Verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity?

needsomehelp14

Just read this http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/health/mental_health/criminal_insanity_and_mental_health.html

Criminal insanity and mental health

• Information

Information

People in Ireland who are charged with a criminal offence and who are suffering from a mental disorder are dealt with under the Criminal Law (Insanity) Act 2006 (pdf). This law came into effect on 1 June 2006.
The question of the mental state of someone in Ireland charged with a crime may arise at two different stages - at the start of the trial and at the decision on guilt. If a person is suffering from a mental disorder, they may be considered unfit to be tried at the start of the trial. In that case, no trial goes ahead. If a trial is held and the person is considered to have actually committed the offence but was insane at the time, it is possible for a verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity to be reached. In murder cases, the concept of diminished responsibility may be used to substitute a verdict of manslaughter.
A mental disorder in Irish law is defined as including mental illness, mental disability, dementia or any disease of the mind but does not include intoxication (drunkenness).

Fit or unfit to be tried


The decision on whether or not a person is fit to be tried is made by a judge. If the person cannot understand the charge or is unable to instruct a legal team, challenge jurors or follow the evidence, then they may be considered unfit to be tried.
This finding, (that is that someone is considered unfit to be tried) is not a decision on the alleged criminal activity. If someone is found to be unfit to be tried, then the trial is postponed. The judge then decides what happens next. For example, the person may be committed to a psychiatric hospital or unit if they are considered to be suffering from a mental disorder and are in need of in-patient treatment under the terms of the Mental Health Act, 2001. Alternatively, the person may be sent for out-patient psychiatric care. The person may be committed to a psychiatric hospital or unit for 14 days in order to establish whether or not they should be sent for treatment. The person may appeal against a committal order.
If the judge considers that there is a reasonable doubt that the person committed the alleged crime, the person may be acquitted. The Director of Public Prosecutions may appeal against a decision that a person is unfit to be tried.

Not guilty by reason of insanity


If someone is considered to have actually committed the offence but was insane at the time, the verdict may be not guilty by reason of insanity. This decision is made by a jury. If this verdict is reached, the judge may order that the person be committed to a psychiatric hospital or unit in broadly the same way as applies in the case of being unfit to be tried.
Diminished responsibility in murder cases


If someone is charged with murder, the verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity is one possible verdict. The Criminal Law (Insanity) Act 2006 provides for the concept of diminished responsibility in murder cases. A conviction for murder in Ireland brings an automatic life sentence. In other crimes, the judge has discretion in relation to sentencing and so can take into account any diminished responsibility which may exist. If someone charged with murder successfully pleads diminished responsibility, then the verdict is manslaughter. The judge can then sentence the person to any length of time in prison.

Mental Health Review Board

The Mental Health (Criminal Law) Review Board's main function is to review the detention of those found not guilty by reason of insanity or unfit to be tried, who have been detained in a designated centre by order of a court. The Review Board also has responsibility for people who have been convicted of offences and who become mentally ill while serving their sentences. The Review Board must have regard to the welfare and safety of the person whose detention it reviews and to the public interest. It may assign a legal representative to the person unless the person proposes to engage one.
The Board is composed of a legal chairperson and a number of other people, at least one of whom must be a consultant psychiatrist. It is obliged to review each detention at least once every six months.

The one question I have is how does someone qualify for receiving a verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity-for example lets hypothetically say the offender suffers from schizophrenia. What does the offender need as proof of insanity-doctors reports or medication for taking for mental illness?

NoQuarter

Criminal Law (Insanity) Act 2006:

the jury finds that the accused person committed the act alleged against him or her and, having heard evidence
relating to the mental condition of the accused given by a consultant
psychiatrist, finds that:


(a) the accused person was suffering at the time from a mental
disorder, and
(b) the mental disorder was such that the accused person
ought not to be held responsible for the act alleged by
reason of the fact that he or she—
(i) did not know the nature and quality of the act, or
(ii) did not know that what he or she was doing was
wrong, or
(iii) was unable to refrain from committing the act,

the court or the jury, as the case may be, shall return a special verdict
to the effect that the accused person is not guilty by reason of
insanity.

So basically its on a consultants evidence.

needsomehelp14

When you say consultant is that some independent doctor appointed by the judge at the time or the ill persons usual doctor or gp?

NoQuarter

No its a "consultant psychiatrist" meaning a specialist and not just a GP. Not sure if there are any in Ireland, there may be, google might find some. If not, they will get one in from England.

The judge wont appoint one, the accused's defence team will get one.

needsomehelp14

But who gives the accused medical details to the consultant psychiatrist?

How does the consultant psychiatrist make a report-is it just the medical history of the accused-for example their dignosis of schizophrenia, their hospital stays and the medication they must take?

NoQuarter

The defence team would supply the consultant with the past medical records. Also, the consultant would meet with and examine the accused themselves and determine the matter independently.

needsomehelp14

Ok but how realiable is the external consultant?

Lets say the offender is certified to be sick from schizophrenia. What im trying to say is will the offender actually receive a fair trial this way? I mean how does the consultant decide on whether or not the offender was insane a the time?

NoQuarter

needsomehelp14 wrote: »

Ok but how realiable is the external consultant?

Lets say the offender is certified to be sick from schizophrenia. What im trying to say is will the offender actually receive a fair trial this way? I mean how does the consultant decide on whether or not the offender was insane a the time?

The standard to prove not guilty by reason of insanity is on the balance of probabilities unlike most criminal trials which elements need to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

So if the accused is charged with a crime, raising insanity is essentially saying "i did it" but "i was insane at the time". Then it is up to the defence team to prove on the balance of probability that the accused was insane at the time. The consultant is an expert in his field so it is as reliable as we could hope for but the balance of probabilities is 51% so once it is likely, that is enough.

If an accused is a certifies schizophrenic, it would sound likely to me that they would be successful in raising the defence.

Victor

NoQuarter wrote: »

If an accused is a certifies schizophrenic, it would sound likely to me that they would be successful in raising the defence.

I think it will depend on the facts of the situation. Someone may be suffering from mental illness and depending on the circumstances be judged sane, temporarily insane or insane depending on the severity of the condition and the nature of the offence. Separately judge or jury may consider some form of diminished responsibility, relating to provocation or some such. There will then be further situations like automatism.

needsomehelp14

Victor wrote: »

I think it will depend on the facts of the situation. Someone may be suffering from mental illness and depending on the circumstances be judged sane, temporarily insane or insane depending on the severity of the condition and the nature of the offence. Separately judge or jury may consider some form of diminished responsibility, relating to provocation or some such. There will then be further situations like automatism.

With all due respect how can someone suffering with severe schizophrenia be judged as 'sane'? I mean that schizophrenia is a serious psychotic disorder.

I dont soppose there's somewhere online where i can read about real life legal cases in ireland which involve 'verdicts of not guilty by reason of insanity'?

NoQuarter

needsomehelp14 wrote: »

With all due respect how can someone suffering with severe schizophrenia be judged as 'sane'? I mean that schizophrenia is a serious psychotic disorder.

I dont soppose there's somewhere online where i can read about real life legal cases in ireland which involve 'verdicts of not guilty by reason of insanity'?

Just google it, I just did and got a few answers. Note the year and the names, go to www.courts.ie and search for the year and names if the news report is not enough and you will be able to read the whole case.

heres the first one: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhsnqlgbeycw/

Milk & Honey

needsomehelp14 wrote: »

With all due respect how can someone suffering with severe schizophrenia be judged as 'sane'? I mean that schizophrenia is a serious psychotic disorder.

I dont soppose there's somewhere online where i can read about real life legal cases in ireland which involve 'verdicts of not guilty by reason of insanity'?

Legal insanity is different from clinical insanity.
To be legally insane, the person cannot appreciate the nature and quality of their action, or if they did, they did not know it was wrong.

Victor

needsomehelp14 wrote: »

With all due respect how can someone suffering with severe schizophrenia be judged as 'sane'? I mean that schizophrenia is a serious psychotic disorder.

I did mention severity as one of the factors to take into account. What of someone with milder schizophrenia on antipsychotics?

Piriz

Hi i worked in a forensic mental hospital in the states... people are evaluated by a forensic evaluator; psychiatrists and clinical psychologists, pleas of not criminally responsible are entered when the person is competent to stand trial.. a person found not criminally responsible for a serious crime will undergo hospital treatment in a forensic facility for potentially a long time until they are deemed safe to themselves and society, following that they will be conditionally released often into a group home with medication compliance as a major condition..they will be closely monitored for typically 5 years..possibly more depending...

irishh_bob

Piriz wrote: »

Hi i worked in a forensic mental hospital in the states... people are evaluated by a forensic evaluator; psychiatrists and clinical psychologists, pleas of not criminally responsible are entered when the person is competent to stand trial.. a person found not criminally responsible for a serious crime will undergo hospital treatment in a forensic facility for potentially a long time until they are deemed safe to themselves and society, following that they will be conditionally released often into a group home with medication compliance as a major condition..they will be closely monitored for typically 5 years..possibly more depending...

that used to happen here but the liberals took control and now we have a situation where those who are not the full schilling but end up commiting a crime , find themselves in prison but as long as the psychiatric community are not the ones removing a persons freedom , they are satisfied to continue pay lip service to the ideal that locking people up is wrong , they,ve baschically opted out of the descision making process and adopted a possition of beard stroking

needsomehelp14

irishh_bob wrote: »

that used to happen here but the liberals took control and now we have a situation where those who are not the full schilling but end up commiting a crime , find themselves in prison but as long as the psychiatric community are not the ones removing a persons freedom , they are satisfied to continue pay lip service to the ideal that locking people up is wrong , they,ve baschically opted out of the descision making process and adopted a possition of beard stroking

Where is the evidence for this? Are the criminally insane going to prison more so that to a hospital setting?

irishh_bob

needsomehelp14 wrote: »

Where is the evidence for this? Are the criminally insane going to prison more so that to a hospital setting?

people who commit very serious crimes like murder are often found guilty but insane and sent to the central mental hospital in dundrum , im talking about people who are not the full schilling , get themselves into trouble for lesser offenses but end up doing time in prison because thier familys are unable to get them sectioned into a psychiatric unit , surely you are aware how difficult it is to get someone sectioned nowadays

needsomehelp14

irishh_bob wrote: »

people who commit very serious crimes like murder are often found guilty but insane and sent to the central mental hospital in dundrum , im talking about people who are not the full schilling , get themselves into trouble for lesser offenses but end up doing time in prison because thier familys are unable to get them sectioned into a psychiatric unit , surely you are aware how difficult it is to get someone sectioned nowadays

Actually i dont know..to think that people who are less ill are sent to prison instead of a hospital is terrible. Is it due to a lack of spaces in hospitals?

Do you know of any cases that happened that show this is the case? is this what commonly happened in less serious offences?

irishh_bob

needsomehelp14 wrote: »

Actually i dont know..to think that people who are less ill are sent to prison instead of a hospital is terrible. Is it due to a lack of spaces in hospitals?

Do you know of any cases that happened that show this is the case? is this what commonly happened in less serious offences?

happened to a cousin of mine , no its not due to a lack of space in hospital , its due to idealogy , the people who run mental health nowadays are vehemently opposed to the idea of placing people in mental hospitals - institutions against thier will , , unfortunatley in real life, some people are just not right and not only can they not handle the real world , thier own familys cannot take care of them , the liberals who dictate policy like to present an illusion of being so concerned with the mentally unwell persons wellfare that they wouldnt dare strip them of thier liberty but when they sit back and do nothing , the ill person often ends up in trouble , beit homeless or in a criminal court , mental health in ireland is one big pc spun lie , unfortunatley our liberal media is completley on board with this line of thinking , you will never ever see a report on rte which features a family who are desperete to get a loved one institutionalised , all the reports are exclusivley about how mental institutions need to be closed down and all the patients let out

Victor

irishh_bob wrote: »

happened to a cousin of mine , no its not due to a lack of space in hospital , its due to idealogy , the people who run mental health nowadays are vehemently opposed to the idea of placing people in mental hospitals - institutions against thier will

Institutionalising people is both expensive and detrimental to the patient.

irishh_bob

Victor wrote: »

Institutionalising people is both expensive and detrimental to the patient.

1 . ending up in prison or homeless is worse

2. who says its detrimental to the patient ? , thats a 2011 opinion which is based on group think and driven by idealogy

RandolphEsq

Victor wrote: »

Institutionalising people is both expensive and detrimental to the patient.

It's expensive but these people are not right in the head and should be taken out of normal society until they are able to function sanely in that society.

Victor

RandolphEsq wrote: »

It's expensive but these people are not right in the head and should be taken out of normal society until they are able to function sanely in that society.

But what portion of people with mental health difficulties should be detained?

If we have €X and Y number of people needing help, we can either spend that money on detaining a high percentage of them and leaving the rest untreated OR detaining a low percentage of them and treating the rest.

Resources needed to detain ten (cooperative) patients for one week as in-patients:

• 10 x Suitable private (bedroom) and shared accommodation (living room, kitchen, etc.), laundry, etc.
• Suitable, offices, waiting rooms, group therapy rooms, etc.
• 10 x Food and personal necessities
• 20 nursing / orderly staff (one 168 hour week needs five staff to cover 39 hour weeks)
• 10X hours of psyciatrist's time
• 10Y hours of occupational therapist's time
• 10Z Supervisory and ancillary staff
• 10 x Medication

Resources needed to have ten people for one week as day-patients:

• Suitable, offices, waiting rooms, group therapy rooms, etc.
• 5 nursing staff
• 10X/2 hours of psyciatrist's time
• 10Y hours of occupational therapist's time
• 10Z/2 Supervisory and ancillary staff
• 10 x Medication

Resources needed to have ten people for one week as out-patients:

• Suitable, offices, waiting rooms, group therapy rooms, etc.
• 1 nursing staff
• 10X/4 hours of psyciatrist's time
• 10Z/4 Supervisory and ancillary staff
• 10 x Medication

It probably costs €3,000 per week to keep someone as a patient in a hospital comapred to under €100 for an out-patient seeing a psychitrist weekly.

irishh_bob

RandolphEsq wrote: »

It's expensive but these people are not right in the head and should be taken out of normal society until they are able to function sanely in that society.

before the standard liberal charge ( of wanting to lock up mary from mullingar who is suffering from post natal depression or mick from longford who lost his job on the buildings and is depressed because he cant make his mortgage ) arrives , im refering to a small minority of people with severe conditions which makes thier behaviour anti social in the extreme , makes thier immiediet familys life hell and causes stress to thier neighbours

irishh_bob

Victor wrote: »

But what portion of people with mental health difficulties should be detained?

If we have €X and Y number of people needing help, we can either spend that money on detaining a high percentage of them and leaving the rest untreated OR detaining a low percentage of them and treating the rest.


Resources needed to detain ten (cooperative) patients for one week as in-patients:

• 10 x Suitable private (bedroom) and shared accommodation (living room, kitchen, etc.), laundry, etc.
• Suitable, offices, waiting rooms, group therapy rooms, etc.
• 10 x Food and personal necessities
• 20 nursing / orderly staff (one 168 hour week needs five staff to cover 39 hour weeks)
• 10X hours of psyciatrist's time
• 10Y hours of occupational therapist's time
• 10Z Supervisory and ancillary staff
• 10 x Medication

Resources needed to have ten people for one week as day-patients:

• Suitable, offices, waiting rooms, group therapy rooms, etc.
• 5 nursing staff
• 10X/2 hours of psyciatrist's time
• 10Y hours of occupational therapist's time
• 10Z/2 Supervisory and ancillary staff
• 10 x Medication

Resources needed to have ten people for one week as out-patients:

• Suitable, offices, waiting rooms, group therapy rooms, etc.
• 1 nursing staff
• 10X/4 hours of psyciatrist's time
• 10Z/4 Supervisory and ancillary staff
• 10 x Medication

It probably costs €3,000 per week to keep someone as a patient in a hospital comapred to under €100 for an out-patient seeing a psychitrist weekly.

an outpaitent service might be sufficent for the people ive highlighted in the post above ( unemployed and broke ) but its damn all use to someone who thinks thier elderly neighbour is lucifer and that jesus is arriving on the next bus from cork , despite what the pc liberals might have us believe , the world cannot be made perfect , some people are just not right and cannot cope with the real world