Split level period house, no attic-implications?

mariannewims

Hi all,

I am interested in a house similar to this one (though not this house, yikes!) http://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/13-monkstown-crescent-monkstown-dublin/1701784

However, one area of concern is that there is no attic.
Are there any problems associated with these kind of houses and not having an attic that I should bear in mind?
Aside from the obvious; no attic for storage or to convert for more living space.

The water tank is outside, on the flat roof at the back of the house in a protective box. Looks to be the same with the nextdoor neighbour. Could this be a problem?

Also, how does insulation work in houses like these?
I presume it lies between the ceiling and roof?

Any help or guidance would be much appreciated!
Mar.

Kosseegan

Valley roof =>leaks, Damp, Dry Rot.
basement floor below water table level => damp.
large windows.

Ray Palmer

^^it's true
but

If the house has been maintained over the years none of that should be a problem. You need to get a proper survey done and not just a valuation survey. Have a similar aged building and damp is not really a problem but I did replace the roof at one point.

These house have been standing for 200 years in most cases and are going to require more work than a new build. A lot of the work is not going to be something you could do yourself. A big problem is people often replaster them with modren material when you need a lime plaster so the walls can breath. It is actually an effective way to control moisture. Your heating bill will be high too. Unless you absolutely love it don't take the heart ache on.

awec

Am I missing something here?

650 grand for that house? What?!

robd

mariannewims wrote: »

Hi all,

I am interested in a house similar to this one (though not this house, yikes!) http://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/13-monkstown-crescent-monkstown-dublin/1701784

However, one area of concern is that there is no attic.
Are there any problems associated with these kind of houses and not having an attic that I should bear in mind?
Aside from the obvious; no attic for storage or to convert for more living space.

The water tank is outside, on the flat roof at the back of the house in a protective box. Looks to be the same with the nextdoor neighbour. Could this be a problem?

Also, how does insulation work in houses like these?
I presume it lies between the ceiling and roof?

Any help or guidance would be much appreciated!
Mar.

From experience you'd really need to get a detailed survey done of a house like this before buying. In fact, the older the house the more detailed the survey that needs to be done. So Victorian and Edwardian houses need an extensive survey.

By default houses of this type have Zero insulation between the ceiling and roof. Insulation is a modern invention. Any insulation would have to have been retro-fitted. You'd have to ascertain through a cert if there is any insulation or not. Otherwise you're relying on either hearsay of vendor or an engineer investigating.

Major problems with houses like this are damp (rising and through wall) and cold. They're not easy to insulate without ripping out and destroying internal walls and features such as the ornate coving they were built with. Houses like this need to be heated and allowed to breath. They cannot be sealed like a more modern house so heating costs are much much higher.

Done right they're a lovely house but they'll always cost more in these times of high energy prices.

snowey07

I live in a split level cottage and when i bought it there was no attic hatch.

However when i got a hatch put in so we could insulate above the living room there was loads of room , enough to get a office space / guest space up there when i have the money. So you might be surprised but then you cant tell until youve bought it

Have a look at the neighbours and see if anyone has a velux in the roof ?

Ray Palmer

robd wrote: »

They're not easy to insulate without ripping out and destroying internal walls and features such as the ornate coving they were built with. Houses like this need to be heated and allowed to breath.

You can now use external insulation which actually is great for such buildings. It is like putting a jumper on the whole building. It fixes and exterior appearance issues and protects the building. Once you use lime plaster inside the walls will dry out to the right level. Much easier to heat after that which is actually the main reason these building are cold. The lack of heating over the years is the problem becasue when they were originally built there would have been a fire on heating the house all winter.

Putting in a an inspection hatch into the roof is vital. If one doesn't exist you should say to the vendor that needs to be put in. Anybody buying the house should ask for the same.

OP You would want to make sure you have a lots of money for unforeseen problems becasue they do come up. Sewage pipe collapsed in my place, roof replaced, drains aren't right.

robd

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You can now use external insulation which actually is great for such buildings. It is like putting a jumper on the whole building. It fixes and exterior appearance issues and protects the building. Once you use lime plaster inside the walls will dry out to the right level. Much easier to heat after that which is actually the main reason these building are cold. The lack of heating over the years is the problem becasue when they were originally built there would have been a fire on heating the house all winter.

On that particular house, with rendered walls I guess you can use external insulation alright. I was more thinking the red brick ones, like a previous house I owned. They cannot be externally insulated without destroying the facade. Of course there are brick facade that can be glued onto the external insulation but this would look modern not edwardian etc. I don't think a council would allow this as to my knowledge most houses of older era have protected facades. Not all rendered houses can be insulated either, some might have ornate surrounds on the windows which would be destroyed by insulating externally. Of course this could be replicated on new facade, but is the average builder who does this work competent enough to do this. I have my doubts. Again not sure of council allows facades to be changed like this.

Ray Palmer

robd wrote: »

On that particular house, with rendered walls I guess you can use external insulation alright. I was more thinking the red brick ones, like a previous house I owned. They cannot be externally insulated without destroying the facade. Of course there are brick facade that can be glued onto the external insulation but this would look modern not edwardian etc. I don't think a council would allow this as to my knowledge most houses of older era have protected facades. Not all rendered houses can be insulated either, some might have ornate surrounds on the windows which would be destroyed by insulating externally. Of course this could be replicated on new facade, but is the average builder who does this work competent enough to do this. I have my doubts. Again not sure of council allows facades to be changed like this.

External insulation can match any facade these days. It can look exactley the same. It will look crsip and as such new but not modern. You can even get the brick facade to look like dirty brick if you want. Got this done on a georgian house and the only noticable difference is the thickness around the windows. It is veryu easy to atch the faade because all they doo is cut it out of foam and stick it on.

mariannewims

Thanks very much for your help guys, some really good advice there.

The roof on the house needs to be replaced in the next 5-10 years so I'm guessing there hasn't been insulation added in recent times. I don't even know if there's a crawl space, though there surely must be some access to the roof area from inside. It also needs re-wiring and new floors as the original boards are in a bad way so I'm not sure it's worth the hassle and expense now when I'm not entirely happy at there being no attic for storage and the tank being outside.

Another house in a more traditional layout (Victorian terrace, 2 up 2 down) that I had ruled out as too expensive has just become more realistically priced so I think for now I'll pursue that as a better option.

It's not like there's a shortage of old houses at reasonable prices needing doing up so I'm not going to rush into something I'm not totally happy with.

Robd-whatever I'll buy I will be getting a full structural survey done. How much can I expect to pay? I reckon about €400 but please set me straight if I'm way off!

Thanks again for all the input,
Mar.

Lantus

Old houses like these eat money. For every 10 issues you can see there will be loasds unseen that only a realy good survey or doing the actual work will uncover.

Flat roofs are not my favourite because no matter how good you build them the water will pool and over time work its way in.

Lack of insulation makes them energy hungry unless loads of remedial work like insulating and new windows are installed. expensive and needs to be done right.

electrics/plimbing etc almost always need to be stripped and re done.

Saying that it would be a great project and I'd love to have a crack at it if I had a spare 100k for the fit out to do it justice.

Ray Palmer

mariannewims wrote: »

I don't even know if there's a crawl space, though there surely must be some access to the roof area from inside. .

No there may very well be no way to access the roof space.
I would go for the more expensive survey to check foundations and everything. A lot of victorian houses don't have foundations at all they use a spread base. Georgian houses are actually generally better built houses in Ireland. If you really have your heart set on an old house read up on the construction used to make them or books on restoring them.

JuliusCaesar

Ray Palmer wrote: »

External insulation can match any facade these days. It can look exactley the same. It will look crsip and as such new but not modern. You can even get the brick facade to look like dirty brick if you want. Got this done on a georgian house and the only noticable difference is the thickness around the windows. It is veryu easy to atch the faade because all they doo is cut it out of foam and stick it on.

That may well be the case, but if the house is listed, then you won't be allowed do this.

As regards roof insulation, I was talking with an elderly person who owns a similar house recently and he said that they had had insulation put in, in the 1970s - they made a hole in the ceiling, put the insulation down, and closed it up again. Wouldn't be the same amount as is now laid down.

Here's the listing of 'listed' houses for Dublin City Council area.

Ray Palmer

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

That may well be the case, but if the house is listed, then you won't be allowed do this.

There really aren't that many listed building and I think the OP would have mentioned it at this point. Agreed you probably couldn't do it on a listed building but then again you can't do much on a listed building easily.

subway

soemthing to think about also, a lot of houses of this type would have been in disrepair up until the 90s. they were expensive to run and even more expensive to bring up to standard so were left as they were.

when the banks started lending in the 90s you could buy something like this safe in the knowledge that the value would go up in a few days so, if for example, you found you needed 10k for drains you could refinance with the bank without issue. i know people who bought serious ****holes and just kept upping the mortgage to get it how they wanted, some jumped shipped when they realised the mortgage was way too much, others didnt and it hasnt ended well.

as this kind of lending isnt happening again any time soon, you would need to be in a postion of strong cash reserves if you want to get it to the standard of many of the really nice ones.

if you dont, you will be in neg equity fairly quickly and unable to borrow for repairs and so on.

i dont know your circumstances and am not asking you to post them, just food for thought.

JuliusCaesar

mariannewims wrote: »

The water tank is outside, on the flat roof at the back of the house in a protective box. Looks to be the same with the nextdoor neighbour. Could this be a problem?

You'd think so, wouldn't you, given the freezing winters we've had. But a pal has an outside water tank and never had any problems even in the big freeze.