Richie Gray to Sale

GerM

Dang. He'd have been the absolute ideal no. 4 for Leinster replacing Leo. I genuinely think we should have fronted up the cash and played him alongside Toner. 2 or 3 of our NIQ players are basically filler. White and Berquist are no more than squad players. Strauss becomes Irish next season. That leaves Sykes, Nacewa and VDM. VDM's contract is up this year too.

From today's Irish Times:

"Meanwhile Outstanding Scottish secondrow Richie Gray has agreed to join Sale in June of next year."

vinny chase

GerM wrote: »

Dang. He'd have been the absolute ideal no. 4 for Leinster replacing Leo. I genuinely think we should have fronted up the cash and played him alongside Toner. 2 or 3 of our NIQ players are basically filler. White and Berquist are no more than squad players. Strauss becomes Irish next season. That leaves Sykes, Nacewa and VDM. VDM's contract is up this year too.

From today's Irish Times:

"Meanwhile Outstanding Scottish secondrow Richie Gray has agreed to join Sale in June of next year."

Full agreement.

Would love to know what happened here; did they not have the money to go for it, did it catch them unawares, would the IRFU make difficulties, or do they have absolutely huge faith in guys like Mark Flanagan, Devin, etc? Because stuff like Route 66 etc wouldn't imply that the underage and academy figures have a huge amount of faith in the calibre of second rows coming through.

He'd have been an absolutely fantastic signing if they'd gotten him. Cannot understand why though he would have wanted to go there.

GerM

vinny chase wrote: »

Full agreement.

Would love to know what happened here; did they not have the money to go for it, did it catch them unawares, would the IRFU make difficulties, or do they have absolutely huge faith in guys like Mark Flanagan, Devin, etc? Because stuff like Route 66 etc wouldn't imply that the underage and academy figures have a huge amount of faith in the calibre of second rows coming through.

He'd have been an absolutely fantastic signing if they'd gotten him. Cannot understand why though he would have wanted to go there.

The BBC correspondent reports that the other clubs in for him were Bath and Sarries so it certainly wasn't a secret that he was available. No mention of a province being involved. Perhaps he didn't want to move too far away from home. He can get from Sale to Galsgow in about 4 hours on the road.

I don't think the PAG would have had any issue either given the number of locks coming through down south along with Toner and Tuohy. We have more than adequate cover in the position for the foreseeable future. I can only assume that it was a case of we've signed Sykes and we're sticking with him now. Still disappointing though. Sale do have Richie Vernon and Dickinson on their books though who are both Scottish internationals. Vernon in particular would probably be tight enough with Gray given they're both Glasgow lads that came through at the same time.

Sale...

utter disbelief

JustinDee

GerM wrote: »

Dang. He'd have been the absolute ideal no. 4 for Leinster replacing Leo. I genuinely think we should have fronted up the cash and played him alongside Toner. 2 or 3 of our NIQ players are basically filler. White and Berquist are no more than squad players. Strauss becomes Irish next season. That leaves Sykes, Nacewa and VDM. VDM's contract is up this year too.

From today's Irish Times:

"Meanwhile Outstanding Scottish secondrow Richie Gray has agreed to join Sale in June of next year."

Lock is one of the key positions in the national team that will requires developed players given the ages of the two O's.
Pointless to sign a foreign player there.

[Jackass]

This thread makes me sad for several reasons.

CIARAN_BOYLE

JustinDee wrote: »

Lock is one of the key positions in the national team that will requires developed players given the ages of the two O's.
Pointless to sign a foreign player there.

Even worse when you consider that three locks one of whom went to the WC and two who featured in the warm ups, Leo Cullen, Mick O'Driscoll, and Mike McCarthy all over 30.

durkadurka

[Jackass] wrote: »

This thread makes me sad for several reasons.

Is yet another nail in the coffin of Scottish Rugby one of them?

GerM

JustinDee wrote: »

Lock is one of the key positions in the national team that will requires developed players given the ages of the two O's.
Pointless to sign a foreign player there.

Understand your point but the only player at Leinster that Gray would keep out would be Sykes and Browne (assuming he would replace Cullen). One is never going to play for Ireland and the other won't be able to play for Ireland until he's 30 and, at the moment, it's unclear as to whether that will ever happen. We currently have Ryan (28), McCarthy (29), Tuohy (26) and Toner (25) all of who have international experience and the youngest two are still improving. Those are the guys that are likely to move into the Irish jersey and none of them would be impeded by Gray's arrival. That's before the likes of Nagle or Foley come into the equation. I think Toner would have learned hugely from playing alongside Gray especially in terms of how someone that is 6'9" or taller can use their size. Leinster have no young locks coming through. Signing Gray for two or three seasons wouldn't have blocked anyone's progress and, if it came to the end of his contract and there was a decent player coming through, then cheerio. Unfortunately, with Sykes on the books, it was never even really up for discussion I suspect.

justsomebloke

JustinDee wrote: »

Pointless to sign a foreign player there.

Not really especially if it is the difference between winning and losing matches. We just don't have the strength in depth in the position which was highlighted by the route 6'6'' drive. So if we have to take on a NIQ second row to help while we can bring someone through then so be it.

vinny chase

Bringing in overseas imports anyway isn't always the terrible thing some people seem to think it is; especially if you're bringing in top quality players like Rocky Elsom ,Doug Howlett and Felipe.

It's got to be great as a young player to get the opportunity to work with, observe and learn from these kinds of players, plus I'm all for bringing in some foreign coaches and players at times just to sometimes bring a possible new dimension or approach to the game to Irish rugby. (not exactly applicable to Gray, but certainly the case in the past with other imports).

Hype710

Dismayed as to why he'd go to Sale as he'd walk into nearly all European sides. Maybe there's personal aspects involved.

JustinDee

GerM wrote: »

Understand your point but the only player at Leinster that Gray would keep out would be Sykes and Browne (assuming he would replace Cullen). One is never going to play for Ireland and the other won't be able to play for Ireland until he's 30 and, at the moment, it's unclear as to whether that will ever happen. We currently have Ryan (28), McCarthy (29), Tuohy (26) and Toner (25) all of who have international experience and the youngest two are still improving. Those are the guys that are likely to move into the Irish jersey and none of them would be impeded by Gray's arrival. That's before the likes of Nagle or Foley come into the equation. I think Toner would have learned hugely from playing alongside Gray especially in terms of how someone that is 6'9" or taller can use their size. Leinster have no young locks coming through. Signing Gray for two or three seasons wouldn't have blocked anyone's progress and, if it came to the end of his contract and there was a decent player coming through, then cheerio. Unfortunately, with Sykes on the books, it was never even really up for discussion I suspect.

Sorry but as far as national playerbase is concerned, Irish-qualified would take precedence over an overseas player.
No point in deliberately limiting the options. Depth of squad is paramount.

This is my own view on the matter, of course.

GerM

Hype710 wrote: »

Dismayed as to why he'd go to Sale as he'd walk into nearly all European sides. Maybe there's personal aspects involved.

They're an improving side. They're supposedly signing another world class forward that will be announced for next season. His mate from Glasgow academy Richie Vernon is there. Aside from Newcastle, it's the only other team in the Premiership that's only a few hours drive from his home. I'm also sure the money was right!

Flashdean

Sale are definetly an emerging side with great prospects, Imiolek,Gaskell,Vernon,Burrell,Tuculet and now Gray...Foundations are there to build and they surely have an exciting future

pajunior

Gray is an exceptional player who is going to dominate the Lock position in Europe for years. Little surprised that he went for Sale though I was under the impression that Sale are struggling big time financially. I would have thought a French team or possibly Leicester (who could do with Gray) would have plucked him up for loads of money. But like people have said maybe he wants to be close to home, we often forget that these pros are human beings as well.

Flashdean

Flashdean wrote: »

Sale are definetly an emerging side with great prospects, Imiolek,Gaskell,Vernon,Burrell,Tuculet and now Gray...Foundations are there to build and they surely have an exciting future

and Buckley!

Flashdean

pajunior wrote: »

Gray is an exceptional player who is going to dominate the Lock position in Europe for years. Little surprised that he went for Sale though I was under the impression that Sale are struggling big time financially. I would have thought a French team or possibly Leicester (who could do with Gray) would have plucked him up for loads of money. But like people have said maybe he wants to be close to home, we often forget that these pros are human beings as well.

Gray is a player we far from need we've already got Deacon,Parling,Sivington and a huge prospect in Graham Kitchener and then a few fringe players in Green,Slater and Mafi.. We could of done with Richie Vernon who also joined Sale

pajunior

Flashdean wrote: »

Gray is a player we far from need we've already got Deacon,Parling,Sivington and a huge prospect in Graham Kitchener and then a few fringe players in Green,Slater and Mafi.. We could of done with Richie Vernon who also joined Sale

I'm afraid I don't rate Leicester's locks as highly as you do, apart from Kitchener but at the moment he's mostly potential.

wixfjord

Flashdean wrote: »

Gray is a player we far from need we've already got Deacon,Parling,Sivington and a huge prospect in Graham Kitchener and then a few fringe players in Green,Slater and Mafi.. We could of done with Richie Vernon who also joined Sale

I think that by naming those players, you're making his point for him!
All either poor Aviva standard, England donkeys or young guys who could be good.
Gray would tear up trees for Leicester.

Flashdean

wixfjord wrote: »

I think that by naming those players, you're making his point for him!
All either poor Aviva standard, England donkeys or young guys who could be good.
Gray would tear up trees for Leicester.

Gray is a young guy who could be good so why would we need another!! And what do you mean aviva standard?? England donkeys is ur opinion mate!!

wixfjord

Flashdean wrote: »

Gray is a young guy who could be good so why would we need another!! And what do you mean aviva standard?? England donkeys is ur opinion mate!!

Not sure whether you've ever seen him play, but Gray blows all of them out of the water. He's a pure physical specimen. Him and Kitchener would be a great lock pairing. Louis Deacon is your current star lock, and he's a worse version of DOC.

sock puppet

wixfjord wrote: »

I think that by naming those players, you're making his point for him!
All either poor Aviva standard, England donkeys or young guys who could be good.
Gray would tear up trees for Leicester.

On the other hand he'd be missing a good chunk of the season and since they already spend to the salary cap they'd have to let someone go (maybe even 2 players depending on how big his salary is) to bring him in.

GerM

wixfjord wrote: »

Not sure whether you've ever seen him play, but Gray blows all of them out of the water. He's a pure physical specimen. Him and Kitchener would be a great lock pairing. Louis Deacon is your current star lock, and he's a worse version of DOC.

Think Deacon is way better. Safe as houses at the nuts and bolts. Restarts, line outs, tackling. DOC hits rucks and tackles averagely these days. Gray is far superior to any lock in the Premiership though and Leicester would be lucky to have him as would any side. Lawes is the only one who can play to that level but he ruins it with his discipline. Gray is on the way to being the best lock in the world for me. I'd already have him in the top few based on the past year. There's a distinct lack of stand out locks anymore with Matfield gone and POC probably only 80% of the way back to his best. Gray is exceptional.

desertcircus

Flashdean wrote: »

Gray is a young guy who could be good so why would we need another!! And what do you mean aviva standard?? England donkeys is ur opinion mate!!

Gray's already good. In fact, he's already monstrous. He's a 22-year-old lock with sixteen full international caps, and he's as close to nailed on for a starting Lions spot as it's possible to be two years in advance. He's far, far beyond the other players named. At the moment, he's far beyond almost any other lock still playing international rugby.

desertcircus

As to why he's heading to Sale - it may be the case that he's decided this represents his best chance of getting a winner's medal of some kind out if his career. Barring a truly unbelievable turnaround in Scottish rugby (and I do mean unbelievable; they're currently fifth best of six with a new Italian coach raising havoc with Aironi and Treviso), Gray will never win a Triple Crown or a Grand Slam, and will never win a Pro12 title or Heineken Cup with Glasgow. Sale are in a decent position and if they're really going to be making another huge signing for next year, they should have a good shot at the playoffs in the Premiership.

Podge_irl

JustinDee wrote: »

Sorry but as far as national playerbase is concerned, Irish-qualified would take precedence over an overseas player.
No point in deliberately limiting the options. Depth of squad is paramount

I agree to a point. Not much use if the Irish players in question aren't much good though. Browne will never be of any use to Ireland for example.

PhatPiggins

Flashdean wrote: »

Gray is a young guy who could be good so why would we need another!! And what do you mean aviva standard?? England donkeys is ur opinion mate!!

Very true. Not often you see the donkeys riding the jockey but thats whats happened everytime England have played Scotland.

The man love for Gray on here is embarrassing at times.

PhatPiggins

desertcircus wrote: »

As to why he's heading to Sale - it may be the case that he's decided this represents his best chance of getting a winner's medal of some kind out if his career. Barring a truly unbelievable turnaround in Scottish rugby (and I do mean unbelievable; they're currently fifth best of six with a new Italian coach raising havoc with Aironi and Treviso), Gray will never win a Triple Crown or a Grand Slam, and will never win a Pro12 title or Heineken Cup with Glasgow. Sale are in a decent position and if they're really going to be making another huge signing for next year, they should have a good shot at the playoffs in the Premiership.

Yes I'm sure every Scottish lad dreams of one day winning the Amlin Cup. He turned down Sarries and a couple of the better French teams. He clearly went to Sale for the money.

durkadurka

Couldn't the French teams match Sales money?

CIARAN_BOYLE

durkadurka wrote: »

Couldn't the French teams match Sales money?

I think is a matter of good money and staying close to home

CatFromHue

They're his boyhood team. It's been a dream of his to play for them!










Makes as much sense as anything else!

desertcircus

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Yes I'm sure every Scottish lad dreams of one day winning the Amlin Cup. He turned down Sarries and a couple of the better French teams. He clearly went to Sale for the money.

If it was for the money, he'd have taken a French offer in a heartbeat. Sale is reasonably close to home and a much better chance of silverware - even if it is the Amlin Cup, it's more than he's got a shot at in Glasgow, and a Scottish rugby player can't afford to be picky about medals. How many of the current squad, Nathan Hines apart, have actually got a winner's medal of any kind in professional rugby? The French salary cap is close to double the English, and there are rumours that overseas signings are paid far more than what's declared. He'd easily beat Sale's offer on the other side of the Channel.

PhatPiggins

desertcircus wrote: »

If it was for the money, he'd have taken a French offer in a heartbeat. Sale is reasonably close to home and a much better chance of silverware - even if it is the Amlin Cup, it's more than he's got a shot at in Glasgow, and a Scottish rugby player can't afford to be picky about medals. How many of the current squad, Nathan Hines apart, have actually got a winner's medal of any kind in professional rugby? The French salary cap is close to double the English, and there are rumours that overseas signings are paid far more than what's declared. He'd easily beat Sale's offer on the other side of the Channel.

Do you find straws difficult to clutch? Thats a load of codswallop if ever I read it. I like the way you've added in the close to home part to justify the original nonsense. Glasgow made the play off two seasons ago when did Sale last achieve anything? They both have the same chance of winning the Amlin.

If he was actually bothered about winning things then he would have gone to a ready made team of winners like Sarries. Tony Buckley went there because of the fine cuisine and golden sand beaches I suppose.

profitius

Its another blow to Scottish rugby.

Should the Scots go done the Irish route and gamble on bringing all their players home or just wait and hope that the games grows quickly.

desertcircus

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Do you find straws difficult to clutch? Thats a load of codswallop if ever I read it. I like the way you've added in the close to home part to justify the original nonsense. Glasgow made the play off two seasons ago when did Sale last achieve anything? They both have the same chance of winning the Amlin.

If he was actually bothered about winning things then he would have gone to a ready made team of winners like Sarries. Tony Buckley went there because of the fine cuisine and golden sand beaches I suppose.

Charming. And he decided not to play for twice the money in the sunshine of the south of France why, exactly?

bamboozle

durkadurka wrote: »

Couldn't the French teams match Sales money?

i can only think he didnt want to go to france as surely he'd double his money by going over there.

Sale is a very suprising destination, suprised he didnt wait till later in season, see which teams will at least by playing HC the following season then make a decision.

GerM

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Do you find straws difficult to clutch? Thats a load of codswallop if ever I read it. I like the way you've added in the close to home part to justify the original nonsense. Glasgow made the play off two seasons ago when did Sale last achieve anything? They both have the same chance of winning the Amlin.

I'm sure Sale offered him a lot of cash but it's not everything. Gray's only a kid and it's possible that he might not have wanted to stray too far to France or doesn't fancy London. Whatever Sale are paying him, I'm sure other teams were able to match it given the cap in France is far higher. Sale are building a good side this year after the mess that Brewer left them in. They've started well enough despite suffering from injuries. Made some good signings after the exodus like Vernon, Dickinson and Fourie. Believe it or not, Tuitupou is playing some really good stuff and has been made captain for the season. I would say their aim is to get into the HEC for next season and go from there. Their management have indicated that they intend to make another big name signing. Another one or two solid team players and they've a HEC side again I reckon.

vinny chase

desertcircus wrote: »

Charming. And he decided not to play for twice the money in the sunshine of the south of France why, exactly?

Anyone from Glasgow wouldn't know what to do with themselves in the sunshine in the South of France!

He wants the gloom of the Greater Manchester Area because it'll remind him most of home!

justsomebloke

The one thing I would note is how early in the season this came about. This may be a sign from Sale to say they are serious about their competing for hours and Gray may have been given assurances that other players to help challenge maybe enroute. Getting Gray's signature then helps Sale sign other players who may have be reluctant to join with no one else there.

Other then that he may just be a Man U fan.

vinny chase

vinny chase wrote: »

He wants the gloom of the Greater Manchester Area because it'll remind him most of home!

Lovely area really....

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Location) :pac:

cp

Sale are/were owned by Scottish businessman Brian Kennedy, as far as I know he has previously tried to get involved in funding the pro game in Scotland, with Edinburgh I think? Only to be blocked by Gordon McKie and the SRU..

Its possible that his link with Scottish rugby might have played a part in Grays decision? Pure speculation of course..