: »

Disappointing to see how infrequent it is and no onboard toilet.

Just bring an empty lucozade bottle with ya.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

Great to see another private operator running a direct non stop service on the motorways to Dublin.

Hopefully this is a sign that we will soon see more similar services being licensed to Cork, Limerick, Waterford, etc.

Disappointing to see how infrequent it is and no onboard toilet.

Also a pity it can't run to Dublin city and Airport. I assume they choose this route as someone else has already applied for Limerick to Dublin City/Airport. Hopefully someone big like gobus or Citylink who can put a truly high quality frequent service with excellent buses. Lets hope we don't have to wait too long.

I'm not having a go, but repeatedly complaining about this is not going to solve the problem. If you are that convinced such services will work why don't you apply to do it?

Anyone starting an operation such as this is taking a massive risk, given the initial outlay involved in buying the buses, hiring the drivers, marketing etc., with no guarantee that it will produce the diesired results financially.

I admire any operator prepared to give something such as this a go - it's a very tough thing to do, but hopefully it'll work for them.

Higher frequency would need a massive outlay (more buses and drivers) which for a small operator might not be possible.

bk

Armada wrote: »

I agree, it would be great to see a high quality frequent service between all the major cities.
Given the shaky economy I cant see any business, regardless of size, launching a large scale new service.

If two private operators can operate hourly services from Galway to Dublin, I don't see why Cork, Limerick, etc. can't support at least one?

In fact I think it is the prefect time to launch such services. People still need to move between cities. A new service that is as fast as the train, but one third of the price will surely attract lots of customers off the trains who are finding money tight.

People in the past might have said I prefer to take the train, buses are crappy and uncomfortable. But with money tight, they might be more willing to try the bus coach and might find to their surprise, as I recently did, how comfortable the new buses coaches are.

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm not having a go, but repeatedly complaining about this is not going to solve the problem. If you are that convinced such services will work why don't you apply to do it?

Oh I never claimed I'm capable of running such a service, I don't have the money or the operational experience to run such a service.

Also I assume that other established coach operators have already applied for licenses on all the juicy routes, just that the NTA seem to be taking a very long time in licensing these routes.

LXFlyer

Either way whoever does start services like this is taking a risk - and just simply expecting them to do so is not realistic.

It's all very well you saying this is the time to do it etc., but frankly given you're not prepared to do anything why should you expect someone else to just automatically do it? You then start criticising someone who is prepared to do so for the limited schedule - well maybe they cannot afford more than that at the moment.

If operators want to do it we'll find out about in time, but blandly expecting them to immediately risk large sums of money of their own is I think pushing things a bit too far.

Armada

I think you both bk and lxflyer both have valid points.

Well run, frequent, cheap and reliable bus services will work, this has been shown in Galway in particular and in England since they privatized.

However, IMO, Bus Eireann have been running substandard services for so long that the public's preconception is that commuter bus services will always be late, uncomfortable, unhelpful etc etc.

In Galway they must have managed to get past these negative ideas but that is not the case everywhere. For a company to take a chance on running an hourly bus service is a HUGE financial commitment and as lxflyer says, there is no guarantee of any kind of return and there is no state support, as mentioned above.

I would love to know how many minutes in total I have stood waiting for Bus Eireann buses. In my area, the local bus can be up to 15 minutes early (and doesn't wait until the scheduled time) to up to 45 minutes late. This means you have to arrive early and could be waiting up to an hour!!



I think Kelly Travel are being very brave with this effort. Heres hoping they get enough take up to keep it going and maybe even expand the service.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

If operators want to do it we'll find out about in time, but blandly expecting them to immediately risk large sums of money of their own is I think pushing things a bit too far.

But that is where you and I differ. I'm 99% certain some private coach operators are dying to enter this market and applied for licenses years ago, but that the DTO has been dragging their feet on issuing the licenses for years.

This has been pretty much admitted by the NTA when they took over bus licensing and basically admitted that there was a massive back log of license requests for them to work through.

I've no criticism of private operators or the risks they take in laying on a new service. My ire is directed firmly at the government for taking so long to issue licenses and making the most of the multi billion euro motorway network they built.

I'm not a person usually given over to conspiracy theories, but I can think of only two reasons for this:

1) Complete incompetence on the part of the Dept of Transport
2) They are trying to protect Irish Rail and Bus Eireann from private competition.

bk

Armada, I agree, most peoples view of buses is that they are slow and uncomfortable.

I had the same view until a few months ago when I travelled Galway to Dublin via GoBus. Modern high quality coaches that were very comfortable, smooth quiet ride with free wifi and onboard toilets.

My view was changed ever since then and as a regular traveller on Irish Rail between Cork to Dublin, if a similar service was introduced to Cork, I'd never take the train again.

Of course it will take time for the coach companies to convince people they are different from BE. Lots of ads advertising their new modern comfortable buses with free wifi, on board toilets and perhaps €1 fare deals during the first few months will get people to give it a try.

Once you've tried it, I don't think many would go back.

This is what they seemed to do in Galway and it seemed to work very well. The €1 fares are gone, but they seem to be still doing very good business.

Armada

bk wrote: »

2) They are trying to protect Irish Rail and Bus Eireann from private competition.

Bingo!

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

This has been pretty much admitted by the NTA when they took over bus licensing and basically admitted that there was a massive back log of license requests for them to work through.

One other equally important issue currently being worked on by the NTA is the number of Licences held by companies but never activated.

This tactic was quite widely utilized within the private sector to both prevent competitors from operating on particular "turf patches" or to prevent Bus Eireann (in particular) from running a service (or partical service).

However it remained a little known practice until the arrival of the NTA and the removal of the cloak of secrecy.

Whilst some people still view the issue as one of Private vs Public,the more reasoned observer will be aware of a somewhat more complex set of parameters at play.

The Public Transport sector is awash with change,some of it flying in the face of what's whats believed by many,such as,for example the very successful Bus Eireann/Go-Bus co-operation on the Galway road( http://www.gobus.ie/news.php?id=1) and the Bus Eireann/McGeehan venture on the Donegal Road.(http://www.mcgeehancoaches.com/)

The commonly held belief that super-efficient Privateers were all lined up to transform the Public Transport market overnight if only big,bad ol Bus Eireann would fold and run just does'nt stand up to realistic scrutiny any longer,as the market is showing that measured well concieved co-operative ventures achieve better results for everybody concerned.

bk

AlekSmart wrote: »

One other equally important issue currently being worked on by the NTA is the number of Licences held by companies but never activated.

Of course a practise that should never be allowed.

License should be a use it or lose it basis, with a reasonable time period to start up after license issue.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Whilst some people still view the issue as one of Private vs Public,the more reasoned observer will be aware of a somewhat more complex set of parameters at play.

Personally I don't care who operates direct non stop services between Cork/Limerick/etc. and Dublin as long as someone starts to do it.

I admit I'd have a preference for GoBus or CityLink as they seem to operate much higher quality coaches and service then BE. But please god at least someone please start doing it.

SandyfordGuy

I heard today that Aircoach are to make changes to their Dublin to Cork service in the next week or two from a driver on the city routes. Would not say any specifics though.

This seems to bear fruit considering they've changed their Cork timetable page to read valid until 28th November when previously it said until further notice.

Something possibly happening?
http://www.aircoach.ie/table.routes.cork.php

bk

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

I heard today that Aircoach are to make changes to their Dublin to Cork service in the next week or two from a driver on the city routes. Would not say any specifics though.

Don't get my hopes up, a direct non stop service perhaps?

Would make a lot of sense. Obviously someone was going to apply for a direct non stop service license to Cork, not only would it steal customers from Irish Rail, but also from Bus Eireanns and Aircoaches non direct services. Likely such a service would be very popular. Better to cannibalise your own service.

SandyfordGuy

Indeed - however the flip side with this is that the people who are living in the likes of Cashel, Fermoy, Abbeyleix, Durrow and Mitchelstown will lose out big time, so there needs to be a balance really to look after these people, who in my experience still make a significant contribution towards fares on both the operators on the route at the moment.

I think the stop at Monasterevin though that I've never seen anyone get on, on Aircoach should go, much the same as I think Bus Eireann did a short while ago? Dublin Coach have well and truly made that market their own. Kildare should be borderline for the chop as well in my view, but we'll see.

bk

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

Indeed - however the flip side with this is that the people who are living in the likes of Cashel, Fermoy, Abbeyleix, Durrow and Mitchelstown will lose out big time, so there needs to be a balance really to look after these people, who in my experience still make a significant contribution towards fares on both the operators on the route at the moment.

No reason why they can't operate both an express and a multi stop service, if the demand is there. Just like Citylink do to Galway.

Realistically it probably would mean slightly less multi stop services, but there should be enough demand for both.

From Cork, perhaps they could charge €25 for the express and €20 for the multi stop service, to attract more people onto the multi stop service.

SandyfordGuy

From what I have seen on the Cork routes, whilst there is a good number of people on each service that make up the numbers on the current services, I can't really see them being sustainable on their own, without a good reduction to the current timetable.

However it remains to be seen if anyone is willing to take that risk and go for this kind of expansion and see if it works out. The likes of Aircoach and Bus Eireann I get the feeling have been reluctant to try it out for the reasons that lxflyer has pointed out.

devnull

From what I hear if you are getting your hopes up for a non stop service on Dublin to Cork from next week, then you are going to be bitterly disappointed.

Armada

devnull wrote: »

From what I hear if you are getting your hopes up for a non stop service on Dublin to Cork from next week, then you are going to be bitterly disappointed.

Looks like you are right.
Maybe the people running this service from Limerick will expand to Cork?

SandyfordGuy

Armada wrote: »

Looks like you are right.
Maybe the people running this service from Limerick will expand to Cork?

Doubt it, they're a pretty small company and will not have the resources to do it I would imagine. They only have a very small fleet and to invest in new vehicles and drivers would be a huge risk for a small business, the sector has been very heavily hit by the recession.

Armada

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

Doubt it, they're a pretty small company and will not have the resources to do it I would imagine. They only have a very small fleet and to invest in new vehicles and drivers would be a huge risk for a small business, the sector has been very heavily hit by the recession.

True.

LXFlyer

As pointed out before starting non-stop services is a big risk for any operator as they have to invest in buses and staff with no guarantee of high load factors (despite what people may believe as inevitable.).

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

As pointed out before starting non-stop services is a big risk for any operator as they have to invest in buses and staff with no guarantee of high load factors (despite what people may believe as inevitable.).

Hmm, yet over on this thread we have posts about lots of extra full direct peek time services being added on and also almost full non peak, non direct services:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75706503#post75706503

Yeah, no demand :rolleyes:

SandyfordGuy

There are seven days a week, not just two, plus most drivers on such route would be doing at least two trips per duty on a non stop service and they all need to achieve a certain yield else the profits from the undoubtedly busy late evening services are going to not matter a hoot when t hey are lost on the other services operated by the same bus and driver.

EG, someone operating a non stop service to Cork at 7pm in the evening may have a full load, but in the journey the same driver worked from Cork 3 hours earlier he may not have hardly anyone on it. You can't look at it as simple as one journey is full so it will make money, because it still costs money for the bus to go back the way it came in fuel, staff and other costs.

Nobody is disputing there is a lot of demand in late evenings especially around the weekend, but I remain to be convinced there is enough demand for a non stop service 7 days a week all day long, and that is why the operators are reluctant. The fact that has openly been said that buses are overflowing at weekends but not nearly so much other times back this up.

You have to look at the logistics of it, drivers do not drive one journey a day on a long distance service, they have to drive back the other way to get them where they started and home. The cost of the petrol these days means that every service operated non stop is going to need good loads in order to make an overall profit.

Right now if Bus Eireann and Aircoach, both of which are suffering from a very challenging market which has hit them quite hard, are filling coaches up and getting a good return on their existing route, they're not going to risk it.

Armada

Looks like there is going to be a straight dogfight between Dublin Coach and Kelly Travel - both are looking to operate new bus services from Limerick to Dublin, albeit Kelly Travel are only going as far as the Red Cow Luas stop and only once per day.

Both say their price is €10 but Kellys are doing fares from €1 if bought in advance, first 5 seats only.

DC are timetabled for 2hrs 25min to Red cow.
KT are timetable for 2 hrs to Red Cow.

David v Goliath?

What are your thoughts?
I think it is great to have variety and competition, will be interesting to see how it pans out.
I would make us of the Kelly option as it is so quick and cheap but only if the times suited.

bk

Doesn't look like much competition, I would think the Kelly operation times won't suit the majority people and they will end up on Dublin Coach instead.

Also most people probably don't want to be dropped at the Red Cow.

But good to see competition. BE and IR must be really worried about this development.

Armada

Sorry, posted that last one in the wrong thread. Oops!

It will be interesting to see what happens with it though.

Armada

Just spotted this on the Kelly Travel Facebook page - looks like they are still planning to go ahead with this service, even though Dublin Coach have also started their new service.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150586890454186&set=a.10150314951779186.405917.172220254185&type=1&theater

Do you think there is a market for 4 bus companies and a train service?
Noone can argue for a lack of choice anyway!

Armada

more activity - on Facebook again https://www.facebook.com/PlazaExpress

Armada

Kelly Travel are reporting that they have been granted their licence and are being fairly noisy about it on FB - I guess they are going to go ahead with it.

No sign of a start date yet though, I will post if I find one.

Also they mention coffee for €1 at the Coffee Dock in the Plaza building, nice touch that.

http://www.kellytravel.ie/plaza-express/

Armada

Kelly Travel are reporting that they have been granted their licence and are being fairly noisy about it on FB - I guess they are going to go ahead with it.

No sign of a start date yet though, I will post if I find one.

Also they mention coffee for €1 at the Coffee Dock in the Plaza building, nice touch that.

http://www.kellytravel.ie/plaza-express/

Armada

Sorry for the double post above, just noticed it now, Chrome can be funny sometimes.


The Plaza Express service is starting on Monday 30/01 according to the website. Licence 12001

I just bought a ticket for this service for Wednesday 01/02, I have an appointment in Dublin.

Return ticket was €11.

The guy said the online payments are "coming soon" and that I would be emailed my ticket.
I will post my experience of using the service

Armada

I used this service during the week, my experience was as follows:

Bang on time, 2 hours from Limerick, departed at 07:15 and arrived at the Red Cow at 09:14

WiFi worked great, easy to connect and had a good solid connection all the way

The tables on board are a great size and made using my laptop much easier

They even gave me a free copy of the Limerick Post when I got on, nice touch that

Cappuccino from the shop was €1, it is normal shop coffee but very drinkable. Got a decent breakfast there too

Return fare was €11, great value

Driver was friendly and very helpful

The bus was comfortable and roomy, nice and warm but not melting. Not many others on board but it only started on Monday so I guess that's to be expected.

Overall I have to say that the service was very good and I will use them again.

As I am a Limerick lad, I like supporting Limerick businesses where I can.

Anyone else here used this service?

highlydebased

They even gave me a free copy of the Limerick Post when I got on,

The Post is free anyway Nice touch in any case.

Armada

highlydebased wrote: »

The Post is free anyway Nice touch in any case.

Thats true, just thought it was nice having it handed to me as I got on. :cool:

Red Silurian

It's a pity there are no city bus services going out by that place or there are no pick-up points in the city centre!