14 Gardai on duty during Halloween

Turner

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/just-14-gardai-on-duty-during-night-of-attacks-2927107.html

How long before all these cut backs, under resourcing, substandard vehicles and the fact that uniformed Gardai are unarmed, directly results in the murder of another member of An Garda Siochana?

It's getting crazy out there and increasingly dangerous.

Something needs to be done.

Turner

Turner wrote: »

Something needs to be done.

People are too lazy to do anything. Of course a Garda will eventually be killed. And then another. And another.

The shock will wear off and death will be part of the job description. (Of course this won't start happening overnight, but that's the way it's clearly heading).


Too many suspended sentences, incompetent judges and judicial system, etc. Pity we can't outsource AGS to some hard and heavy handed American Police force.

All of the "think of the children" silliness aside, legally being able to dish out a good wallop here and there would do AGS the world of good. It's clearly all the scumbags understand.

Number of prisoners to a cell in mountjoy should be upped as well. Prison should have no comfort. It's supposed to be a deterrant.

All of these little things would combine to make a massive difference in my opinion, but of course nothing will change.

Turner

Turner wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/just-14-gardai-on-duty-during-night-of-attacks-2927107.html

How long before all these cut backs, under resourcing, substandard vehicles and the fact that uniformed Gardai are unarmed, directly results in the murder of a member of An Garda Siochana?

It's getting crazy out there and increasingly dangerous.

Something needs to be done.

Robert McCallion

Gary McLoughlin

There are more over the years. Don't be suprised if more die.

Corruptable

Why aren't these scumbags being taken off the street? I'd imagine if they tried this joyriding hit and run crap in the States they wouldn't be long before they'd receive a bullet due to the risk it poses to the life of officers and citizens in their path.

Why isn't there a mandatory custodial sentence for assaulting gardai? Why do Judges feel that they have to give everyone who appears before them a discount on their sentence, like some kind of till operator applying a discount?

It's not a human rights or civil liberties issue. When a person hits a garda or drives a vehicle at one, they know there is a consequence of that. I'm sure someone will come on and say, "but gardai will then have people convicted of assault at a controversial protest if someone buts a hand on a member", but that's the point, common sense dictates that you don't shove or push another, especially not someone who is acting in the course of his/her lawful duty.

The sentence should be dealt with on a case by case basis, but whether the person gets six days or six years, the person knows that it's not acceptable to lay hands on a garda and that there will be consequences for that action.

Corruptable

Corruptable wrote: »

Why isn't there a mandatory custodial sentence for assaulting gardai?

Because it sounds like it might involve a bit of effort.


At the start of the year I sent out emails to everyone involved with the govt. in my area (you know the way Fine Gael and the likes have local representatives and all that lark? I'm not the most educated on the government system, now, but i pestered my local TDs and got little to no response, except one email saying I should be taking my issue to some other govt. department (can't remember off hand, but i remember the email being worded very vaguely and generically so not to be of any use whatsoever).

My 'issue', by the way, was about introducing mandatory minimum sentencing to the irish judicial system (so that every crime had a minimum sentence which must be laid on the committer of the offence, unless it could be proved without doubt that the person acted in goodwill/had good intention/or self defence).

So my 'issue' was a little complex, in that it would require a couple of days thinking about how to enforce it and how the punishment should be worked and tiered (you can't issue the same punishement for stealing milk as you can for murdering someone, for example).

(so it wasn't just Garda-related offences I was talking about, it was everything).


I actually get around the town quite a bit more now than I did back then, and I see TDs and such around the place these days. Must start wrecking heads and writing letters and emails again, about it. Would love to have it introduced.

Imagine having a deterrant. A reason to not commit a crime. Just doesn't seem like Ireland at all.

Turner

foreign wrote: »

Robert McCallion

Gary McLoughlin

There are more over the years. Don't be suprised if more die.

Fixed my original post.

Turner wrote: »

results in the murder of another member of An Garda Siochana?

CB19Kevo

This is not a case of one incident in one area it can be repeated throughout urban areas countrywide.
The reality is that the Garda have been under equipped and under staffed for many years and yes i do mean pre recession.
Its the culture of '' what can we get by with '' as opposed to '' how hard can we hit the criminals ''.
And KKV makes a great point as i know and thus the thugs out there know that they can likely get a easy ride through the courts if they go with the story of a Broken home, peer pressure, Effects of alcohol/drugs and lack of community groups:rolleyes:
WHY SHOULD ANY OF THAT HAVE MAJOR BEARING ON A CASE .............
yes it should come into play on how you try to break the cycle of crime and assesment of the person in prison aswell as monitoring after release but to have the courts bending backwards based on circumstances such as those is in my view justifying criminal behaviour in those circumstances.

What i am referring to i will outline below:
If tonight i drank a litre of vodka and went about smashing up a ex girlfriends car and then assaulted her brother when he came out to stop me.
The fact that i would have consumed alcohol seems to be a big factor or DEFENSE :eek: when before the courts.
Why is this the case. Yes i may have never caused trouble before but it would have been me who decided to drink the vodka and me who ultimatly caused the damage.

Courts need to GET REAL, the reality is that the system is a joke and there is no major detterant.

Reform or the future of our society could be bleak....

audidiesel

with reoccurring experience of the irish legal system and the courts in particular i despair.

but the fact remains we have no place to put prisoners.

thornton hall would have gone a long way to solving this issue but everyone kicked up about it.

personally id be in favour of a 5,000 - 10,000 person supermax prison. taken lock stock from the us. then use it. if people seek rehabilitation then facilitate that. but if not, essentially lock them in a cell for 23 hours a day with just books to read. no tv or ps3's.

you could reclassify limerick cork and portlaois then to lower security prisons for lesser offenders as they would have capacity then.

until we have a place to put prisoners in this country theres no point talking about sentencing. they will all be out on tr anyways

TylerIE

Deleted User wrote: »

I actually get around the town quite a bit more now than I did back then, and I see TDs and such around the place these days. Must start wrecking heads and writing letters and emails again, about it. Would love to have it introduced.

Imagine having a deterrant. A reason to not commit a crime. Just doesn't seem like Ireland at all.

Alan Shatter is taking Parliamentary Questions later in the month if you want to ask your TDs to ask him anything!

audidiesel

audidiesel wrote: »

with reoccurring experience of the irish legal system and the courts in particular i despair.

but the fact remains we have no place to put prisoners.

thornton hall would have gone a long way to solving this issue but everyone kicked up about it.

personally id be in favour of a 5,000 - 10,000 person supermax prison. taken lock stock from the us. then use it. if people seek rehabilitation then facilitate that. but if not, essentially lock them in a cell for 23 hours a day with just books to read. no tv or ps3's.

you could reclassify limerick cork and portlaois then to lower security prisons for lesser offenders as they would have capacity then.

until we have a place to put prisoners in this country theres no point talking about sentencing. they will all be out on tr anyways

Serious question: can we not send them to another country?

Ireland is expensive, and we're broke. Can we not demolish or sell Mountjoy (turn it into a block of flats or a shopping centre) and hire space in another prison in a different country, where it would cost a lot less to house a prisoner?

Say you've got Poland or Thailand or any such place (somewhere within Europe being more realistic), these are places that could house a prisoner (to a much less comfortable standard than the Irish prison service). We could pay the other country to take care of our prisoners (the costs required to feed them, etc.) and then a little extra for themselves for doing it (obviously they won't be taking our prisoners out of the goodness of their heart).

This could work out cheaper for us, as other countries aren't as expensive. We wouldn't need to recruit for prison guards for a long time as, once we send the prisoners off, we'll have excess prison guards in the country (they'll have no prison to guard).

Okay, admittedly, we still need a location to house people until they are found guilty of a crime (obviously you can't send them off until they're actually proven guilty), so we'd need a few prison guards for that.

The other prison guards, who are essentially defunct, could become Cell guards and front desks workers in Garda stations around the country (freeing up ever-wasted Garda time) and there could be a program installed within AGS wherein those who are both mentally and physically fit to become Gardaí have a transition period in which they can join the Garda service as full time Gardaí (and then take to the streets, instead of being in the station the whole time).

This'd be a pain in the ass for those looking to join AGS, as they'd now have a bucket load of people to get shortlisted into active duty, but ultimately it would save the country a fortune, give a genuine deterrant to criminals, put more Gardaí on duty in both clerical work and on the street, and free up Mountjoy to use for other commercial gain (what they could use it for I don't know, but I'm sure they'd think up something).

You also send these scumbags to another country, so you're helping another economy aswell as your own, as they'd be getting paid to take care of said slimeballs.

Do a deal with Ryanair or some other cheap as chips airline to make adjustments to their planes to ensure it's safe to bring prisoners on their aircraft, and there's an aviation contract in there too for whoever wants to try and get (thus you're helping an airline, too!).


Seems like a win/win/win to me. The only real loser is the criminal, but he's a loser anyway, so who cares. He shouldn't have committed the crime in the first place.


*raises hand* Can I run the country, now, please.

mikemac

Deleted User wrote: »

The only real loser is the criminal, but he's a loser anyway, so who cares.

The criminal is doing time, doesn't matter to them where. A cell is a cell

It's the families who want to visit who are the losers

dermo88

Deleted User

Say you've got Poland or Thailand or any such place (somewhere within Europe being more realistic), these are places that could house a prisoner (to a much less comfortable standard than the Irish prison service)

I've a far better idea. We pack an aircraft with 50 of these offenders, with Army guards escorting them. They each have hand luggage of 100 grams of heroin each. It is sent to Singapore. Ireland pays the Singapore authorities 3,000-4,000 Euro each. Considering how much it costs to imprison each miscreant, it works.

The economics works. They are dealt with by the Singapore justice system for smuggling. As Joe Stalin said.

"Comrades, we have a problem"
"No more person....no more problem"

The Singaporeans can happily use whats left as shark bait.

Zambia

If a criminal gang tried this here they would be pulled to pieces.

The planned ambush of Police officers, the idea is abhorrent.

Stay safe out there.

Slippin Jimmy

It was a disgrace what happened to the two gardai on halloween night in Ballyfermot, and to those that were injured. These people are the scum of the earth. They don't deserve to breath the same air as us. It is terrible that gardai have to put themselves in harms way, and not hae the support that is required to bring them home to their families at the end of a shift. Resources should be unlimited to the guards, no excuses. They have an important job and it needs the full support of the goverment. Anybody that assaults a guard, weather it be spitting on them or hitting them should be locked up, no questions asked. Its an outrage what these people have to put up with in their job. If I had to deal with anything like this in mine, I wouldn't be doing it anymore.

Well done to all members of the force, you's are a credit to your community.

starviewadams

Sure the lad who organised it,according to rumours in the area,was only out of prison a few days at the time of the attacks.He has a concviction list as long as your arm too and all the local teenage scumbags round here look up to him like he's some sort of god.

Was talk of repeats of the Gallanstown riots of 1995 in the area before last Monday night,and I'm sure the local Gardai heard it too,ridiculous that just 14 members were expected to keep the peace on such a high profile night in a volatile area.

MagicSean

At the going rate, the Gardai will be a solely reactive organisation within months. The resources just aren't there for anything proactive. We will most likely see a severe reduction in compol and traffic units to cover the gaps in the regular.

Corruptable

MagicSean wrote: »

At the going rate, the Gardai will be a solely reactive organisation within months. The resources just aren't there for anything proactive. We will most likely see a severe reduction in compol and traffic units to cover the gaps in the regular.

That was the way it was in years previous, with delayed response times due to an endless stream of complaints that gardai had to follow up.

meathstevie

That kind of carry on would be received with a hail of Police bullets in a lot of places less than 2 hours flying from Dublin...

MagicSean

The fella who tried to kill the Garda in ballyfermot over halloween last year got three and a half years with two and a half suspended. No doubt he'll be out in 6 months max. He'll do less time in detention than she has spent being treated for her injuries.

pa990

MagicSean wrote: »

The fella who tried to kill the Garda in ballyfermot over halloween last year got three and a half years with two and a half suspended. No doubt he'll be out in 6 months max. He'll do less time in detention than she has spent being treated for her injuries.

imo, ags are second class citizens after after the srotes in the courts eyes.


my blood boils..

guttenberg

Have any of you properly researched the crime rates in American cities? Monday past was the first time in living memory that New York didn't have any murders/ knifing/ violent crime etc. so wanting an American police style attitude to law and order won't necessarily make Ireland safer, more than likely make it worse! Similarly, I wouldn't want AGS routinely armed, rather have more dedicated firearms units to call upon.

Serious question for you: I've nothing to do with AGS, but if me and Garda (enter any name here) got shot dead tomorrow: would you really be in favour of the Courts taking a harsher view of whoever killed the Guard rather than whoever killed me just because I'm not in uniform? That's what some of you seem to be wanting.

0325422

guttenberg wrote: »

Have any of you properly researched the crime rates in American cities? Monday past was the first time in living memory that New York didn't have any murders/ knifing/ violent crime etc. so wanting an American police style attitude to law and order won't necessarily make Ireland safer, more than likely make it worse! Similarly, I wouldn't want AGS routinely armed, rather have more dedicated firearms units to call upon.

Serious question for you: I've nothing to do with AGS, but if me and Garda (enter any name here) got shot dead tomorrow: would you really be in favour of the Courts taking a harsher view of whoever killed the Guard rather than whoever killed me just because I'm not in uniform? That's what some of you seem to be wanting.

Yes that's about it really..

source

guttenberg wrote: »

Have any of you properly researched the crime rates in American cities? Monday past was the first time in living memory that New York didn't have any murders/ knifing/ violent crime etc. so wanting an American police style attitude to law and order won't necessarily make Ireland safer, more than likely make it worse! Similarly, I wouldn't want AGS routinely armed, rather have more dedicated firearms units to call upon.

Serious question for you: I've nothing to do with AGS, but if me and Garda (enter any name here) got shot dead tomorrow: would you really be in favour of the Courts taking a harsher view of whoever killed the Guard rather than whoever killed me just because I'm not in uniform? That's what some of you seem to be wanting.

The difference between you and a garda in this example, is the garda goes out and puts his life on the line to protect the people of this country.

As such the murder of a garda is not just the murder of a garda. It is an attack on our society, and should be treated as such, with punishments that reflect the seriousness of the action.

MagicSean

guttenberg wrote: »

Have any of you properly researched the crime rates in American cities? Monday past was the first time in living memory that New York didn't have any murders/ knifing/ violent crime etc. so wanting an American police style attitude to law and order won't necessarily make Ireland safer, more than likely make it worse! Similarly, I wouldn't want AGS routinely armed, rather have more dedicated firearms units to call upon.

There just isn't the manpower to have two lads driving around in a car waiting to be called to a situation. Rather they be out doing the work of a normal Garda and being able to do it without needing assistance.

guttenberg wrote: »

Serious question for you: I've nothing to do with AGS, but if me and Garda (enter any name here) got shot dead tomorrow: would you really be in favour of the Courts taking a harsher view of whoever killed the Guard rather than whoever killed me just because I'm not in uniform? That's what some of you seem to be wanting.

Attacking a Garda generally has far more reaching consequences than attacking a person. That is the reason it should be treated harsher.

guttenberg

guttenberg wrote: »

Have any of you properly researched the crime rates in American cities? Monday past was the first time in living memory that New York didn't have any murders/ knifing/ violent crime etc. so wanting an American police style attitude to law and order won't necessarily make Ireland safer, more than likely make it worse! Similarly, I wouldn't want AGS routinely armed, rather have more dedicated firearms units to call upon.

Serious question for you: I've nothing to do with AGS, but if me and Garda (enter any name here) got shot dead tomorrow: would you really be in favour of the Courts taking a harsher view of whoever killed the Guard rather than whoever killed me just because I'm not in uniform? That's what some of you seem to be wanting.

But the population differences have to be taken into consideration too. If one in ten people commits a crime, and the US has ten times more people than Ireland, then they also have ten times more criminals (just using simple numbers to get the point across).

US heavy-handed policing is definitely the way forward in my opinion, especially here in Ireland. There's far too much "god love him, he was drunk at the time, he didn't really mean it" type nonsense in this country.


A year in prison for premeditating and deliberately driving a jeep into someone and pinning them against a wall, no doubt with intentions to kill (and not only kill them, but kill their co-workers, too, if given the chance) is an absolute disgusting state of affairs for any country.

The judge that made that sentencing should be removed immediately and formally disciplined, as he clearly is unfit for his position. Gross negligence.


What makes it worse is that if the Garda actually did get killed, I doubt the sentence would've been much harsher anyway.

What makes it even worse again, is that this sentence doesn't even surprise me. I'm pretty sure we all knew that the old slap on the wrist was all this scumbag was getting.


I'm extremely fond of AGS and the vast majority of Gardaí I've met have been genuinely nice people. But the whole organisation is redundant if the judicial system isn't on their side.

msg11

I can only comment saying; What another bizarre sentence the judges are after handing out again. To me it seems the judges either have things the wrong way around or the law is the wrong way around.

I mean, you sexual assault someone, give compo you can walk away. You try kill someone with a stolen car, let alone a Garda you get one year. Yet, if I say for example don't pay my television license I can get one year in prison also. It's just not adding up here, how is not paying your television license on par with attempting to murder someone with a stolen car and again let alone a Garda. The mind boggles.

While, I do believe people change and a harsh sentence to a lad of 16, some people suggesting throw away the key. I wouldn't believe in doing that he could change but not within a year he won't. He should have got at leased 10 years, he would be out when he is 26/27 hopefully had time to think and change his ways.

shar01

msg11 wrote: »

I can only comment saying; What another bizarre sentence the judges are after handing out again. To me it seems the judges either have things the wrong way around or the law is the wrong way around.

Tongue in cheek - but is it my imagination that since the people voted to cut their pay, judges have been handing out ludicrous sentences...

Potential-Monke

I tell you this much, if i was stationed up there i would be looking for a transfer somewhere else or i'd quit. €450 odd a week is not worth that.

Seriously questioning my future in the job if it's starting to go like this. It's like a timebomb slowly ticking away until the eventual explosion, and that explosion will take the life of my colleagues, and possibly myself. 14 Gardai in a known trouble area on Halloween night, with a Yaris and a Mondeo. I know the money is not there, but this night is after costing/will continue to cost the state well beyond what a bit of OT for a few more members would have. But that's the bigger picture, and this government can't see the bigger picture.

You're reading it here, don't go complaining when the Gardai can't respond asap when you need them, we need the public to support us but we're not getting it, so don't expect us to come running (albeit it's more due to the fact that there isn't enough of us to come running).

Our Chief recently said to the station party that he's happy with the numbers we have. So either he hasn't a clue what's happening in his own Division, or he's been told blatant lies by his subordinates. He then, will in turn tell the Assistant Commissioner that everything is rosy, they will tell the Deputy Commissioner, who will tell the Commissioner, who tells that useless prick Shatter that everything is fine.

MagicSean said it true, the force is now becoming reactive rather than proactive again. If i didn't have a mortgage i'd quit tomorrow.

goldie fish

Saw a report in the papers today of an ex member who was awarded €3/4m as a result of the suffering he experienced following being injured after a stolen car rammed a patrol car.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/garda-who-suffered-back-injury-in-car-chase-awarded-789000-215658.html


This is the ultimate cost of the DoJ and GS management penny pinching when it comes to garda Operations.

MagicSean

Potential-Monke wrote: »

MagicSean said it true, the force is now becoming reactive rather than proactive again. If i didn't have a mortgage i'd quit tomorrow.

I don't think you'd be alone. Some of the more high stress areas are putting a lot of strain on members. The new rosters have helped so hopefully there'll be more improvements in this area.

MagicSean

goldie fish wrote: »

Saw a report in the papers today of an ex member who was awarded €3/4m as a result of the suffering he experienced following being injured after a stolen car rammed a patrol car.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/garda-who-suffered-back-injury-in-car-chase-awarded-789000-215658.html


This is the ultimate cost of the DoJ and GS management penny pinching when it comes to garda Operations.

I think PTSD might start being a bigger issue in the organisation, especially with regards to injuries on duty. There's a lot of pressure on members who get injured.

KwackerJack

Death Penalty for cold blooded murder....Id say that will solve a few issues!

Use of force for anti social behavior...Smack with a baton can do wonders!

More community service.....the embarassment will stop re-offenders

hobochris

Its sad to even say this, but I think the scumbags will have to target a Judge before Judges start doing their jobs and stop pandering to politicians and the bleeding heart's(most of whom probably change the tune when they become the victim).

the_syco

Deleted User wrote: »

Too many suspended sentences, incompetent judges and judicial system, etc. Pity we can't outsource AGS to some hard and heavy handed American Police force.

All of the "think of the children" silliness aside, legally being able to dish out a good wallop here and there would do AGS the world of good. It's clearly all the scumbags understand.

Number of prisoners to a cell in mountjoy should be upped as well. Prison should have no comfort. It's supposed to be a deterrant.

Agreed.

Deleted User wrote: »

Imagine having a deterrant. A reason to not commit a crime. Just doesn't seem like Ireland at all.

You mean so that the criminals get put in prisons, instead of the victims living in their own prison? Could see it happening. If you asked me two years ago, I would have said "no way", but since the bit that allows us a bit more leeway in defending our house, maybe it may come in that criminals actually get imprisoned?

audidiesel wrote: »

but the fact remains we have no place to put prisoners.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltee_Islands

The waters around the islands can be treacherous, hence the area is known as the "Graveyard of a Thousand Ships" and the islands their tombstones.

Sounds great. Lets build a prison on it, and ship people to it. I'm sure wind power would be able to power the prison guards quarters?

shar01 wrote: »

Tongue in cheek - but is it my imagination that since the people voted to cut their pay, judges have been handing out ludicrous sentences...

Yes. They've been handing out stupid sentences when they got paid megabucks, well before their paycut.

hobochris wrote: »

Its sad to even say this, but I think the scumbags will have to target a Judge before Judges start doing their jobs and stop pandering to politicians and the bleeding heart's(most of whom probably change the tune when they become the victim).

When the judges start getting gunned down, they may start thinking that longer sentences are a good idea. Maybe.

=-=

I think 300 officers (that have been on the force for at least 10 years, have no strikes against them, and have a calm temper) should be sent over to the ERU, and given SMG's. And 800 police trained in their place. Less bobbys on the beat equals more break-ins.

carzony

I live very near to Cherry orchard and it really is a dump full of horses walking freely around the streets,delinquent kids and anytime past 6pm your bound to come across several fires that the kids have started. The other night I was driving theough, stopped at a round about and a young fella comes towards me in a stolen colt and didnt care less, I have never seen such mad driving in my entire life, I thought the car was gonna flip..

I was there when all this happened last year and even though the Ballyfermot Gardai had lots of support from lucan and clondalkin Garda stations they were still out numbered by the scum.

I know these aint great videos but it'd give some idea what it was like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQu1yg7G3QU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Up-eb4Ptb24 This was the jeep that nearly crushed the Garda, I think he actually rammed another car in this video (As I said quality is bad but you get the idea what it was like with the people scraming all sorts in the back ground and all that)

mikemac1

I've heard about "ride alongs" on US TV shows, yes I know it's TV

You take some local students out for a few hours and watch and learn a typical shift

How about Irish judges head out for a few hours and see what residents in troublesome estates have to deal with?
Or what a squad car on their own for a large area have to manage.

Maybe it would change nothing or maybe a judge in their fine house in a gated estate with private security would see something new

CB19Kevo

Sure what did anyone here really expect, The system is broke and until there is a overhaul we will not see the appropriate results.

Some people seem to think that crime cannot be shut down but in reality it just takes a lot of resources and good legislation which is actually used.

Would it really be such a big inconvenience on government to take a serious look at crime in this country and actually invest in policing and drug/drink/mental health services...