CID for Privately Paid teacher

evolving_doors

Is there any difference between entitlements for a privately paid teacher (paid by school) and 'regular' Dept. paid teacher when it comes to obtaining a CID?

Starting year 5 (my own hours since year 1) but still awaiting contract.

If anyone is familiar with this situation i'd be grateful for any info as to what i have to look out for in the contract.

Cheers

implausible

I'm afraid there is, yes. At present, privately-paid teachers are not on contracts from the Dept, and because of this are not entitled to CIDs (unless some of the hours are Dept paid). Now, I would make a guess that the ASTI are waiting on a case to test this, as there have to be quite a few teachers in this situation. Get onto your union rep about this.

evolving_doors

Cheers implausible,
I am still a bit confused however as I presumed that ANY employee (no matter what the job) was entitled to a CID under the terms of the fixed term work act (2003)?

implausible

Don't take me as gospel. I'm in the VEC sector, but I do know of a friend who got her CID lately, and it was only based on the Dept. paid section of her hours. The private hours didn't count. I think they are regarded as casual, because they are only granted as needed and not sanctioned as necessary by the Dept. Under that act, I'd imagine that private hours would come under the category of "an objective reason" for not awarding a CID.

Again, I'd imagine the ASTI have a lot more info on this.

evolving_doors

From reading the 2003 act ...HERE... a good few times It would appear on the face of it that at the start of year 5 in a fixed term contract the employee is entitled to a CID as long as the position is viable...
I'm presuming that this act applies to any employee in Ireland whether in public or private employment.


Taken from Section 9 (2)

(2) Subject to subsection (4), where after the passing of this Act a
fixed-term employee is employed by his or her employer or associated employer on two or more continuous fixed-term contracts and
the date of the first such contract is subsequent to the date on which
this Act is passed, the aggregate duration of such contracts shall not
exceed 4 years. [my emphasis]

(3) Where any term of a fixed-term contract purports to contravene subsection (1) or (2) that term shall have no effect and the
contract concerned shall be deemed to be a contract of indefinite
duration.

I can appreciate that there may be 'objectionable grounds' the school would give and that this is the nitty gritty where solicitors make their money in court, but... on the face of it I should be entitled to a CID.

rainbowtrout

That's also my interpretation of it Armelodie. The CID thing was not invented for teachers/PS workers but it seems that's where the term is applied most frequently.

My reading of it would be that you are entitled to a CID under the terms of the Act and the school is your employer.

implausible

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That's also my interpretation of it Armelodie. The CID thing was not invented for teachers/PS workers but it seems that's where the term is applied most frequently.

My reading of it would be that you are entitled to a CID under the terms of the Act and the school is your employer.

I hope you're right, it sounds logical. I still have my doubts though as they can argue that the hours aren't viable because the Dept. didn't sanction them, by making the OPs contract PRPT. Can the Dept. provide a CID for hours that they technically haven't sanctioned or would it be the school giving the CID? Playing devil's advocate here, hope I'm wrong.

golden virginia

http://www.labourcourt.ie/labour/labcourtweb.nsf/cfcbbe5c5fe85fa680256a01005bb356/80256a770034a2ab8025792800393893?OpenDocument

This case deal with a lot of issues to do with teachers CID's including "objective grounds' . The employer here argues against for every reason they can conjure up - the Labour Court upheld the decision that the teachers get a CID.

rainbowtrout

implausible wrote: »

I hope you're right, it sounds logical. I still have my doubts though as they can argue that the hours aren't viable because the Dept. didn't sanction them, by making the OPs contract PRPT. Can the Dept. provide a CID for hours that they technically haven't sanctioned or would it be the school giving the CID? Playing devil's advocate here, hope I'm wrong.

They certainly could argue it, but if they haven't put it in the contract as an objective ground there could be a case for CID. I don't think Dept come into it as all of these hours were privately paid. Worth checking with union though.

implausible

rainbowtrout wrote: »

They certainly could argue it, but if they haven't put it in the contract as an objective ground there could be a case for CID. I don't think Dept come into it as all of these hours were privately paid.

I think this is key. Does your contract mention this OP?

I didn't think that individual schools could award CIDs (but then again, I'm VEC-based). Are there precedents for this? I wonder what the situation would be with redeployments in the event of numbers dropping or the probable PTR increase.

golden virginia

This extract is from the ASTI Website.

Q. Can privately paid CID's be considered for redeployment by the management or is it just Department paid teachers?

A. The redeployment scheme as defined in the Agreement does not comprehend privately paid teachers. This means that if a school has more than its allocation of Department paid teachers it will be Department paid teachers who will be redeployed. The ‘safety’ or otherwise of privately paid teachers is another matter entirely. The absence of a redeployment scheme for such teachers means that, if the school decides to employ fewer teachers from its own resources, it is redundancy, rather than redeployment that faces such teachers. This position is unaffected by the Agreement.

This would suggest that privately paid can get CID's - its the law, but can't access the collective agreement - not the law.

rainbowtrout

implausible wrote: »

I think this is key. Does your contract mention this OP?

I didn't think that individual schools could award CIDs (but then again, I'm VEC-based). Are there precedents for this? I wonder what the situation would be with redeployments in the event of numbers dropping or the probable PTR increase.

Well I suppose most schools don't hire privately paid teachers. Many privately paid teachers are in fee paying schools, so it changes things a little. I suspect as well that many privately paid teachers in schools aren't in those positions in the long term. If a department paid position comes up in their subject in their schools they probably move sideways into it.

evolving_doors

Thanks folks, as regards redeployment ive accepted that im not in that loop so to speak...
From reading a good few of those labour court cases its the objectionable grounds part that are usually contested by the employee/ employer..also im aware that my position may become unviable in the future due to cutbacks etc but this would preclude them from hiring another person in the same role..

although in fairness to the school I can't see them letting me go just yet as it would go against the curriculum/ethos/tradition etc. so I don't think they are out to get me as they've been fairly decent to me in the past and treated me like any other teacher.

my main query is what do I need to look for in a cid or is it a generic contract? our are there any other folks in my situation,, I saw one case in the labour courts cases a few years ago on line but can't find itnow...most cases are dept related...