Fired for going to funeral

LegacyUser

Hi all, i had a thread on here a while ago (might have been personal issues) about my boss not allowing me to go to a close friends funeral. I took on board the advice and let the boss know i would be going to the funeral and would deal with fallout when i returned. So my boss made a complaint about me after i got back. Boss had annual leave and so did i, so its just come up. Anyway the short of it is that i was fired, on grounds of gross misconduct, as i didn't show up to work one day despite being told i couldn't have the day off to attend the funeral.

Now i'm not regretting going to the funeral, it was important to me and i had to go BUT is there anything i can do to fight this? Or do i have to accept it?

thanks!

Eoin

Yep, you have the right to appeal any disciplinary action that is taken against you, as well as the right to have a witness at any of these meetings.

I think your best bet is to get professional legal advice.

ahyeahok

How could that be gross misconduct?
If i did similar in my job i would expect maybe a warning as there is a disciplinary structure in place (actually they would give me the time off in the first place).
Seems an insensitive way to treat you. Did they make it known that your job was in risk if you went to the funeral or any warning like that?

Shelflife

ahyeahok wrote: »

How could that be gross misconduct?
If i did similar in my job i would expect maybe a warning as there is a disciplinary structure in place (actually they would give me the time off in the first place).
Seems an insensitive way to treat you. Did they make it known that your job was in risk if you went to the funeral or any warning like that?

If i remember correctly, the op asked his boss for time off, was refused and basically said screw you im not coming into work anyway.

so you had insubordination, failing to follow orders from a superior and failing to turn up to work when it was made clear to them that they were expected to turn up.

if every employee acted in this way it would be a disaster.

Shelflife

Shelflife wrote: »

If i remember correctly, the op asked his boss for time off, was refused and basically said screw you im not coming into work anyway.

so you had insubordination, failing to follow orders from a superior and failing to turn up to work when it was made clear to them that they were expected to turn up.

if every employee acted in this way it would be a disaster.

And if every employer (mid level manager, by presumption) acted in his way, it would be a disaster for recruitment.

smokiebeverage

Shelflife wrote: »

If i remember correctly, the op asked his boss for time off, was refused and basically said screw you im not coming into work anyway.

so you had insubordination, failing to follow orders from a superior and failing to turn up to work when it was made clear to them that they were expected to turn up.

if every employee acted in this way it would be a disaster.

This is a job not the army the OP is talking about so "insubordination, failing to follow orders" doesn't apply here. As an employer I would think not allowing an employee time off to go to a funeral is disgraceful, no one person is so important to an organization that they can't get a day off, if they are then there are serious issues within the organization.

Eoin

We don't really know how the employer acted though - or at least why they acted like that. For all we know, it could have been a massive PITA for them if the OP had taken the day off - who knows.

bbam

Eoin wrote: »

We don't really know how the employer acted though - or at least why they acted like that. For all we know, it could have been a massive PITA for them if the OP had taken the day off - who knows.

This is it..
At best we only have a bit of half of the story...

Is there anything can be done??
Appeal is always possible and only OP knows the chances of this being worthwhile..

Few general questions OP needs to reflect on before engauging a costly solicitor..

Is there a decent HR system in place? If there is then the manager probably has their backing already which would look bad for an appeal.. If he hasn't then you could have grounds

How clean is your record? Really, are you a company man or the guy who throws a hissy fit every time he doesn't get his way? If the latter it was probably a good opportunity to get rid and they will fight to keep you out..

Your direct manager refused the day off, what did you do to help the decision? Did you look for alternative cover, offer to come in early or stay late after the funeral? Or did you just say F**K this guy I'm doing what suits me and damn the company's needs?

How about your managers boss, if you felt unfairly treated did you move up the food chain to sound out the general feeling??

If it were me and a useful employee with a clean record did this I'd be going straight to final written warning with 12 months review date.

If you were trouble I'd sharpen the knives and cut you loose ASAP and be glad!

Little A

Do you have a Company Policy on such matters?
Did you offer to take the tiime out of your holidays?
Did you offer to work up the time later ?
Did you do all you could to minimise the effect on the company?
Was this a critical time for your company?

I worked for a large Multinational co & the managers from abroad couldn't believe how many funerals we Irish go to. Many employees saw it as their right to go to whatever funerals they wanted & nearly always opted for the morning funeral (rather than the removal which won't usually involve so much time off). To begin with, the company did not dock this time off but when they brought in a policy, they docked (or refused time off) for funerals which did not fall into the policy.

Funeral for "friends" generally fell outside the policy as it is impossible to determine how close a friend is. So the time off was for spouse/child, parents, grand parents, aunts/uncles etc, with a time scale which would reflect the general closeness to the person. So you might get a week for a parent & a day for an aunt. Spouse/child were obviously dealt with case by case. For friends, you would have to approach your manager an work something out with them directly, but I can;t recall anyone being flat out refused once they offered to take holidays or work up the time later.

After the policy was introduced, most people opted to go to the removal as this normally only resulted in 1/2 hours to make up/take off rather than the funeral mass which normally resulted in at least half a day.

Shelflife

smokiebeverage wrote: »

This is a job not the army the OP is talking about so "insubordination, failing to follow orders" doesn't apply here. As an employer I would think not allowing an employee time off to go to a funeral is disgraceful, no one person is so important to an organization that they can't get a day off, if they are then there are serious issues within the organization.

True its not the army, but you are expected to follow orders/direction from your immediate supervisor so yes it does apply.

take a simple senario of two people working in the payroll. one has requested holidays and is off that week, the other is the op, if the op doesnt work that day then the wage for the entire business dont go through in time for the weekend.

so while i agree that noone is that important that they cant usually get a day off there are exceptions.

As an employer I too would try to accomadate in this senario, but sometimes its just not possible.

Milk & Honey

Complain to the employment appeals tribunal for unfair dismissal.

amdublin

ahyeahok wrote: »

How could that be gross misconduct?
If i did similar in my job i would expect maybe a warning as there is a disciplinary structure in place (actually they would give me the time off in the first place).
Seems an insensitive way to treat you. Did they make it known that your job was in risk if you went to the funeral or any warning like that?

How could this be anything BUT gross misconduct.
The op asked for a day off and was told he could not have it.

He chose to ignore this and not come into work for a day. The op has caused is problem by his own actions.

Shelflife wrote: »

If i remember correctly, the op asked his boss for time off, was refused and basically said screw you im not coming into work anyway.

so you had insubordination, failing to follow orders from a superior and failing to turn up to work when it was made clear to them that they were expected to turn up.

if every employee acted in this way it would be a disaster.

Yeah that was pretty much it if I recollect correctly also.

smokiebeverage wrote: »

This is a job not the army the OP is talking about so "insubordination, failing to follow orders" doesn't apply here. As an employer I would think not allowing an employee time off to go to a funeral is disgraceful, no one person is so important to an organization that they can't get a day off, if they are then there are serious issues within the organization.

*This isn't about whether the op was entitled to the day off or not.

He asked for they day off and was told no he could not have it. He needed to accept that. He chose not to and chose not to come into work for a day. Gross misconduct.




*note. Most companies bereavement policy extends to time off for immediate family (generally 3 days) and grandparents (1 day).

Note also! Why did the op take a full day off for a funeral He could have asked the boss for half a day or even two hours off.

wmpdd3

This would be gross mis-conduct where I work too.

You could offer to swap shifts with someone int he company, but if this is refused and you didn't turn up it would be gross- misconduct, it would end up in dismissal except if you had years of un-blemmised service.

LegacyUser

Don't want to give away all the details but in short, i've been getting 'micro managed' for a while now, this is one of a long list of problems that should not be problems. Other employees have no problem receiving time off for funerals. I work in a very normal job where everyone else can do what i do, i don't have any special duties or tasks. The funeral was a bit away from where i live so two hours would not have been enough time. The place where i work is open 7 days a week, i offered to use annual leave, to come in another day to make up my time (even though i'm hourly wage, not annual salary), or to find someone who could swap with me. All of this was refused by my manager. The general consensus was on my previous thread was that i should take the day and deal with it when i returned, this is what i have done. I explained my distress and my decision making very precisely to my boss before i went, when i was back in work however i was told to go home (ironic), and they'd be in touch. I received the letter now to say i am dismissed.

I will check the appeals, many thanks

amdublin

advice pls wrote: »

The general consensus was on my previous thread was that i should take the day and deal with it when i returned, this is what i have done. I explained my distress and my decision making very precisely to my boss before i went, when i was back in work however i was told to go home (ironic), and they'd be in touch. I received the letter now to say i am dismissed.

I will check the appeals, many thanks

The general consensus on the other thread was
(a) you're not entitled to do it, don't do it
(b) do it, and deal with consequences after it, the consequences being that you could get fired.
Full stop.

Why would you base your decision on a freaking internet forum??!! Common sense should have told you when someone says no to a day off, that means you cannot take the day off.

Your distress does not matter. You were told no to the day off why did you take the day off.

As a matter of interest what is your company's Compassionate Leave policy?

Mrs OBumble

smokiebeverage wrote: »

This is a job not the army the OP is talking about so "insubordination, failing to follow orders" doesn't apply here. As an employer I would think not allowing an employee time off to go to a funeral is disgraceful, no one person is so important to an organization that they can't get a day off, if they are then there are serious issues within the organization.

I don't know what legal jargon is used in Ireland, but where I come from, the technical term for "failing to follow a reasonable request in the workplace" is called "insubordination", and is often a terminating offence.

We don't know the details of the OPs company, or his/her other employment history. But in general companies give leave for family deaths, not for friends. Very few contracts allow for funeral leave for friends.

kollegeknight

Op; Have you had written warnings before?

My fiance had problems with her previous work place. She was getting disciplined for things other people were allowed to do.

She received a final written warning without the company going through the proper procedures.

Irrespective to what you have in a contract, if it is unfair; it will be overturned by a judge.

If it were me; I would sit down and get clearly the order of things happened. Then I would go into my local citizens information. They have the data and acts relevant to you. They also have numbers of solicitors who focus on corporate law.


You have the right to a fair hearing and appeal. If you have a union you have to be allowed a representative.

Del2005

kollegeknight wrote: »

Op; Have you had written warnings before?

My fiance had problems with her previous work place. She was getting disciplined for things other people were allowed to do.

She received a final written warning without the company going through the proper procedures.

Irrespective to what you have in a contract, if it is unfair; it will be overturned by a judge.

If it were me; I would sit down and get clearly the order of things happened. Then I would go into my local citizens information. They have the data and acts relevant to you. They also have numbers of solicitors who focus on corporate law.


You have the right to a fair hearing and appeal. If you have a union you have to be allowed a representative.

You don't need a union to have your own person at a hearing or an appeal, any co worker or person you trust is allowed to attend with you.

OldmanMondeo

Milk & Honey wrote: »

Complain to the employment appeals tribunal for unfair dismissal.

If you are in no hurry to get it sorted, EAT can take up to 2 years, should you get a job then they will only make the employer pay the time you where unemployed, ie if OP gets a job tomorrow and was sacked 2 weeks ago, then the employer only pays him for those 2 weeks. OP, speak to a solicitor and tell them everything, only then will you know where you stand.

I was in similar situation to yourself, mine been different reasons to being fired. I spoke to a solicitor and took them to court, breach of contract was what we went for. It was resolved within 2 weeks. That been said, I was 100% honest with my legal team and I was not a trouble maker.

kollegeknight

[QUOTE= I was 100% honest with my legal team and I was not a trouble maker.[/QUOTE]

honestly and accuracy of accounts of events is very important. My fiance got a letter about events on a day that she was off work. And another about time she was using a phone on pool deck when her phone was broken. (took me forever to figure out why the dates were jumping out at me.)

If you are not honest or accurate with information; you will find it difficult to defend yourself.

a site that might help:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/dismissal/constructive_dismissal.html

kollegeknight

[QUOTE I was 100% honest with my legal team and I was not a trouble maker.[/QUOTE]

honestly and accuracy of accounts of events is very important. My fiance got a letter about events on a day that she was off work. And another about time she was using a phone on pool deck when her phone was broken. (took me forever to figure out why the dates were jumping out at me.)

If you are not honest or accurate with information; you will find it difficult to defend yourself.

a site that might help:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/dismissal/constructive_dismissal.html

ScouseMouse

JustMary wrote: »

I don't know what legal jargon is used in Ireland, but where I come from, the technical term for "failing to follow a reasonable request in the workplace" is called "insubordination", and is often a terminating offence.

We don't know the details of the OPs company, or his/her other employment history. But in general companies give leave for family deaths, not for friends. Very few contracts allow for funeral leave for friends.

Yep.

Gross misconduct.

You basically asked for something. Were told (for whatever reason) no.

You did it anyway against your bosses wishes.

In our contracts, that is a dismissalble offence.

You had an unauthorised absence. They know what it was, you cannot claim you were sick.

You could try an unfair dismissal but I dont think you will win.

This is my opinion.

kollegeknight

superscouse wrote: »

Yep.

Gross misconduct.

You basically asked for something. Were told (for whatever reason) no.

You did it anyway against your bosses wishes.


You had an unauthorised absence. They know what it was, you cannot claim you were sick.

But the OP states in post 14 that other members of staff are allowed to attend funerals. If this is the case, it is unfair treatment and if proved, op may win unfair dismissal.

Again I'll reference my fiances case: she was given a written warning for using a phone (she proved she didn't have one at the time, thank god for crappy iphone). She documented all times other members of staff were using the phone in plain sight of the manager that wrote the letter.

So she used grounds of unfair treatment also.

That being said; She got a job elsewhere so she didnt take them to court as there would be no money. We considered doing it for a verdict but decided against.

We had every one of our ducks in a row. It scared daylights out of head office.

OldmanMondeo

kollegeknight wrote: »

We considered doing it for a verdict but decided against.

It is as well you didn't go to court so, I only made a settlement, they did not admit they were wrong, I had enough of the stress it was putting both myself and my family under. I took the money and am trying to get on with my life.

Eoin

Del2005 wrote: »

You don't need a union to have your own person at a hearing or an appeal, any co worker or person you trust is allowed to attend with you.

The witness has to be agreeable to the company. Our place wouldn't allow an external witness for example.

kollegeknight

Eoin wrote: »

The witness has to be agreeable to the company. Our place wouldn't allow an external witness for example.

Either the witness has to be from your union or has to be from the industry but the company can refuse anyone not from inside the company; It is difficult to get someone when it is from your workplace. They can only take notes.