US drones target people whose true identity is unknown

cyberhog

A piece in the WSJ about Obama's beloved drone stikes makes a startling revelation

Signature strikes target groups of men believed to be militants associated with terrorist groups, but whose identities aren't always known. The bulk of CIA's drone strikes are signature strikes.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204621904577013982672973836.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Killing a person when you have not established their true identity is an act of pure evil. It grieves me to see that the US has become a sick nation every bit as vicious as anything that happens in dictatorships.

AhSureTisGrand

Didn't they only know Bin Laden's identity after they killed him?

matthew8

The whole drone affair is utterly shameful. However moral it is to parachute troops in and get them to shoot targets, these drones are ridiculous, inaccurate and often end up killing civilians. And Obama loves them.

Overheal

cyberhog wrote: »

Killing a person when you have not established their true identity is an act of pure evil.

Pure Evil? I'd have thought sinister or dubious. I put Pure Evil in with skinning the flesh off live babies or microwaving kittens.

laoch na mona

as always the Americans are a shining example of justice and democracy

Overheal

You actually read the article though right?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204621904577013982672973836.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

"U.S. Tightens Drone Rules " - hmmm.

Manic Moran

I never ask the name of anyone before I shoot them. It doesn't seem particularly relevant to me. I'm more worried about if they're the opposition or not.

The article doesn't seem to be concerned with an issue of hitting innocents, but of the issue of conducting unpopular strikes in Pakistan without being able to put a 'brand name' on the target.

NTM

cyberhog

Overheal wrote: »

You actually read the article though right?

Did you?

“It’s not like they took the car keys away from the CIA,” the Journal quoted a senior official as saying. “There are just more people in the car.”

Overheal

cyberhog wrote: »

Did you?

Yes I see that part where it says no they arent pulling the plug on drone strikes but they are adding more checks and balances into them. Whats the problem here?

cyberhog

Overheal wrote: »

Yes I see that part where it says no they arent pulling the plug on drone strikes but they are adding more checks and balances into them. Whats the problem here?

The problem here is your naivety in thinking that "checks and balances" have been introduced that will force the CIA to stop killing people "whose identities aren't always known."

Mr. Obama finally intervened to “raise the bar” a bit on strikes. But not by a lot. Under a revamped set of procedures, the CIA has to listen to State Department concerns before launching a strike, though the CIA still has the final decision. Washington will try and keep the Pakistan government better informed — i.e. if a strike is expected to kill more than 20 people. And the drones won’t blow up anybody when Pakistani leaders are visiting Washington.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/11/04/drone-happy-obama-urged-to-ease-up-on-pakistan/

karma_

No country in the world carries out more international killing on a daily basis than the USA, yet no one bats an eyelid.

simplistic2

karma_ wrote: »

No country in the world carries out more international killing on a daily basis than the USA, yet no one bats an eyelid.

Most people were and still are educated in government schools, you think the ruling psychopaths are going to want ethics on the curriculum?

Jonny7

cyberhog wrote: »

A piece in the WSJ about Obama's beloved drone stikes makes a startling revelation

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204621904577013982672973836.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Killing a person when you have not established their true identity is an act of pure evil. It grieves me to see that the US has become a sick nation every bit as vicious as anything that happens in dictatorships.

I don't get what the shocking deal is here.. the Pakistani army attacks Taliban, doesn't know their individual identities. The US uses drones for the same. Obviously its not very effective because of the civilian casualties, but I have no idea why "knowing their identity" is an issue.

PS If I get another "splutter..rant.. the US is so evil!!11one" I'll just ignore.

cyberhog

Jonny7 wrote: »

I don't get what the shocking deal is here..

The shocking deal here is that the US is killing people based on nothing more than a suspicion they are associated with terrorist groups without truly knowing if they are in fact legitamite targets. That is why innocent civilians are being killed by the drones. Now the problem with Obama's new restrictions is that they are not going to significantly alter what is a fundamentally evil policy.

Jonny7 wrote: »

PS If I get another "splutter..rant.. the US is so evil!!11one" I'll just ignore.

PS There has been a huge rise in anti-American outrage in Pakistan over the drones, it wouldn't be wise to ignore it.

jackiebaron

cyberhog wrote: »

The shocking deal here is that the US is killing people based on nothing more than a suspicion they are associated with terrorist groups without truly knowing if they are in fact legitamite targets. That is why innocent civilians are being killed by the drones. Now the problem with Obama's new restrictions is that they are not going to significantly alter what is a fundamentally evil policy.



PS There has been a huge rise in anti-American outrage in Pakistan over the drones, it wouldn't be wise to ignore it.

Cy, it's best to ignore Jonny. If US forces were herding civilians into gas chambers he'd find some way of justifying it. Either he's a shill or just can't handle the truth.

Jonny7

cyberhog wrote: »

The shocking deal here is that the US is killing people based on nothing more than a suspicion they are associated with terrorist groups without truly knowing if they are in fact legitamite targets. That is why innocent civilians are being killed by the drones. Now the problem with Obama's new restrictions is that they are not going to significantly alter what is a fundamentally evil policy.

You're getting it all twisted up. Drones are used to attack militants as well as specialist targets ("terrorists", Al Qaeda, etc). Unless we're talking different situations, the US/NATO/etc are attacking and killing unidentified combatants, and vice versa. Pretty much the same throughout the history of warfare.

Disclaimer: in my opinion drones shouldn't be used for anything but surveillance

PS There has been a huge rise in anti-American outrage in Pakistan over the drones, it wouldn't be wise to ignore it.

Its not being ignored, its been at the forefront of US-Pakistan relations for 5 or 6 years now.

Manic Moran

cyberhog wrote: »

The shocking deal here is that the US is killing people based on nothing more than a suspicion they are associated with terrorist groups without truly knowing if they are in fact legitamite targets.

They are aiming to kill only legitimate targets. A hundred guys with RPGs, for example, would be a 'signature' target, they wouldn't need to know the names of everyone (or even just one person) present.

At least such signature targets tend to have, well, a signature. It's the ones where they're trying to get a specific known person which are the ones most likely to end up killing innocents.

NTM

cyberhog

Manic Moran wrote: »

They are aiming to kill only legitimate targets.
NTM

Pakistan's growing anger over drone strikes would suggest the US have not been successful enough in that endeavour.

Matt Holck

I don't want to live in a world where drones airplanes are allowed to assassinate people

Hollywood nightmare

Terminator 1 & 2 - Future Warfare (Mixed and Edited)

Overheal

Matt Holck wrote: »

I don't want to live in a world where drones airplanes are allowed to assassinate people

Hollywood nightmare

Terminator 1 & 2 - Future Warfare (Mixed and Edited)

Yes, hollywood. They love to dramatize. These drones aren't exactly Self Aware or anything, or anything approaching the definition of AI which requires a critically large factor of being able to Learn by itself. We're far from Terminator or even that ridiculous movie Stealth.

Matt Holck

the violence of the drone is not an over dramatization

smurgen

Overheal wrote: »

Yes, hollywood. They love to dramatize. These drones aren't exactly Self Aware or anything, or anything approaching the definition of AI which requires a critically large factor of being able to Learn by itself. We're far from Terminator or even that ridiculous movie Stealth.

Since when do you need self awarness to cause carnage? how about this example of the hypersonic plane that went missing? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/11/us-air-force-hypersonic-glider-_n_924445.html granted it self detenated, but what if a scenario happened where it didn't and was travelling around at 16,000 mph? Would it be acceptable for america if other countries all over the world were using such drones?